King Mark 3,748 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 For the longest of time I thought the rebel fanfare was the Empire's theme for Star Wars because it is used in militaristic way in Imperial Attack and Approaching the Death Star.Could it have a double use? Has Williams ever commented on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,974 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 The bellicose statement in Imperial Attack always seemed to me playing the scene from the perspective of the Rebel forces -- they're preparing themselves for the boarding party, hence the sense of dread.Has anyone given a name for the motif that plays when the Star Destroyer moves over the screen and Luke fires into the Death Star - the chords lifted from Holst? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,169 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 The opening statement of the fanfare is curious because its association is certainly not unambiguous.You could say it's one of those uses of a leitmotif that simply has the right emotional sweep for the scene, like how Leia's theme is used after Ben is killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 40,305 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 The Rebel Fanfare is always used as a good guy theme. Not sure how you associated it with the bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,974 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Pretty certain the only imperial motifs in SW are the ones for the Stormtroopers and the Death Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oierem 188 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Except for the opening sequence in the first movie, I'd say the theme is more associated with the "good guys" (Luke, Han, Leia...) rather than with the Rebel Alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,488 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 The theme in SW actually poses interesting questions to the audience?Who are the rebels? Are they really the heroes? Or is is the Empire, forced to take drastic measures after decades of terrorism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,488 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 They are led by a Princess! If that doesnt reek of Imperialism, i dont know what does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,748 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 It is used somehow in a menacing way in MainTitle/Rebel Blockade Runner, and its use in The Death Star/The Stormtroopers, aYes, especially as the falcon is swallowed by the death star, it plays the loudest of the film and sounds like a military theme. For a similar shot in TESB you'd have the Imperial March playingI thought it was the Empire's theme (for Star Wars) for a long time, until it was explained in c.d. liner notes or read it online at some point.It was briefly quoted in TESB but I still didn't make the connection to the rebels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 40,305 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 It was briefly quoted in TESB but I still didn't make the connection to the rebelsIt's used more than just briefly in TESB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Given that it consists entirely of major chords, I think even its most militaristic statements carry positive connotations. Its (non antagonistic) use as counterpoint to Leia's theme in the end credits confirms the extramusical association. steb74 and Docteur Qui 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 5,419 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I'd say the Empire already had two themes all its own. The sinister, minor key theme used for the Stormtroopers, and heard when Ben recounts the story of Darth Vader to Luke. And the ascending 4 note motif used whenever the Death Star is shown (just after the Falcon goes to lightspeed, and before Vader interrogates Leia). I don't think the Rebel Fanfare was meant to be a third theme for the bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,974 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Basically every time the 'good guys' are pulled in by a tractor beam, the Rebel Fanfare is played as as militaristic march. There is actually another Imperial motif I've forgotten - those chugging polytonal chords for the Stormtroopers - usually an accompaniment for their motif. It features in about two or three cues. @1:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith McKay 7,071 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Isn't that the stravinsky thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 966 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Always seemed to me to be the good guy theme. Never considered it anything else. Darker or more militaristic variations aside, it has too much a sense of fun and excitement to be related to the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,343 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 And its use throught the saga more than reaffirms this. Really, I don't think this is even open to interpreation. As for some less obvious or apparently incoherent uses of the fanfare, Williams has used themes outside their regular setting for pure dramatic effect (Leia's theme in Ben's Death, Yoda's theme when Boba Fett escapes from Cloud City, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith McKay 7,071 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 But Leia was in the scene! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith McKay 7,071 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Actually, that was highlighting that Luke was putting Yoda's teachings into action, and connecting with Yoda's warning prior him leaving Dagobah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith McKay 7,071 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yoda teached him to rush towards danger without a proper plan, thinking straight or anything, get shot at and fall into a trap? Yeah, right!Taught.Also, are we talking about Return of the Jedi or ESB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith McKay 7,071 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 "I am going to sacrifice my sister, droids, best friends friend, and Lando to do...what exactly?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,748 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 It was briefly quoted in TESB but I still didn't make the connection to the rebelsIt's used more than just briefly in TESB...where? I only remember one quote when they fire the ion cannonI don't think that KM was saying that the Rebel Fanfare was another motif for the Empire (at least, that's not I interpret his originally post), rather that the Rebel Fanfare is a "generic" theme not necessarily meant for one faction or the other. Some sort of "war" motif, or something like that.Though, as Marcus pointed out, the fact that it's used in Princess Leia's Theme is an indication that it's for the Alliance.I mistook it for a theme for the Empire in watching the film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steb74 53 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It was briefly quoted in TESB but I still didn't make the connection to the rebelsIt's used more than just briefly in TESB...where? I only remember one quote when they fire the ion cannonThere's also 'Betrayal at Bespin' at about 1.24 in the winds, it's also hinted at in the phrase before (IMO) but this one is obvious.I also think the brass work and flourishes, etc in 'Hyperspace' when dealing with the pursuit of the Falcon are a variation on it, a less developed rag and bone kind of version for the most unlikely of alliances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,488 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Is the theme ever used for a scene when the Empire isnt there? Apart from the Sailbarge Assault rescore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 5,419 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 My favorite quote in ESB is when Luke throws the grenade into the Walker's underbelly. Magnificent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The variation in "Imperial Attack" seems interupted by the Holst hits--like the empire is disrupting the rebel's chance at freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stravinsky 219 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 This is a fascinating topic and is all the more reason to marvel still at this amazing film score 40 years on. The music continues to give up it's secrets. I watched the old movie again last Friday and noticed that there is traction in King Mark's idea. I noticed that a tiny reference to the "rebel fanfare" is utilised (after biblical chords when the Death Star has exploded) as Vader regains control of his starship and flies off into space. The moment happens at 8:46 in the "Battle of Yavin". Truly fascinating. Listening to this music since I was 11 I must confess this connotation escaped me. Until now. John Williams is the daddy of them all and the day I met and worked with him is a treasured though bittersweet memory I shall never forget. How lucky are all of us now to know we'll receive a brand new Star Wars score by the master for Christmas. Happy days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dimitrescu 9,117 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 24/03/2014 at 1:39 PM, Sharky said: Has anyone given a name for the motif that plays when the Star Destroyer moves over the screen and Luke fires into the Death Star - the chords lifted from Holst? Is that really a motif or is it just suspense music? artguy360 and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,663 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Perhaps Williams left the theme slightly ambiguous, as there are heroes on both sides. aviazn and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,974 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, Daniel Clamp said: Is that really a motif or is it just suspense music? Why can't it be both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,169 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 The statement of the Rebel Fanfare with Vader after the explosion can be misinterpreted if viewed out of context. The theme is more than just a "good guy" theme, it's more of a "good guys in trouble" theme. This is how it appears in most statements in the film, especially the most prominent ones like in the opening sequence or as the Falcon gets caught in the Death Star's tractor beam. There are one or two statements where it appears with the good guys alone, like after the big Force theme statement in the binary sunset scene, but these only reinforce its good-guy association. With all this in mind, hearing it with Vader spin out of control at the end would only suggest how the Rebels have struggled against him, not that it somehow signifies the Empire. By the way, in the liner notes to the original LP for Star Wars, Williams identifies several "themes" from the score: those for Leia, Luke, Ben, and the Death Star, but he also identifies a theme for Vader (by which I presume he means the music with Vader's entrance) and the Jawas. It's strange that he doesn't mention the Rebel Fanfare or the Imperial Motif (or even the Stormtroopers' music) but does mention music that probably doesn't register as a theme for most here (Vader) and another span of music that, while fulfilling the criterion of returning in the score, isn't one of the film's most prominent themes (Jawas). This is why the saga could really use a clear and comprehensive, Doug-Adams-style treatment of all its themes. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,748 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 47 minutes ago, Ludwig said: By the way, in the liner notes to the original LP for Star Wars, Williams identifies several "themes" from the score: those for Leia, Luke, Ben, and the Death Star, but he also identifies a theme for Vader (by which I presume he means the music with Vader's entrance) and the Jawas. It's strange that he doesn't mention the Rebel Fanfare or the Imperial Motif (or even the Stormtroopers' music) yeah so basically that is open to interpretation that the "rebel fanfare" could be the Empire's/Darth Vader's theme rebel fanfare never plays when the Rebels are "winning" .It's heard as they flee the star destroyer, as they get captured on the Tantive V, when the falcon enter the Death Star (with big militaristic orchestration) , when the TIE fighter shoot at them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,576 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I think that interpretation wilfully ignores the incredibly heroic and romantic statements of the theme in the End Titles. It couldn't be further from villainy at the beginning of the credits, and that statement on strings/horns at 4:58 wraps up all the heroics and romantic action in a few seconds. Considering it was the first major foray for JW (and many composers) into Wagner-esque leitmotif territory I don't think it's fair to assume that the themes of the score only represent what you're seeing on-screen. As many others have noted, it could be just as (if not more) easily interpreted as a "heroes in peril" kind of motif. The way it's structured (parallel major triads) also implies a more heroic idea - contrast that with the Imperial March which is comprised of minor triads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DominicCobb 195 Posted February 25, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2017 I can't believe this debate persists. Thinking the Rebel fanfare is an Imperial theme is pretty damn silly. Also, I thought Williams's theme for Vader (in the liner notes) referred to the Imperial motif. For reference: Quote Darth Vader's Theme: Long ago, Darth Vader betrayed Ben Kenobi and the Jedi Knights. Now Vader represents the bad side of the Force. For his theme, l use a lot of bassoons and muted trombones and other sorts of low sounds. Bryant Burnette, DarthDementous and artguy360 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,169 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 7 hours ago, DominicCobb said: Also, I thought Williams's theme for Vader (in the liner notes) referred to the Imperial motif. Good call - I agree. It's strange, though, that he calls it Vader's theme when it doesn't occur with his big entrance and when it does occur with him onscreen, it's usually pretty subdued. Perhaps he thought the motif better suited to underscore than big presentations, especially since he seems to associate it with softer, muted sounds as he says in the notes. And that's probably why (in addition to Vader's larger role in the film, as he has said) he felt the need to write Vader a new theme for the sequel - thank goodness! RICHARDSTRAUSS68 and Pieter Boelen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,275 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 I'd also like to add that in the finale suite of ANH its played counter-point to Leia's theme, a key figure of the Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,488 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 On 25-2-2017 at 6:31 AM, king mark said: rebel fanfare never plays when the Rebels are "winning" . The Rebel Fanfare plays out after the Death Star has been destroyed. Seriously, man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,488 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 But The Empire isnt in TFA, yet the theme is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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