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Can someone give me some info on the score for "Monsignor"? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned, and just wanted to know what a common opinion of the score would be. It was made during his golden period, and understand it was nominated for a Razzie. So what's the deal??

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True story: I bought this CD about ten years ago when I was in high school, and was listening to it on the school bus one day when a stoner kid sat down next to me. Even through my headphones I could

Yes LSO and the legendary Maurice Murphy performing the trumpet solos. And yes the superficial and fleeting similarity between the Godfather trumpet theme and Monsignor's main theme doesn't really bo

This Gloria chick must be really ugly.

It's a remarkable score. One of my favorites. Got it in 1983 between E.T. and Jedi. Williams was in top form indeed.

I think it was nominated for a razzie because it doesn't work well with the film (an understatement). The film is mediocre and the music actually makes it worse. The music is so wonderful it stands out and literally crushes the film. A rare occurence in Williams' body of work.

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It's a remarkable score. One of my favorites. Got it in 1983 between E.T. and Jedi. Williams was in top form indeed.

I think it was nominated for a razzie because it doesn't work well with the film (an understatement). The film is mediocre and the music actually makes it worse. The music is so wonderful it stands out and literally crushes the film. A rare occurence in Williams' body of work.

What other Williams score would you say this one resembles?

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It only sounds like THE GODFATHER in the opening title (trumpet dirge vs. cimbalon), the final track brackets in with piano and strings that sound decidedly more like ANGELA'S ASHES & JANE EYRE (this kind of Williams sound). But like some other JW scores, the movie and score feel disconnected at times - usually a sign that Williams wasn't sufficiently happy with the assignment.

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"Gloria"-us score! The film, however, is rather bad, but who cares as long as it begets such a wonderful Williams score.

Someone refresh my memory -- was the "Esplanade Overture" based on "Meeting in Sicily" or was it the other way around?

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"Gloria"-us score! The film, however, is rather bad, but who cares as long as it begets such a wonderful Williams score.

Someone refresh my memory -- was the "Esplanade Overture" based on "Meeting in Sicily" or was it the other way around?

From what I remember it was the other way around, because Williams didn't have much time to write the score..

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It only sounds like THE GODFATHER in the opening title (trumpet dirge vs. cimbalon), the final track brackets in with piano and strings that sound decidedly more like ANGELA'S ASHES & JANE EYRE (this kind of Williams sound). But like some other JW scores, the movie and score feel disconnected at times - usually a sign that Williams wasn't sufficiently happy with the assignment.

That's right. The way he plays with the theme later in the score (At The Forum) is more stylistically close to Jane Eyre and Angela's Ashes. The disconnect between the 3 thematic ideas is more of a sign that Williams didn't care much for the project. Still has some great stuff in it though.

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Gloria used to be the one cue I found difficult. I have come to appreciate it for the impressive piece of music it is. It is supposed to stand out and it really does!

As for the comments about Monsignor and the Godfather, as far as I am concerned I see no connection whatsoever. And I have great admiration for both Godfather scores.

Italy + trumpet solo = similar? That's a little thin for me.

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It's definitely not muted

I gotta say, the trumpet solo is beautifully performed. Is this the LSO?

Yes LSO and the legendary Maurice Murphy performing the trumpet solos. :)

And yes the superficial and fleeting similarity between the Godfather trumpet theme and Monsignor's main theme doesn't really bother me one bit. If anything the end credits variation of the main theme (heard as the opening track of the album) has structurally much more in common with the way Williams constructed The Fury Theme development-wise. I guess it is the way he hears a waltz theme developed.

Gloria is a fantastic piece of work with the attention calling choral opening borderlining a scream but I love how it slowly develops into the majestic soaring and jubilant conclusion when the orchestra joins fully in. Most of all I like how the thematic ideas relate to the religioso writing found in the rest of the score. The final two tracks, Santoni's Compassion and At the Forum round out the score in a best possible way I think.

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Most of all I like how the thematic ideas relate to the religioso writing found in the rest of the score.

They do?

I am naturally speaking of the different ideas used in the Gloria as there are several sections to it. Audience with the Holy Father and Santoni's Compassion feature these same thematic strands.

The score has 3 distinctive themes running through it, the main theme expressing yearning, the religioso faith theme and the dazzlingly energetic travelling theme and Williams has the luxury of devoting nearly entire tracks to develop each. It is one of the reasons that I find that this score works so brilliantly on album and flows effortlessly.

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.

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Knowing if there is thematic material missing out of the CD really would make a difference between if there is a cohesion to the score or if it's vignettes not connected together.

I still think this is a score part of Williams' gothic era, it feels like Dracula, just replace the horns by strings.

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Knowing if there is thematic material missing out of the CD really would make a difference between if there is a cohesion to the score or if it's vignettes not connected together.

I still think this is a score part of Williams' gothic era, it feels like Dracula, just replace the horns by strings.

The amount of missing material is only about 4 or 5 minutes I believe so I don't know if it would make much different cohesion-wise.

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.

Did i tell you i hate that cue? ;)

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.

I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score.

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.

I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score.

I wouldn't call it disconnect as such. If the three elements are distinctive and have clear narrative purposes that do not cross the themes do not necessarily interact all that much. Undoubtedly it would add another layer to the music if they did interact but I am completely fine with the score as it is.

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Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone!

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Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone!

Haven't you sampled it anywhere in the net beforehand my good man?

And although we have some dissenting voices here asking whether to buy a John Williams score on a John Williams forum usually leads to the recommendation anyway. ;)

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I don't understand how this can be labelled a 'lesser work'. Maybe lesser in the sense of its lack of fame and the shoddy film it accompanies, but certainly not lesser in a musical sense. Compared to most of his 60s efforts, it's a masterpiece (although I enjoy those too for what they are).

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Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone!

Haven't you sampled it anywhere in the net beforehand my good man?

And although we have some dissenting voices here asking whether to buy a John Williams score on a John Williams forum usually leads to the recommendation anyway. ;)

Ha ha, yeah-asking obvious fans of John Williams if I should get a particular score is a little silly. I was on the fence about getting it anyway, and just needed that extra push.

And yes, I have heard a couple of tracks on YouTube and liked it enough, I just wanted more input from y'all. Thanks again!

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I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.

Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.

I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score.

Then A.I., JFK and Empire of the Sun are also lesser scores? They are quite disparate too.

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Alright, I received the soundtrack yesterday and gave it a listen last night. It was even better than I was expecting! Sure, it won't crack my top 10, but the sound and themes were quite impressive. Although I wasn't too nuts about "Gloria" as others seem to be. (Tracks with vocals are never my favorite) And I would have never thought about The Godfather if someone else hadn't mentioned it. Thanks everyone again!

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Alright, I received the soundtrack yesterday and gave it a listen last night. It was even better than I was expecting! Sure, it won't crack my top 10, but the sound and themes were quite impressive. Although I wasn't too nuts about "Gloria" as others seem to be. (Tracks with vocals are never my favorite) And I would have never thought about The Godfather if someone else hadn't mentioned it. Thanks everyone again!

You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever!

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You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever!

Which is why I've never warmed up to Gloria. It almost seems a parody of choral music, but a brutal one.

Or perhaps it's time I gave it another chance, but that didn't help before.

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Hearing the main theme again since a long time, it makes me think more of The Fury than The Godfather.

Yeap. The main theme has a very similar pattern to the way it is developed and built through the piece.

You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever!

Which is why I've never warmed up to Gloria. It almost seems a parody of choral music, but a brutal one.

Or perhaps it's time I gave it another chance, but that didn't help before.

It is certainly not as "polished" as much of JWs choral writing but I guess it is partly the purpose of the piece as it underscores mental shock. It is for me the somewhat rough sound of the piece that is one of its interesting features. The narrative from the anguished opening and the gradual build-up to the jubilant finale works very well in my opinion but I quite easily understand if the piece is not to everyone's taste.

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There's a bit of the big chords from the E.T. finale in Gloria.That's how I recognized it was JW just by seeing a Monsignor TV spot

(back in the days, you didn't know who composed the score for a film unless you saw the name on the poster)

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It is certainly not as "polished" as much of JWs choral writing but I guess it is partly the purpose of the piece as it underscores mental shock. It is for me the somewhat rough sound of the piece that is one of its interesting features.

Ok, I have to admit that I have no idea what kind of scene it underscores. Taken on its own, it just seems to hysterical in a megalomaniac way. But perhaps that's entirely appropriate in context.

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