FilmManiac79 6 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Can someone give me some info on the score for "Monsignor"? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned, and just wanted to know what a common opinion of the score would be. It was made during his golden period, and understand it was nominated for a Razzie. So what's the deal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 it's great, except for the Godfather like main theme, which I don't like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud 6 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 It's a remarkable score. One of my favorites. Got it in 1983 between E.T. and Jedi. Williams was in top form indeed.I think it was nominated for a razzie because it doesn't work well with the film (an understatement). The film is mediocre and the music actually makes it worse. The music is so wonderful it stands out and literally crushes the film. A rare occurence in Williams' body of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmManiac79 6 Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 It's a remarkable score. One of my favorites. Got it in 1983 between E.T. and Jedi. Williams was in top form indeed.I think it was nominated for a razzie because it doesn't work well with the film (an understatement). The film is mediocre and the music actually makes it worse. The music is so wonderful it stands out and literally crushes the film. A rare occurence in Williams' body of work.What other Williams score would you say this one resembles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 The main title sounds like a Godfather parody and one of the pieces was actually originally composed as an unrelated concert work and shoehorned into the score. One of Williams' laziest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 That hack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I really like it. The main theme is definitely too godfathery, but the rest is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 A really lovely score and a terrific album on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 It only sounds like THE GODFATHER in the opening title (trumpet dirge vs. cimbalon), the final track brackets in with piano and strings that sound decidedly more like ANGELA'S ASHES & JANE EYRE (this kind of Williams sound). But like some other JW scores, the movie and score feel disconnected at times - usually a sign that Williams wasn't sufficiently happy with the assignment. KK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,499 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 "Gloria" is one of the greatest things that JW has ever composed. EVER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,471 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 "Gloria"-us score! The film, however, is rather bad, but who cares as long as it begets such a wonderful Williams score.Someone refresh my memory -- was the "Esplanade Overture" based on "Meeting in Sicily" or was it the other way around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,823 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 "Gloria"-us score! The film, however, is rather bad, but who cares as long as it begets such a wonderful Williams score.Someone refresh my memory -- was the "Esplanade Overture" based on "Meeting in Sicily" or was it the other way around?From what I remember it was the other way around, because Williams didn't have much time to write the score.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 It only sounds like THE GODFATHER in the opening title (trumpet dirge vs. cimbalon), the final track brackets in with piano and strings that sound decidedly more like ANGELA'S ASHES & JANE EYRE (this kind of Williams sound). But like some other JW scores, the movie and score feel disconnected at times - usually a sign that Williams wasn't sufficiently happy with the assignment.That's right. The way he plays with the theme later in the score (At The Forum) is more stylistically close to Jane Eyre and Angela's Ashes. The disconnect between the 3 thematic ideas is more of a sign that Williams didn't care much for the project. Still has some great stuff in it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I remember catching the film on TV when I was young..I heard Gloria and holy shit I wanted it. I even recorded the audio off the TV at some point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I remember catching the film on TV when I was young..I heard Gloria and holy shit I wanted it. I even recorded the audio off the TV at some pointHe can't be serious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,087 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Shirley he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,174 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 "Gloria" is one of the greatest things that JW has ever composed. EVER!!! I always found it too excessive and overbearing. Audience with the Holy Father is pretty awesome though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud 6 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Gloria used to be the one cue I found difficult. I have come to appreciate it for the impressive piece of music it is. It is supposed to stand out and it really does!As for the comments about Monsignor and the Godfather, as far as I am concerned I see no connection whatsoever. And I have great admiration for both Godfather scores.Italy + trumpet solo = similar? That's a little thin for me. crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 yeah I think it's the muted trumpet thing (or maybe it's a different kind of trumpet?)it doesn't sound like a trumpet solo like something from JFK though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's definitely not mutedI gotta say, the trumpet solo is beautifully performed. Is this the LSO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's definitely not mutedI gotta say, the trumpet solo is beautifully performed. Is this the LSO?Yes LSO and the legendary Maurice Murphy performing the trumpet solos. And yes the superficial and fleeting similarity between the Godfather trumpet theme and Monsignor's main theme doesn't really bother me one bit. If anything the end credits variation of the main theme (heard as the opening track of the album) has structurally much more in common with the way Williams constructed The Fury Theme development-wise. I guess it is the way he hears a waltz theme developed.Gloria is a fantastic piece of work with the attention calling choral opening borderlining a scream but I love how it slowly develops into the majestic soaring and jubilant conclusion when the orchestra joins fully in. Most of all I like how the thematic ideas relate to the religioso writing found in the rest of the score. The final two tracks, Santoni's Compassion and At the Forum round out the score in a best possible way I think. crlbrg and Tydirium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Most of all I like how the thematic ideas relate to the religioso writing found in the rest of the score.They do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Most of all I like how the thematic ideas relate to the religioso writing found in the rest of the score.They do?I am naturally speaking of the different ideas used in the Gloria as there are several sections to it. Audience with the Holy Father and Santoni's Compassion feature these same thematic strands.The score has 3 distinctive themes running through it, the main theme expressing yearning, the religioso faith theme and the dazzlingly energetic travelling theme and Williams has the luxury of devoting nearly entire tracks to develop each. It is one of the reasons that I find that this score works so brilliantly on album and flows effortlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Knowing if there is thematic material missing out of the CD really would make a difference between if there is a cohesion to the score or if it's vignettes not connected together.I still think this is a score part of Williams' gothic era, it feels like Dracula, just replace the horns by strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Knowing if there is thematic material missing out of the CD really would make a difference between if there is a cohesion to the score or if it's vignettes not connected together.I still think this is a score part of Williams' gothic era, it feels like Dracula, just replace the horns by strings.The amount of missing material is only about 4 or 5 minutes I believe so I don't know if it would make much different cohesion-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.Did i tell you i hate that cue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned.I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score.I wouldn't call it disconnect as such. If the three elements are distinctive and have clear narrative purposes that do not cross the themes do not necessarily interact all that much. Undoubtedly it would add another layer to the music if they did interact but I am completely fine with the score as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's no major work no matter how you slice it but at least it's reasonably slick. I once sat through the movie and i guess Williams must have felt like me: Lord, relieve my of my pains! Quick!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmManiac79 6 Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone!Haven't you sampled it anywhere in the net beforehand my good man?And although we have some dissenting voices here asking whether to buy a John Williams score on a John Williams forum usually leads to the recommendation anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I'd definitely recommend you check it out as well. Has some great stuff worth listening to. Just clearly not among his stronger works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9pCYRurmMY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 im going to revisit this score, right NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 im going to revisit this score, right NOW.Good! Good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,471 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I don't understand how this can be labelled a 'lesser work'. Maybe lesser in the sense of its lack of fame and the shoddy film it accompanies, but certainly not lesser in a musical sense. Compared to most of his 60s efforts, it's a masterpiece (although I enjoy those too for what they are). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmManiac79 6 Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Ok, I've been convinced. I ordered it a few minutes ago, and look forward to hearing it soon. I was afraid everyone was going to say it was awful, but even though opinions seem to be split I can't wait to give my opinion when it arrives. Thanks everyone!Haven't you sampled it anywhere in the net beforehand my good man?And although we have some dissenting voices here asking whether to buy a John Williams score on a John Williams forum usually leads to the recommendation anyway. Ha ha, yeah-asking obvious fans of John Williams if I should get a particular score is a little silly. I was on the fence about getting it anyway, and just needed that extra push. And yes, I have heard a couple of tracks on YouTube and liked it enough, I just wanted more input from y'all. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkensalat 336 Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I actually see no connection whatsoever between the mournful theme (=Godfather), the scherzo material (Prokoviev meets Dvorak) and the liturgical stuff. Not that it matters much, since thematic integrity isnt high on the agenda for a rightly-forgotten clunker like MONSIGNOR, but Williams sure wasn't much interested in creating a unified whole.Nope I didn't mean connection between those three themes (there isn't much of that I agree) but rather the musical ideas presented in Gloria that are developed in those cues I mentioned. I think that's the main weakness of this score. There's just 3 thematic ideas with their own variation. None of them interact in anyway, so there is a bit of a disconnect between the ideas of the score. It's Williams quickly wrote out 3 major ideas, and just varied them through out the score.Then A.I., JFK and Empire of the Sun are also lesser scores? They are quite disparate too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmManiac79 6 Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 Alright, I received the soundtrack yesterday and gave it a listen last night. It was even better than I was expecting! Sure, it won't crack my top 10, but the sound and themes were quite impressive. Although I wasn't too nuts about "Gloria" as others seem to be. (Tracks with vocals are never my favorite) And I would have never thought about The Godfather if someone else hadn't mentioned it. Thanks everyone again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,471 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Alright, I received the soundtrack yesterday and gave it a listen last night. It was even better than I was expecting! Sure, it won't crack my top 10, but the sound and themes were quite impressive. Although I wasn't too nuts about "Gloria" as others seem to be. (Tracks with vocals are never my favorite) And I would have never thought about The Godfather if someone else hadn't mentioned it. Thanks everyone again!You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Hearing the main theme again since a long time, it makes me think more of The Fury than The Godfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,174 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever! Which is why I've never warmed up to Gloria. It almost seems a parody of choral music, but a brutal one. Or perhaps it's time I gave it another chance, but that didn't help before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Hearing the main theme again since a long time, it makes me think more of The Fury than The Godfather.Yeap. The main theme has a very similar pattern to the way it is developed and built through the piece.You're the opposite of me, then. I adore tracks with vocals. In fact, choral music is some of my favourite music ever!Which is why I've never warmed up to Gloria. It almost seems a parody of choral music, but a brutal one.Or perhaps it's time I gave it another chance, but that didn't help before.It is certainly not as "polished" as much of JWs choral writing but I guess it is partly the purpose of the piece as it underscores mental shock. It is for me the somewhat rough sound of the piece that is one of its interesting features. The narrative from the anguished opening and the gradual build-up to the jubilant finale works very well in my opinion but I quite easily understand if the piece is not to everyone's taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 There's a bit of the big chords from the E.T. finale in Gloria.That's how I recognized it was JW just by seeing a Monsignor TV spot(back in the days, you didn't know who composed the score for a film unless you saw the name on the poster) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,174 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It is certainly not as "polished" as much of JWs choral writing but I guess it is partly the purpose of the piece as it underscores mental shock. It is for me the somewhat rough sound of the piece that is one of its interesting features. Ok, I have to admit that I have no idea what kind of scene it underscores. Taken on its own, it just seems to hysterical in a megalomaniac way. But perhaps that's entirely appropriate in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 it's a procession of priests in a cathedral, near the end the Christopher Reeve character get shocked by something he sees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 ...it makes me think more of The Fury than The Godfather.I had that feeling about it sounding like The Fury too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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