Do you *really* think Shore's LOTR is as good as Williams' Star Wars OT?

[Ricard 2,242]

Won't happen.

But it just did!

[nightscape94 965]

I happen to think that Williams' music is more complex, diverse, and rewarding, but this type of poll basically embodies why I dislike polls. On the basis of both works being movie scores, they both appear to succeed. Not exactly sure why one needs to be better than the other on that front.

Both scores have rather devoted and rabid fans who enjoy them for different reasons.

[Incanus 5,713]

I luckily love both trilogies just about equally. There is no contest. I can enjoy both.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Won't happen.

But it just did!

No, it didn't. He expected an angry, flaming response. I don't give a nickel. After 13 years, LotR has passed the test of time.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I didn't vote, as I'm not very familiar with the Star Wars films or their soundtracks. I'm listening to Star Wars now - probably the first time I've ever heard the music through headphones rather than just tinny TV speakers - and find it to be an amazingly well-crafted sound throughout (not something that springs to mind in regard to Shore's The Lord of the Rings scores, whose chief merits are in other areas). I find it harder to get into the actual melodies and harmonies; as often for Williams' music with me, I feel as though I'm looking at an expertly constructed object from the outside, rather than being immersed in and swept along by it. For the latter reason, I wouldn't trade my The Lord of the Rings CDs for the best recordings of Star Wars just yet. But, like I said, I don't know the latter well enough to make a fair comparison.

[nightscape94 965]

Williams isn't exactly known for inaccessible melodies and harmonies.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

No indeed. For some reason, they very often leave me cold.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

The thing is, I don't like to. I really absolutely do not. Nothing is less interesting and more grating to me than this kind of discussion.

Confrontation and territoriality is in the essence of human nature. Accept it and you'll be happier

Well, I hope the incoming results of this poll have made Ricard and KM feel all warm and fuzzy again inside.

They didn't affect my mood in the slightest. I find them quite revealing, thought.

Human nature should change before it's too late. Totally different conversation though.

And right on, Lee. "Revealing," indeed.

As for what you said about everyone agreeing being boring, well, the liveliest discussions I've had here haven't involved disagreements of any type.

[mstrox 6,643]

^{Needs fourth option - "can't compare apples and oranges"}

[BloodBoal 7,538]

^{"can't compare apples and oranges"}

But which is which?

I'd say Star Wars is apples, and LOTR oranges.

[Quintus 5,399]

Nah, Star Wars is a lot more juicy than LotR.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Honeycrisps are quite juicy!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apples are like Lemba's bread!

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

Star Wars invariably makes me think of Mars Bars.

[Quintus 5,399]

I didn't vote, as I'm not very familiar with the Star Wars films or their soundtracks. I'm listening to Star Wars now - probably the first time I've ever heard the music through headphones rather than just tinny TV speakers

This is nuts!

[nightscape94 965]

You have to remember that there are still young people out there.

[crocodile 7,983]

Star Wars is in the past. At least my generation was introduced to it through Special Editions. That's why I never bothered criticising those.

Karol

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Remember the inflated attention TTT and AOTC recieved compared to the brilliant score Goldsmith composed for Star Trek Nemesis?

I never heard a brilliant Nemesis score.

[KK 3,307]

Yawn. This thread is boring. We've seen it all before.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Well this thread was a train wreck of no conversation about the actual poll.

Makes me feel better about all the ones I've made with 0 replies.

[KK 3,307]

It's classic JWFan!

[Faleel 5,330]

(more choir!! more choir!!).

More Cannons!

[crocodile 7,983]

Yawn. This thread is boring. We've seen it all before.

Da Da Da Duuum!

Karol

[Faleel 5,330]

Yawn. This thread is boring. We've seen it all before.

Da Da Da Duuum!

Karol

Never knew you were a Zelda fan

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

LOTR may not have the same polish or finesse that Star Wars has, but I think it more than makes up for that fact in the pure sincerity of the blood, sweat and tears that went into that monstrous production.

Sweat does not make good music. If anything, it makes it stink!

Fortunately for us, even the CR surround sound discs don't have a way for us to smell each and every note that Shore composed. Not yet anyway.

(more choir!! more choir!!).

More Cannons!

More cowbell!

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I didn't vote, as I'm not very familiar with the Star Wars films or their soundtracks. I'm listening to Star Wars now - probably the first time I've ever heard the music through headphones rather than just tinny TV speakers

This is nuts!

You have to remember that there are still young people out there.

There certainly are! Unfortunately I'm not one of them...

[SafeUnderHill 205]

Need this poll on hsfan.com too for the sake of fairness.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, I voted!

I'm sure Ricard knows what my option was even before checking.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Not in a million years. For all their strengths, the LOTR scores have too much dull, monophonic filler. Not enough textural or metric variety, or scope. Also, the novelty of Shore's aleatoric 'manifesto' wears thin pretty fast.

[gkgyver 1,645]

For the musically illiterate, some, or a lot, of the Williams crash-bang boom-tzzz can be just as dull, if not more irritating than the monophonic filler in LotR. I know it is for me. I haven't listened to the SW original trilogy in ages.

[Seth 67]

Star Wars, absolutely. While I think it's fair to say that Shore's narrative cohesion and ambition are impressive, I'm not sure it should affect how we evaluate the score. Shore knew from the start where he was going, while Williams probably thought Star Wars would just be another assignment instead of what it turned into. Establishing connections as you go isn't the same as starting out knowing how things should join up and relate, if that makes sense.

I appreciate the conceptual approach to LOTR, and there is some really beautiful stuff in there (I'm especially fond of the Lothlorien and Rohan material), but there is a lot of filler that is boring and pseudo-profound and that it seems people forget about, or gloss over, in discussing the scores. I just think Shore went to the same well too many times in terms of timbre--boy soprano solos (and other vocal solos), tam-tam roles, long string chords, and aleatoric material. I know that complaining about filler is a function of listening to music that wasn't meant for a standalone experience, but it's been released so why not talk about it, right? I think he was reaching for levels of depth that just weren't on the screen.

All that isn't to say that I think Star Wars is perfect; I enjoy Star Wars and ESB from top to bottom, but I have some issues with ROTJ. I think part of that is based on the flaws in the film; it's the only one of the original trilogy where I find the more lyrical, dramatic music more interesting than the action writing (and I think the quieter underscore in SW/ESB is interesting), especially the Ewok material, which I mostly dislike. It treads a line close to circus music in my mind. The Star Wars films are pulp, and I think Williams saw that and approached them accordingly. I do agree that some of the thematic material has become overexposed, but the stuff in-between still holds my attention.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Very well said. It's partly that pulpiness that connects with me more than the self-serious, pseudo-art film stylings of Jackson's films and Shore's scores.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Star Wars, absolutely. While I think it's fair to say that Shore's narrative cohesion and ambition are impressive, I'm not sure it should affect how we evaluate the score. Shore knew from the start where he was going, while Williams probably thought Star Wars would just be another assignment instead of what it turned into. Establishing connections as you go isn't the same as starting out knowing how things should join up and relate, if that makes sense.

I appreciate the conceptual approach to LOTR, and there is some really beautiful stuff in there (I'm especially fond of the Lothlorien and Rohan material), but there is a lot of filler that is boring and pseudo-profound and that it seems people forget about, or gloss over, in discussing the scores. I just think Shore went to the same well too many times in terms of timbre--boy soprano solos (and other vocal solos), tam-tam roles, long string chords, and aleatoric material. I know that complaining about filler is a function of listening to music that wasn't meant for a standalone experience, but it's been released so why not talk about it, right? I think he was reaching for levels of depth that just weren't on the screen.

All that isn't to say that I think Star Wars is perfect; I enjoy Star Wars and ESB from top to bottom, but I have some issues with ROTJ. I think part of that is based on the flaws in the film; it's the only one of the original trilogy where I find the more lyrical, dramatic music more interesting than the action writing (and I think the quieter underscore in SW/ESB is interesting), especially the Ewok material, which I mostly dislike. It treads a line close to circus music in my mind. The Star Wars films are pulp, and I think Williams saw that and approached them accordingly. I do agree that some of the thematic material has become overexposed, but the stuff in-between still holds my attention.

That's true of John's SW, not Howard's LOTR.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

PJ's LOTR films are profound?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Emotionally, yes. There is nothing of the same caliber in any of the Star Wars films. Williams is able to elevate them only because of who he is.

If Williams had scored LOTR, and Shore SW, SW would be seen as the glossy, if entertaining, husk that it is. Even more so than it is already.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

True, Ian Holm, Bernard Hill, Sean Bean, Sean Astin, Andy Serkis and Miranda Otto give stirring performances, but I'm not sure profound is the right word.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Well, I can only go by my experience of it.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If Williams had scored LOTR, and Shore SW, SW would be seen as the glossy, if entertaining, husk that it is. Even more so than it is already.

Erm, what?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

What I mean is that if Shore, or really, anyone other than Williams had scored Star Wars, those films would be far less well regarded than they are.

So, even though Williams' Star Wars is compositionally more complex, intellectually more engaging, there's just far less soul in it than what Shore did for LOTR, because of the source material each was working with.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Right, I getcha.

[Seth 67]

Star Wars, absolutely. While I think it's fair to say that Shore's narrative cohesion and ambition are impressive, I'm not sure it should affect how we evaluate the score. Shore knew from the start where he was going, while Williams probably thought Star Wars would just be another assignment instead of what it turned into. Establishing connections as you go isn't the same as starting out knowing how things should join up and relate, if that makes sense.

I appreciate the conceptual approach to LOTR, and there is some really beautiful stuff in there (I'm especially fond of the Lothlorien and Rohan material), but there is a lot of filler that is boring and pseudo-profound and that it seems people forget about, or gloss over, in discussing the scores. I just think Shore went to the same well too many times in terms of timbre--boy soprano solos (and other vocal solos), tam-tam roles, long string chords, and aleatoric material. I know that complaining about filler is a function of listening to music that wasn't meant for a standalone experience, but it's been released so why not talk about it, right? I think he was reaching for levels of depth that just weren't on the screen.

All that isn't to say that I think Star Wars is perfect; I enjoy Star Wars and ESB from top to bottom, but I have some issues with ROTJ. I think part of that is based on the flaws in the film; it's the only one of the original trilogy where I find the more lyrical, dramatic music more interesting than the action writing (and I think the quieter underscore in SW/ESB is interesting), especially the Ewok material, which I mostly dislike. It treads a line close to circus music in my mind. The Star Wars films are pulp, and I think Williams saw that and approached them accordingly. I do agree that some of the thematic material has become overexposed, but the stuff in-between still holds my attention.

That's true of John's SW, not Howard's LOTR.

Hmm. I won't argue with the assertion that Williams elevated the Star Wars films. I think that is absolutely true. When I say that Shore was reaching for depth, I don't mean to say the same thing as elevating a lightweight film. A better way to say it may have been to say that Shore was trying to impose profundity on a film that couldn't quite handle it. I like how put it here:

Emotionally, yes. There is nothing of the same caliber in any of the Star Wars films. Williams is able to elevate them only because of who he is.

If Williams had scored LOTR, and Shore SW, SW would be seen as the glossy, if entertaining, husk that it is. Even more so than it is already.

Either way, no harm no foul. I think this discussion has been more interesting than it had any right to be, actually.

[Incanus 5,713]

Emotionally, yes. There is nothing of the same caliber in any of the Star Wars films. Williams is able to elevate them only because of who he is.

If Williams had scored LOTR, and Shore SW, SW would be seen as the glossy, if entertaining, husk that it is. Even more so than it is already.

In all fairness very few composer would have created the leitmotific depth for Lord of the Rings that Shore built. I think it is the closest film scores have come to actual Wagnerian approach to underscoring a film using a net of truly intricate collection of leitmotifs. Nothing else comes even close in that respect. But I know there are people who find this approach unsettling, annoying and distracting just for this intricacy as it loses some of the simple storytelling function where the musical gestures are usually quite clear and concise and chart a select central ideas through the film they accompany. Shore's approach has literary roots, his way of attempting to bring the "missing" parts of the novel into the film, which actually is an ambitious effort and works very well in my opinion despite the leitmotific storytelling becoming quite dense. It is also quite valiant in the way the production design of the films was since both Shore and the production designers did understand that all of their work would never be readily apparent on screen to the audience but went all the way anyway out of respect to the source material.

Williams' music is certainly less erudite in intellectual subtextual depth (it doesn't much intellectualize but emotionalizes the subject matter in SWs case) but perhaps more accomplished in musical depth. But to me Shore's style fits the story of LotR perfectly, all the slow "filler" with the sustained chords, the breathing quality of the writing where dialogue is accompanied by slow inhale-exhale musical phrases, the pared down action music, the timbral choices so typical of the composer, everything. Same goes for John Williams and Star Wars. The Romantic, emotional, colorful writing that is so emblematic of those movies is John Williams through and through, some of his most inspired work in terms of themes, flow and dramatic impetus his scores give these movies and become to define them. I honestly couldn't imagine a John Williams score for Lord of the Rings just as I couldn't imagine a Howard Shore score for Star Wars.

[Kühni 485]

One thing I absolutely love about LotR is the complete (?) lack of staccato xylophones (bass marimba for the Ents ain't counting).

[Incanus 5,713]

One thing I absolutely love about LotR is the complete (?) lack of staccato xylophones (bass marimba for the Ents ain't counting).

Ah the mortal sin of both Williams and Goldsmith. Must be an old school film music device that Shore refuses to use because he is too cool for school. Plus they are kind of annoying half the time. You could achieve those accents with an instrument that has more bite and less comedy to it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A mortal sin?

You really talk out of your ass sometimes, Mikko!

[Incanus 5,713]

A mortal sin?

You really talk out of your ass sometimes, Mikko!

Teheee, you really have a soft spot for xylophones Stefan. Admit it!

And I was half-joking but I guess it was a half-assed effort.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shore generally eshews the snare drum in his Middle Earth scores too. I guess they arent cool either!

[Quintus 5,399]

Xylophones in Williams scores are great. What's the problem? I absolutely love them in the Anakin vs Sebulba alternate (with the added snares).

Ah but of course, that is action writing. Howard Shore's achilles heel.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shore, as good as he is doesnt have the knack that JW and Jerry have for action music. Xylo's included!

[crocodile 7,983]

You really talk out of your ass sometimes, Mikko!

Which is an impressive skill by anybody's standards.

Karol