The Setpiece

[Quintus 5,391]

http://youtu.be/9A-HvZPx-68

Orchestral setpiece cues like the ones above are what is lacking from film music today. They just don't exist anymore. Is it because producers no longer want them? I very much doubt that. Is it because the talent is no longer out there for it? I believe so. Modern composers do not have the chops for this stuff, they simply lack the 'attack' required.

Where in Desplat's Godzilla soundtrack are the setpiece cues? Did John Powell bring his big A-game to How to Train Your Dragon? Has Michael Giacchino ever written anything remotely similar in quality to any of the above?

NO.

Whatever happened to the setpiece?

[Brónach 490]

Giacchino doesn't do setpieces? What?

[crocodile 6,294]

The opening to John Carter would be the closest, I think.

Define "setpiece", Lee. For me it would be a piece in film music would be a self-contained sequence of music with its own narrative and internal structure. The only composer who this kind of tbing would be Christopher Young. No matter the score it's almost always immaculately structured self-contained pieve of music. I've rediscovered Tge Core recently. One setpiece after another.

Oh do Neodammerung/Burly Brawl/Chateau Swashbuckling count as a setpieces?

Karol

[Quintus 5,391]

For me a setpiece is an extended and isolated cue which may or may not incorporate elements from the wider score. Boiling it down to precisely what I consider a setpiece to be: it's normally the moment/s in the score where the composer wants to be noticed. A cue they deliberately intend to stand out from the rest of the underscore, a cue which has the composer's signature front and centre. More often than not they tend to be thrilling or suspenseful moments in both the music and the movie.

[Brónach 490]

Roque Baños has done that.

I was thinking on pieces that can work by thesemlves that develop an idea that only appears there and identifies the whole scene. For example like Bug Tunnel and Death Trap.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Does a set-piece need to be distinctly different from other parts of the score. Like The Asteroid Field, or The Basket Game?

[Quintus 5,391]

Not necessarily. Is the Asteroid Field really that different from the rest of the TESB score anyway? The Basket Game has a humour to it as well, which doesn't seem out of place.

[Incanus 5,519]

I think the setpiece derives more from the film itself and the decision to let the music tell the story and participate rather than from the composer just making his/her music somehow more noticeable during any given scene.

[publicist 4,484]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7L01eiOlI

[Jay 27,216]

Here's a great set piece cue from 2009

And two from 2011

And two from 2013

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Not necessarily. Is the Asteroid Field really that different from the rest of the TESB score anyway? The Basket Game has a humour to it as well, which doesn't seem out of place.

Both contain a theme that is distinct to that particular cue.

[Jay 27,216]

I consider The Asteroid Field to be as different from the rest of the TESB score as I do The Basket Game from the rest of ROTLA or Bug Tunnel And Death Trap is for TOD, etc.

That is to say, it sounds completely like it's part of the score, while also kind of being it's own unique thing at the same time. Really cool.

[steb74 53]

Really?

I've always considered the Asteroid Field theme to be a tongue in cheek expansion of the Rebel Fanfare, it's the last two notes that have always done that for me, a stagecoach getaway with Solo at the helm.

The glue surrounding it is (imo) based and built on material introduced to us throughout the snow battle.

So while it still works as a stand alone piece, in terms of musical narrative we've been prepared with all of these scrap yard ideas, so when we do make our getaway you can feel the urgency as the musical glue is barely holding our theme together which is what makes it so exciting and effective in the movie .......for me at least.

[Jay 27,216]

i completely agree with you!

[mrbellamy 5,231]

I think this one qualifies:

And two more from Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRktoNlAeMs

Also maybe not so much what you're looking for, but I watched the movie Chicken With Plums the other day and this struck me as a rather "emotional setpiece":

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,476]

The Dish from First Contact?

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

No one? No one?

I'll get my coat.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I will help you bear this burden.

Hell, while we're at it, let me just totally set myself up for a scoffing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_0S3vqw7tY

[KK 3,202]

I've really come to appreciate the merits of Inception, but I can't stand "Time" at all.

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

I've really come to appreciate the merits of Inception, but I can't stand "Time" at all.

Same here, though I like gentle rendition before Mal's fall. The bombastic one just feels like warmed-over Journey to the Line.

[KK 3,202]

That's exactly what it is. Journey to the Line-lite. I'd rather listen to the real thing, thank you very much.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I prefer it to JTTL.

[Max 122]

An awesome piece by Giacchino:

[Uni 306]

I think the setpiece derives more from the film itself and the decision to let the music tell the story and participate rather than from the composer just making his/her music somehow more noticeable during any given scene.

I agree. The composer doesn't have to (and shouldn't) wave his arms for attention. The setpiece, as far as this context goes, is a collaborative decision to give the music a front seat in the scene at hand.

And by that measure, I don't think it has to be limited to an action-oriented or suspenseful scene at all. Here's one I consider a fine example of a setpiece:

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Giacchino's MOH scores are just superb set piece after superb set piece.

[Jay 27,216]

Oh yea!

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Define "setpiece", Lee. For me it would be a piece in film music would be a self-contained sequence of music with its own narrative and internal structure.

That's more or less how I would define it. An extended sequence that's meant to stand out among the rest of the score and isn't as organically connected to it as the rest of it. Williams in his blockbuster days was definitely a set piece composer, and most of the important ones have been mentioned above. Asteroid Field and Basket Chase introduce their own themes to make them stand out. TIE Fighter Attack is basically a workout for the rebel fanfare, but it's the only piece that relies extensively on it in rapid succession (instead of just throwing it in at a critical moment) and the rest of the piece is also "original" material.

Goldsmith, on the other hand, rarely wrote set pieces according to this definition. I'm tempted to categorise The Enterprise as a set piece, but it only partly fits my definition. It doesn't bring its own material - on the contrary, it's THE major workout of THE main theme of the score. It stands out because it's such a lengthy sequence that presents the theme in a musical (little interference from the visuals, dialogue or sfx), theme & variations style. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for First Contact. But in general, Goldsmith's standout cues are too strongly tied to the fabric of the remaining score to label them as set pieces in my mind. They often do work on their own, and they often are notable highlights - The Hunt from Final Conflict for example, or half of the Mummy score, but only because they are key points where all the ingredients of the score come together to form something that stands out. Williams, I am certain, used to consciously construct his set pieces as separate entities that tie into the score only to a certain extent. In a way, he made those film sequences stand out among the film through his music. In a Williams film, the film runs until the set piece, then suddenly the set piece starts, and when it's over, the film resumes. In a Goldsmith score, the film and music both flow through those standout pieces, without breaking the overall sequence. Does that make sense?

[Uni 306]

It does make sense (at least to me). But you bring up another interesting point:

I'm tempted to categorise The Enterprise as a set piece, but it only partly fits my definition. It doesn't bring its own material - on the contrary, it's THE major workout of THE main theme of the score. It stands out because it's such a lengthy sequence that presents the theme in a musical (little interference from the visuals, dialogue or sfx), theme & variations style.

I can see what you're saying here. However, the scene is itself one of the major cinematic setpieces of the movie, a chance for the fans to "ooh" and "aah" over the new design of the ship. It was planned and designed as such long before Goldsmith even came to the project. So in a case like this, when there's an obvious setpiece in the film, does it (or does it not) become incumbent upon the composer to create some sort of musical setpiece to accompany it?

And while we're on it, one more twist on the cord: this scene became THE major workout of THE main theme . . . eventually. But Goldsmith originally scored it entirely differently, before he really settled on a central theme for the movie. So then, would the original piece, if it had been used, translate as more of a setpiece in your mind than its replacement?

[publicist 4,484]

He didn't score it entirely different, most key synchronization points remained. But while Williams' set pieces are certainly a special breed i wouldn't go so far to set a definition just for those handful he actually did. THE ENTERPRISE is as much as a set piece as ASTEROID FIELD as is, to me, a cue like, say, THE CHASE from COCOON (to stay in the 80's) even if this isn't strictly one like the JW cues, either.

If the cue has it's own special place within the parameters set by a score (and isn't a concert or end title piece), it's a set piece of said score.

[Jay 27,216]

Yea, even though I think the general idea of set piece have continued into modern scoring, it's definitely true that no one does them like Williams did, he really excelled at them in a really special way

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

I can see what you're saying here. However, [...]

Good points.

So then, would the original piece, if it had been used, translate as more of a setpiece in your mind than its replacement?

No, because it lacks the theme. It doesn't really stand out enough I think. It's too intangible.

[Uni 306]

THE ENTERPRISE is as much as a set piece as ASTEROID FIELD as is, to me, a cue like, say, THE CHASE from COCOON (to stay in the 80's) even if this isn't strictly one like the JW cues, either.

That's another excellent example. (And why does it have to match up with Williams' style to be a valid setpiece? Even if we can all agree JW was the master of the practice, it doesn't mean he was the only one who did it.)

If the cue has it's own special place within the parameters set by a score (and isn't a concert or end title piece), it's a set piece of said score.

Actually, I think this is the best definition so far . . . although it might lack a little focus on the "special place" thing. But I like distinguishing it from a concert theme, end title, or other suite treatment. It exists as part of the fabric of the score, but for whatever reason, be it cinematic or musical, it stands out from the rest of the tapestry.

So then, would the original piece, if it had been used, translate as more of a setpiece in your mind than its replacement?

No, because it lacks the theme. It doesn't really stand out enough I think. It's too intangible.

So by your definition, then, it would require some thematic grounding, even if it's a motif that only appears in the setpiece scene itself. (I'm not arguing against it; just clarifying.)