Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (Gareth Edwards 2016)

[Romão 2,274]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Rogue Squardon really doesnt have a lot top do with the Rebel Fanfare IMO.

[Max 141]

I think that if Williams composed a theme or motif for a character, group, place, or thing (that is, if it's appropriate for the context), it would be acceptable to quote that theme.

It's when Kiner quotes Leia's theme over a scene of Wookiees hugging that gets on my nerves.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Romão 2,274]

Well, I've always though the Reben Fanfare conveyed quite well the kind of youthful idealismo and enthusiasm so characteristic of the Rebel pilots. In some ways, the Force theme also doubles as the Alliance theme. The Rebel Fanfare was always about the heroic and enthusiastic antics of the Rebel fighters, I find

[nightscape94 965]

It's when Kiner quotes Leia's theme over a scene of Wookiees hugging that gets on my nerves.

But it doesn't when Williams uses that theme for Ben's death? Fuckin' blind fanboyism!

Still a great scene and cue. At least she was there!

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Ben sacrificed for her too....

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

The Rebel Fanfare is the action theme for the Rebel Alliance, who relies on their starfighter pilots to win battles and thus the wars. Rogue Squadron needs the theme, plain and simple.

Leia's the leader of the Alliance? You mistyped Mon Mothma.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mo su raaaaaahaaaaa!

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

This film needs to rely heavily on williams themes (if the main theme of the film is rebellion versus empire)

I hope Desplat makes a good Williams homage score and not something like the post Williams harry potter films.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If Star Wars is to really evolve then it should start to movie away from Williams' music. Why not let every composer do its own thing with it?

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Because its wrong.

The music can evolve in the post Sequel trilogy era, when Williams stops creating themes.

But changing the music in the era (OT era) when Williams was on his prime is wrong and stupid.

If they make films in the old, old republic then they can make new music too.

Anyway, the Force theme should be there forever (if jedi are involved)

When they reboot the franchise they can change the music too. But as long as it is in the same universe composed music for, there is no other option. Period.

I'm not saying that they have to stick with the Romantic classical musical sound...they could make modern things (if they deem it neccessary, which i dont...) but using the themes.

[publicist 4,643]

I'm sure they will always find a place in the last part of the end credits to squeeze it in.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But you will get all sorts of composers doing awkward and lukewarm versions of John Williams themes that lack the Maestro's verve.

Why not let each individual composer write in his own voice instead.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

One has to be a very bad composer if he can't make renditions of the imperial march or rebel fanfare, and cmpose new music for new characters and planets...

I'm saying compose scores like the Giacchino M:I scores. Yeah you hate him, bad example...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not about not being able too. It's how to make them work within the composers own musical style.

I never thought Ottman and Davis really had a handle on Williams' themes in Superman Returns and JP3.

I would prefer a Shadows Of The Empire-like approach. Maybe some small use of JW material for continuity sake, but nothing more.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I would prefer a Shadows Of The Empire-like approach. Maybe some small use of JW material for continuity sake, but nothing more.

Exactly what i'm talking about. The imperial march appears when vader is involved. The force theme is used when vader contacts Luke with the force....

A full film score would have more quotes, but yes, there are new characters and plantes and Mcneely created his own music for them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That is not what you said.

This film needs to rely heavily on williams themes

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Whatever, some spin offs will be more suited for a Mcneely approach and others will be more suited for a Giacchino/Ottman/Davis approach.

BTW, Mcneely took that approach because he was not composing wall to wall for a film. If he had a film to compose, we would be having a lot of Luke's theme, Leia's theme, Boba fett motif, Imperial-vader, Emperor*, force themes renditions. The score should be an extension of the OT.

*Hmmm this one would be tricky... since Williams composed it for ROTJ....but well he used it in the prequels sooo...

[mverta 15]

If the wild card is Mike Verta?

But honestly, does anyone (besides the resident cult) wants slavish re-interpretations of selected pieces from LAST CRUSADE and FAR AND AWAY?

I enjoyed this critique of my slavish re-interpretations.

_Mike

[TownerFan 4,983]

I happen to think that it's a pretty great slavish re-interpretation... Bring more of it, Mike!

[Jay 37,287]

I had never heard of Mike Verta before, but I listened to that youtube video and it was great!

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I've always wanted to see one of the criticized pop in and say hello. Can't wait to see how/if Pub responds.

[mverta 15]

I think you have to empathize with his/her position. Many people (myself included) feel that anything even remotely approaching that idiom is hallowed ground. But a lot of those same people aren't aware of how much of an amalgam JWs music is, either. John "public domain" Williams, his haters used to say. Like, to the criticism leveled at me here - could you equally say that Star Wars is just a slavish re-interpretation of King's Row and The Planets? Fuck yes you could. Moreso, even. Would it be equally dismissive and reductive? Absolutely. But is there a kernel of truth in it? Uh, you betcha. I mean... have you heard King's Row? So while his/her criticism isn't actually an accurate musicological analysis (my piece has nothing thematically in common with the cues mentioned), it isn't really meant to be (I hope). It's a, "Fuck you, wannabe; you're no John Williams." And I think the spirit of that we can all get behind. 'Cause it's true; nobody is John Williams but John Williams.

But the elements which comprise JWs music aren't uniquely his, either; they're common ingredients culled from many composers and many pieces in a long history of symphonic writing. Writing that way is how I've been trained for 35 years as well, and a composer's sound is greater than the sum of any one phrase or progression, modulation or orchestrational device. If my music "feels" like John's music, it isn't because I'm lifting his melodies (I don't; I don't have to), it's mostly because we steal the same devices from the same core composers. We both love VW, Respighi, Barber, Britten, and a dozen others; we're both session Jazz pianists who voice chords in a similar way, and even though we could identify the root pieces of music in virtually every one of JW's scores, we realize this doesn't affect the unique, inspired way he crafts a cohesive, dramatic narrative from those devices. In short, what a composer has to say is what matters; he doesn't have to invent an entirely new language to say it in. Sure, if you listen to E.T. back-to-back with Hanson's Romantic, you might cringe at the damn-near plagiarism. But Williams understands the material; gets its essence; knows how to cook his own dishes with the ingredients. A lot of chefs use cilantro; not all chefs are equal. Same thing.

There are a lot of Williams imitators; so-called "pastiche" composers. You can hear their random woodwind runs and slapdash harp glissandos a mile away. Few of them posses compelling thematic ideas, and virtually none of them can sustain a long-form developmental arc. "The Race" is a study in such development; two themes, constantly evolving, intertwining, and influencing each other, serving a single, 3-act dramatic arc. It's a skill composers used to be trained for, and aren't anymore; and there's no way to fake it. This is why today's scores consist of a series of what may be perfectly-appropriate, cool-sounding cues, but which don't together create a long-form, cohesive story. The new Batman theme sounds exactly the same in the first scene of the film as it does in the last scene (literally), whereas the Force theme from Star Wars undergoes many developmental transformations during the drama; tentative and plaintive to match Luke's feelings in the beginning, militaristic and confident by the end of the film. That's what's missing, now. The unique quality of John's music isn't the chords he's stolen, or the melodies he's appropriated; it isn't the orchestrational devices he borrows, or the modulations he's lifted. It's the unique way he weaves these elements into a new, cohesive package. Any well-trained composer, with access to the same materials, will craft music which has things in common with what's come before it, but will also be inescapably unique, because we're all unique individuals.

One of my podcasts for up-and-coming composers talks about this very thing, if you're interested. Finding Your Own Voice

So give "publicist" a break; he/she feels strongly - maybe irrationally - territorial about JW's work. I do, too - he's the reason I became a composer. In the end, whether the music comes from me or not, I bet "publicist" doesn't want that type of music to die with John Williams. And those of us who've spent a lifetime studying the traditions are well aware of how high the bar is set. We keep at it anyway. And sometimes, even our failures turn out pretty well, too.

_Mike

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

All well made points (though expecting Williams' notions of development and leitmotif to apply to Zimmer's music is not quite reasonable - totally different aesthetic goals). But I think what pub was really getting at, and it's something I agree with, is that it's not necessarily desirable to scrutinize and choose every composer who will now work in the Star Wars universe based on how close their sound is to Williams'. This is a great opportunity to bring diverse musical perspectives into that world. And that's not to say anything against a composer like yourself, obviously.

[mverta 15]

No, "pub" was getting at my music being derivative crap. But I get it.

Personally, I think if handed a Star Wars score, you stay the hell away from Williams themes, for many reasons, but you embrace the thing that ACTUALLY makes Wiliams' Star Wars music what it is and that's its symphonic developmental structure. Problem is, basically nobody can do that for shit anymore. Now, the caveat there, of course, is that the film is structured that way itself. But we basically don't do THAT anymore either. We've abandoned the 3-act structure in favor of these insane 8-12 act structures, where halfway through the movie everything changes course and the goal is a new goal and the bad guy isn't the real bad guy and it was all a misdirect and, blah blah blah. This is done because it's easier to keep coming up with random "and then this happens" shit than it is to have an idea compelling and deep enough to keep micro-attention spans stimulated for 90 minutes. But I digress. If you're making a Star Wars film which is structurally connected to its predecessors, you're best serving it with a long-form score. It works, and for good reason. Trying to shoehorn that type of score into a FX-fest won't work, anyway, so you might as well do something entirely different. And trust me, the Star Wars of nostalgia is dead. What ever's coming is something wholly other. Given that dream-of-a-chance, I would probably be dragged kicking and screaming into using one of the classic themes. It'd be like fucking with somebody else's dick. I get how tempting it is to lean on a guaranteed audience thrill button, but when you do that, you end up looking like the new Star Wars - a fan film with a budget. Just 200 million dollars of nudge-nudge, wink-wink. But that's me, and I've spent the last 15 years restoring the original film in 4K. So I'm as biased as anyone.

_Mike

[Jay 37,287]

restoring the original film in 4K.

Woah

[publicist 4,643]

No, "pub" was getting at my music being derivative crap. But I get it.

Not at all (the crap part). I am aware that there are some considerable technical chops to conceptualize and write stuff like that. It's just the general notion that it should be desirable that a composer with said chops has nothing better to do with his/her time than producing music that's a dead ringer for a very successful Hollywood composer (especially with said composer's already eclectic approach).

You may have divided the board here (let's say 70-30): the one fraction will say 'Bravo Maestro! Finally more of the same stuff i could drown myself in' whereas the other one is more like 'i heard this already too often, and certainly with more distinctive tunes, thank you'.

My biggest problem, and you may forgive me this generalization because i hardly heard more than two or three pieces of your compositions, is not that this stuff isn't very 'inspiring' for me as a listener (i found FAR AND AWAY rather trite in its original form) - that i could stomach - but that the one thing Williams always got right, the pitch-perfect tunes - is missing. And with missing the catchy tunes, my emotional investment turns nil (or even hostile after the fifth or sixth cue). But i am just one lone voice on a message board. If stuff like this drives your career, i mean honestly, is there any need to discuss it? Whatever works...

[mverta 15]

Catchy tunes is pass/fail, for the most part, for sure. And it's got plenty of science to it, actually, in terms of capitalizing on chord tones, contrast between scalar and intervallic motion.. there are some things one can do to better the chances for retention. Personally, when I catch people around me absentmindedly humming it, it's usually a good sign. And yes, you're right, ultimately I've had a career for 20+ years because the people writing the pink slips think I can do it, and enough people putting down cash agree. Is that any sort of absolute indication of being a great melodist? I doubt it. With 7 billion people on the planet, I think a lot more would have to weigh in. And even then, that doesn't mean YOU will dig a given melody.

The bulk of my career hasn't been spent writing this sort of stuff, actually, it just happens to be what I do most naturally. But you know? I'm 42. Williams didn't write Star Wars until he was 44, so maybe there's hope yet. And thanks for the "dead ringer" thing. It's backhanded, but I'll take it. You're also right that we always have the option to dismiss criticisms, for virtually any reason we choose to invent. Never found that to be a wise move, though. I think we're only as good as the criticism we're ready to hear. Anyway, the whole thing's moot. Hans told me once that Williams thing was, um, not en vogue anymore, and fuck if that ain't the truth.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's sadly true. Thankfully JWfan stands as a bastion to the man's brilliance. In defiance of the more current "flavor of the month" composers like Zimmer, Djawadi or Giachino.

[publicist 4,643]

It stopped being in vogue in the 90's, actually.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Given that dream-of-a-chance, I would probably be dragged kicking and screaming into using one of the classic themes. It'd be like fucking with somebody else's dick.

Quoting this for future reference, in case you get the gig!

[publicist 4,643]

And thanks for the "dead ringer" thing. It's backhanded, but I'll take it. You're also right that we always have the option to dismiss criticisms, for virtually any reason we choose to invent. Never found that to be a wise move, though. I think we're only as good as the criticism we're ready to hear. Anyway, the whole thing's moot. Hans told me once that Williams thing was, um, not en vogue anymore, and fuck if that ain't the truth.

Spotify has brought up a thing called FORBIDDEN WARRIOR. I listen to it currently...too much ESB (and THE LITTLE PEOPLE, a piece i can't stand anyway)!! But i can stand by the dead ringer comment. It's certainly not any less accomplished than what McNeely was doing back in his day and far better than what others brought forth in this particular idiom.

As for using Williams in these new SW movies: whatever Desplat will do, he's fucked. At least round here. There are a handful of tunes Williams never elaborated upon but they of course will stand no chance of being repeated (will Luke and Leia be featured in this?)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

For me the only composer to ever really successfully lean on Williams' themes and actually made then work in conjunction with his own score was Alexander Courage with Superman 4.

Shadows Of The Empire also did that very well but only used established themes sparsely, and it wasn't actually a film score.

[publicist 4,643]

But people like Courage, Spencer and Morton were (in Lionel Newman's immortal words) 'old whores'. They were around long before Williams and Goldsmith and just knew what they were doing. And they probably had some input in scores like SW - as much as fellow posters here get nervous ticks at the sacrilegious idea that not every tenth of a quarter note was brought forth by the divine himself, i guess Williams did profit from these collaborations in immeasurable ways.

[mverta 15]

And thanks for the "dead ringer" thing. It's backhanded, but I'll take it. You're also right that we always have the option to dismiss criticisms, for virtually any reason we choose to invent. Never found that to be a wise move, though. I think we're only as good as the criticism we're ready to hear. Anyway, the whole thing's moot. Hans told me once that Williams thing was, um, not en vogue anymore, and fuck if that ain't the truth.

Spotify has brought up a thing called FORBIDDEN WARRIOR.

Going back 11 years... it's a fair cop, but it's also a long time ago, and the 30s are important decades for composers. Check out what happened to Williams between 30 and 44. Holy shit. Wouldn't write that score today. it was my first full feature with Shawn recording, and I remember playing it safe; going with what I knew worked. But what is it they say? Film is forever...

More recent: http://mikeverta.com/wordpress/music/numerical-sound-ir-demo/

And all this stuff: http://mikeverta.com/wordpress/category/music/

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

It's sadly true. Thankfully JWfan stands as a bastion to the man's brilliance. In defiance of the more current "flavor of the month" composers like Zimmer, Djawadi or Giachino.

I would only call one of them "flavor of the month" and even he has a new tv series every year.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Giachino had left his TV days behind him.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Djawadi, dude! You watch the damn show!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I hardly ever notice the music

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Same here, I'm sorry to say.

[Jay 37,287]

Ditto

There were some nice cues I noticed in Season 3, but apart from that... meh

The opening theme is brilliant, though!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Ditto

There were some nice cues I noticed in Season 3, but apart from that... meh

What? I thought you listened to all 4 scores and liked a lot of cues in them!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I've always wanted to see one of the criticized pop in and say hello. Can't wait to see how/if Pub responds.

This is why Temple of Doom is the best one.

[Jay 37,287]

Ditto

There were some nice cues I noticed in Season 3, but apart from that... meh

What? I thought you listened to all 4 scores and liked a lot of cues in them!

Wow, definitely not. I've never listened to the season 1 or 2 OST, and can't even remember if I've listened to season 4 OST or not. Djawadi mostly writes forgettable stuff with only the occasional gem getting out

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Well, my bad.

Happy to know I was wrong!