Empire Of The Sun - La-La Land 2CD

[Andy 4,119]

Finally put my order in. This has always been a CD that just sits on my shelf, unplayed. I am hoping for a greater respect after the expansion, but I think my old prejudices may prevent that... At the time, I always found this a betrayal of the Spielberg/Williams blockbuster sound established by Raiders and E.T. The adult in me says give it another try, but the kid in me likens it to eating vegetables.

[Incanus 5,714]

Finally put my order in. This has always been a CD that just sits on my shelf, unplayed. I am hoping for a greater respect after the expansion, but I think my old prejudices may prevent that... At the time, I always found this a betrayal of the Spielberg/Williams blockbuster sound established by Raiders and E.T. The adult in me says give it another try, but the kid in me likens it to eating vegetables.

The 54 minute album contains lion's share of the score. The highlight of the unreleased music is the 2½ minute Bring Them Back with its poignant choral performance. Plus the material has been arranged to the chronological order. Betrayal of the blockbuster sound is a pretty accurately put but it is certainly a conscious departure from the usual MO of Spielberg/Williams collaborations which also means that there is much less thematic continuity going on from track to track, no typical riproaring set piece of catchy tunes and less hummable main ideas than many of their other collaborations from that period. The episodic nature of the score reflects the episodic nature of the film and how the music reflects some elements of the main character's perception throughout. And I can certainly see why it would not be everyone's cup of tea after being conditioned to the classics that precede it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Why would anyone expect a blockbuster adventure score from this? It's a WWII drama.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's king mark. The guy is like a walking, talking caricature of John Williams fans.

[Jay 37,346]

Audio interview with Mike Mattessino about Empire of the Sun by Tim Burden:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/daily/article.cfm/articleID/7100/%22He-gave-me-a-mango!%22---Remembering-Empire-of-the-Sun-with-Mike-Matessino/

Just listened to this entire thing. It's great!

First of all if you don't have the set yet you should definitely give it a listen, because the entire thing is peppered with tracks from the new release, including Bringing Them Back, alternate Return to the City, alternate Streets of Shanghai, alternate The Plane, and the really cool unreleased opening of Home and Hearth.

Apart from that, the interview is a nice elaboration of the thesis of his liner notes, explaining in more detail why he feels the filmmakers chose to use music to show when the film was showing the warped reality of Jim's imagination, vs using no or source music during the "real" events.

Also discussed is the critical reaction to the film at the time as well as the audience reaction since then, and several other aspects of the film. A very entertaining listen from start to finish for sure!

[publicist 4,643]

It's king mark. The guy is like a walking, talking caricature of John Williams fans.

But it's Hedji!

And to be honest, EOTS isn't exactly a 'challenging' score with its cooing choruses and (often) broad jubilant melodies (there are dissonant passages in RAIDERS, too). So why in god's earth it should be a huge departure i don't know - it even has the customary scherzo!

[Incanus 5,714]

It's king mark. The guy is like a walking, talking caricature of John Williams fans.

But it's Hedji!

And to be honest, EOTS isn't exactly a 'challenging' score with its cooing choruses and (often) broad jubilant melodies (there are dissonant passages in RAIDERS, too). So why in god's earth it should be a huge departure i don't know - it even has the customary scherzo!

I think it is the somewhat less hummable and eclectic nature of the music. Yes there are melodies but not one single defining hummable theme most people are still expecting from Williams for every score that would permeate and define the whole experience. We have Jim's thematic idea that runs subtly (and not so subtly) through the film but it is no Raiders March or Flying from E.T.

[publicist 4,643]

The lack of a sing-along theme may ripple some but the underscore proper is very traditional and suitably epic, a sound people usually dig (PHEASANT HUNT excluded, which is about the only real departure, sound-wise). I find the craving for a comic-book type of score for this movie a bit gross, to be honest.

[Incanus 5,714]

But I understand the bafflement of loyal fans who were expecting (wrongly?) the same thing again from Williams and got this score.

Oh and the score has two of these departures from the symphonic sound, the above mentioned Pheasant Hunt and the opening half of the Japanese Infantry that is on the new release, which stylistically ties both threatening scenes involving the Japanese together sound-wise.

[publicist 4,643]

Well, imagine the shock when SCHINDLER'S LIST hit...

[TownerFan 4,983]

The biggest flaw in the Indy box is Raiders. It just doesn't sound right to my ear and the cuts to the Basket Game and Desert Chase are unforgivable. Williams is sometimes incompetent at editorial decisions!

The Basket Game is not cut on the Concord CD. Only The Desert Chase is.

Which is still a conundrum. Why on earth does JW prefer the clumsy edit in The Desert Chase?!!!

FYI, Williams (and Spielberg as well) signed and approved the 1995 DCC expanded release as well.

[Incanus 5,714]

The biggest flaw in the Indy box is Raiders. It just doesn't sound right to my ear and the cuts to the Basket Game and Desert Chase are unforgivable. Williams is sometimes incompetent at editorial decisions!

The Basket Game is not cut on the Concord CD. Only The Desert Chase is.

Which is still a conundrum. Why on earth does JW prefer the clumsy edit in The Desert Chase?!!!

FYI, Williams (and Spielberg as well) signed and approved the 1995 DCC expanded release as well.

Yes I know which makes it all the more baffling for them to go back to the edited version for the box. Especially when other material was left expanded/full form on the Concord disc.

[crocodile 8,000]

Well, imagine the shock when SCHINDLER'S LIST hit...

Do you think there are some Indiana Jones-like alernates for this one somewhere?

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Well, imagine the shock when SCHINDLER'S LIST hit...

Do you think there are some Indiana Jones-like alernates for this one somewhere?

Karol

There must be! There is a conspiracy keeping them from us, JWs loyal fans!

[crocodile 8,000]

Yeah just imagine all those scherzo/balletic action setpieces for Ghetto pacification!

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Yeah just imagine all those scherzo/balletic action setpieces for Ghetto pacification!

Karol

The Remembrances Theme in full action mode on rousing brass fighting the oppressive Nazi theme written just for this alternate score! Ooooh mama!

[crocodile 8,000]

Not so keen on the drum-loops in this one, though.

And the abandoned Schindler's fanfare.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

There must be a secret vault of all JWs alternate swash and buckle versions of his drama scores somewhere. We just have to find it!

[publicist 4,643]

'Schindler's March'

'Fanfare for the Common Jew'.

[Incanus 5,714]

'Schindler's March'

'Fanfare for the Common Jew'.

You forgot the sugary Christmas Stern carol from that list.

[crocodile 8,000]

All the unused action cues from Saving Private Ryan would be welcome too.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Not to mention the swashbuckle version of Accidental Tourist and Sabrina!

But to return to the Empire of the Sun discussion the Matessino interview was highly informative and entertaining. His comments on how he didn't know how the second disc would be received and how Williams didn't even remember the alternate material anymore but liked it so much that agreed for them to release it were great to hear. As Matessino says the composer didn't have any recollection of the lengthy alternate Return to the City cue but isn't that quite natural given the amount of music Williams writes constantly and how the focus shifts always to the next thing. He does his best for the project in front of him and then moves on and revisits some central material like the concert suites from his scores so no wonder he might have completely forgotten this draft of the cue. But it must have been fun also for him to go back in time and rediscover some of this stuff.

[publicist 4,643]

'Parade of the Cocktail Waitresses'

'STEPMOM - Mother Celebration Fanfare'

'Stanley and Iris Marching Band version'

the possbilities are endless!

[crocodile 8,000]

Not to mention the swashbuckle version of Accidental Tourist and Sabrina!

But to return to the Empire of the Sun discussion the Matessino interview was highly informative and entertaining. His comments on how he didn't know how the second disc would be received and how Williams didn't even remember the alternate material anymore but liked it so much that agreed for them to release it were great to hear. As Matessino says the composer didn't have any recollection of the lengthy alternate Return to the City cue but isn't that quite natural given the amount of music Williams writes constantly and how the focus shifts always to the next thing. He does his best for the project in front of him and then moves on and revisits some central material like the concert suites from his scores so no wonder he might have completely forgotten this draft of the cue. But it must have been fun also for him to go back in time and rediscover some of this stuff.

I was just halfway through listening to it this morning when the parcel with this album arrived through letterbox.

Won't listen to it till tonight, though. Got to go out now for several long hours...

Karol

[rough cut 1,714]

Received!

So far I've listened to the first disc, and I'm very happy with what my ears are hearing! Aside from praising the obvious ("Bringing Them Back"), I'm very pleased with having the complete cues that made up the track "Toy Planes, Home And Hearth" on the OST, namely "Home And Hearth" and "The Plane".

I'm also the kind of guy who enjoys hearing the cues in chronological order as they appear in the film. It flows surprisingly well! On a side note, it does give one respect for how they presented for the original LP release: Side A beginning with "Suo Gan" and ending with "Liberation: Exultate Justi", and side B beginning with "The British Grenadiers" and ending with "Exultate Justi". That's good sequencing! Compare it to how Mike Matessino chose to present the two discs on the LLL edition, and you're in for a treat! ; )

On to disc 2!

[Jay 37,346]

Yea, one of my favorite previously unreleased passages is the original, unused opening of Home and Hearth, which introduces the main theme (Jim's Theme as MM calls it in the notes) in a cool ethereal way. Love it.

I prefer the chronological arrangement to the odd sequence of the original LP. I don't see any reason to hear "Liberation" until after you've gone through all the drama of the story. It's the release of everythign that came before it, having it appear in the middle makes no sense. And also, having Cadillac of the Skies as the second track is just blowing its wad way too early.

[Incanus 5,714]

Yea, one of my favorite previously unreleased passages is the original, unused opening of Home and Hearth, which introduces the main theme (Jim's Theme as MM calls it in the notes) in a cool ethereal way. Love it.

I prefer the chronological arrangement to the odd sequence of the original LP. I don't see any reason to hear "Liberation" until after you've gone through all the drama of the story. It's the release of everythign that came before it, having it appear in the middle makes no sense. And also, having Cadillac of the Skies as the second track is just blowing its wad way too early.

Agreed. The LP places the big stuff up front to impress right away but loses much of the musical journey that way.

[publicist 4,643]

I prefer the chronological arrangement to the odd sequence of the original LP. I don't see any reason to hear "Liberation" until after you've gone through all the drama of the story.

It's a classic A-Side/B-Side LP sequence and composers like Williams (or Goldsmith) never really got away from this kind of assembly.

[Uni 306]

It's here. . . !

I spent a couple of minutes just holding it. I don't think I realized how long I've been waiting for them to release this one in expanded form. It's got a nice weight in the hand; two CD's and a good-sized booklet. This is one where I think (in anticipation, anyway) that reading will be just as important as listening.

Time to get to work on both. . . .

[Jay 37,346]

Enjoy Uni, it's a fantastic release in all regards! I too enjoy the weight of it and the high quality paper, and the art design and notes that are printed on the paper!

[rough cut 1,714]

I prefer the chronological arrangement to the odd sequence of the original LP. I don't see any reason to hear "Liberation" until after you've gone through all the drama of the story.

It's a classic A-Side/B-Side LP sequence and composers like Williams (or Goldsmith) never really got away from this kind of assembly.

Personally, I don't find the decision to close the A-side with "Liberation" to be odd at all. I think that from a listening point of view - when the producer doesn't know whether the listener will flip the LP to continue the listening experience - it makes for a logical decision. That doesn't mean I prefer to listen to the entire score that way, but If I were to make a 27 min playlist of EOTS (equivalent running time of side A), I'd probably make sure I ended it with "Exsultate Justi" in some form or another. Just as MM has done with both disc 1 and 2. That's all I meant.

[publicist 4,643]

If film score fans would produce soundtrack albums, there would be hardly any musical consideration - just 'chronological', even if it would mean to repeat a similar piece twice in a row.

[Uni 306]

Not so. Actually, we'd probably do it very much like what we've got with EOTS here—a chronological ordering of either the film versions or the OST versions (depends on which fan is doing the "producing"), with a second side/disc for the alternates and other business. The musical consideration would be there, it would just be taken in measure with the cinematic considerations.

[crocodile 8,000]

Well, whatever some might say, it is definitely a better listening experience than the old album. I was never very fond of it - too schizophrenic, shapeless and direction-less to really enjoy (despite high quality of writing). And it's not really even about chronological aspect (I don't know this score nearly enough to remember what goes where).

Karol

[spielboy 0]

If film score fans would produce soundtrack albums, there would be hardly any musical consideration - just 'chronological', even if it would mean to repeat a similar piece twice in a row.

They almost repetead a cue in the LP, just in different sides. Must the end of side A make that sense of a closure?

I would have used that extra-space for the climatic (and unreleased til 25 years later) "Bringing Them Back".

[Andy 4,119]

Why would anyone expect a blockbuster adventure score from this? It's a WWII drama.

In my post, I didn't say I expected a blockbuster adventure score. I said that it felt like a betrayal of the types of scores I grew up on. I wasn't stupid in 1987, I was fifteen. I think it's pretty easy to understand how a boy raised on Jaws, Star Wars, Superman, Raiders, and E.T. would find disappointment with Empire of the Sun.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I've been working on a mock-up of the unused Journey In Costumes which seems to have been replaced by Trip Through The Crowd. I think it's the strangest bit of music that he wrote for this film, even more unusual than the alternate The Return To The City. It's like a demented waltz. Really bizarre and unlike the rest of the score.

[Jay 37,346]

Awesome, can't wait to hear it!

[Incanus 5,714]

Oh darnation! I want the CD to arrive already! There is only some much glowing praise one can take!

[publicist 4,643]

. I think it's pretty easy to understand how a boy raised on Jaws, Star Wars, Superman, Raiders, and E.T. would find disappointment with Empire of the Sun.

Harder though why after almost 30 years this score still seems to elicit this reaction.

Oh darnation! I want the CD to arrive already! There is only some much glowing praise one can take!

Then download it till the real cd arrives.

[Incanus 5,714]

. I think it's pretty easy to understand how a boy raised on Jaws, Star Wars, Superman, Raiders, and E.T. would find disappointment with Empire of the Sun.

Harder though why after almost 30 years this score still seems to elicit this reaction.

Oh darnation! I want the CD to arrive already! There is only some much glowing praise one can take!

Then download it till the real cd arrives.

Oh definitely not! I want to experience this music first on the shiny new CDs. Call me old fashioned but there it is. Hopefully it will arrive this week at least.

[publicist 4,643]

I got it yesterday - incidentially listening to it while watching soccer with the sound turned off - and would offer my short verdict as follows: some worthy new music in the first half that fleshes out the ghostly atmosphere of the Shanghai scenes, one alternate of note (RETURN TO THE CITY), but there isn't really all that much added to the experience of the old album.

Contrary to what most here say, i found Williams' arrangement of the old album - and the pieces he chose - very apt.

[A24 4,331]

Agreed. The LP places the big stuff up front to impress right away but loses much of the musical journey that way.

Strange, it's one of my favorite musical journeys by Williams (Damn the internet, always someone with an opposite opinion, right?). I like how everything starts playful, heavenly, positive and descents into darkness. The emotional relief (the light at the end of the tunnel) comes with No Road Home/Seeing The Bomb. The celebration, the homecoming and the reward is Exsultate Justi (maxi single version).

[Incanus 5,714]

Agreed. The LP places the big stuff up front to impress right away but loses much of the musical journey that way.

Strange, it's one of my favorite musical journeys by Williams (Damn the internet, always someone with an opposite opinion, right?). I like how everything starts playful, heavenly, positive and descents into darkness. The emotional relief (the light at the end of the tunnel) comes with No Road Home/Seeing The Bomb. The celebration, the homecoming and the reward is Exsultate Justi.

So would you be willing to take a listen to the chronological version of the score and see how it works? Just for comparison? Or are you just too much attached to the original programme? Because even though the complete chronological score starts a bit darker it goes through pretty much the same journey you describe. I admit the balance between darkness and hope is more even in the chronological form but in the end the feeling of coming through this harrowing experience is very strong. And this just based on my viewings of the film and arranging the music into chronological order. I still have to confirm this on the new album.

[A24 4,331]

Well, it has to be since this journey sorta describes Jamie's journey. I would be willing to listen, sure, but I'm probably not going to buy the new version. In the past, I have always preferred John's journeys over the more complete and chronological versions.

[Incanus 5,714]

Ah you have chosen the side of Thor. So be it.

[A24 4,331]

You say it like there's no more hope for me.

[Incanus 5,714]

You say it like there's no more hope for me.

Nah. We just look/listen to this music with different preferences neither of which is better or worse in the end. Just the difference of tastes in this regard. We all do enjoy the music though which is important.

[indy4 155]

And to be honest, EOTS isn't exactly a 'challenging' score with its cooing choruses and (often) broad jubilant melodies (there are dissonant passages in RAIDERS, too). So why in god's earth it should be a huge departure i don't know - it even has the customary scherzo!

I agree. The score is great--and just as well thought-out and intelligently composed as any Williams score. But it's only slightly less accessible than his greatest hits. That's not an insult (I consider it a compliment to say that he is capable of writing music that is both throught-provoking and accessible simultaneously), I just wouldn't call EotS that much of a stretch from his earlier 80s scores.

[A24 4,331]

You say it like there's no more hope for me.

Nah. We just look/listen to this music with different preferences neither of which is better or worse in the end. Just the difference of tastes in this regard. We all do enjoy the music though which is important.

Not all of us, Incanus! Far from it! To most JWfans, the music is too somber and dreary, or as they say it, a "disappointment", not worthy of the composer who wrote those famous and beloved blockbuster themes.