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50 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

It depends.

 

I can't think of any scenario where I tell myself, "Ah, now I'm gonna get rid of the original soundtrack albums of E.T., Jaws, Home Alone, Star Wars, Empire of the Sun, etc."

 

I mean, even it we have the expanded versions (even the expanded versions with the OS albums included) I wouldn't tell myself that. I'll keep the OS albums for my collection. 

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5 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

I can't think of any scenario where I tell myself, "Ah, now I'm gonna get rid of the original soundtrack albums of E.T., Jaws, Home Alone, Star Wars, Empire of the Sun, etc."

 

I mean, even it we have the expanded versions (even the expanded versions with the OS albums included) I wouldn't tell myself that. I'll keep the OS albums for my collection. 

I do not.

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  • 1 year later...

Just listened to the Matessino-Burden podcast on this and Mike said something interesting: the melody JW weaves into the Mazurka comes back later cleverly.

 

 

 

Running through it in my head... did I get it right?

 

While the rest of New Life seems related to Exultate Justi - Liberation suddenly makes even more sense now!

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  • 1 month later...
  • 9 months later...

 

This cue from Once Upon a Time in the West and the beginning of The Pheasant Hunt in Empire Of The Sun sound a lot alike (to me). Oddly enough I can't find the cue on the Morricone soundtrack. Does anyone know where to find the cue used in Once Upon a Time in West and, any guesses, why The Pheasant Hunt sounds so similiar?

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On 4/16/2018 at 10:40 AM, Josh500 said:

 

I can't think of any scenario where I tell myself, "Ah, now I'm gonna get rid of the original soundtrack albums of E.T., Jaws, Home Alone, Star Wars, Empire of the Sun, etc."

 

I mean, even it we have the expanded versions (even the expanded versions with the OS albums included) I wouldn't tell myself that. I'll keep the OS albums for my collection. 

 

I used to think about not keeping the OSTs when an expansion was released, then I found out about things like using incorrect takes, clean openings and closings, different tape sources, excessive noise reduction, revisionist mixing and mastering, tapes transferred at incorrect speeds, etc., etc.

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I think the cue combinations done for the original OST album are kinda clunky.  The new main presentation is immensely more engaging, takes you on a real ride.  And yea the development of the score is really interesting, both in the music that got recorded one way then revised again, and in the way Spielberg ended up dropping it from certain scenes in the movie

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1 minute ago, rough cut said:

The expanded version of this score is a treasure. It truly is multilayered and you just fall more deeply in love with it with each listen.

 

I love the alternates, such as for Return to the city.

This alternate is definitely the highlight of the expansion, but the OST was almost perfect if only it would have included one of the cues featuring the "alone"-theme.

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29 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think the cue combinations done for the original OST album are kinda clunky.  The new main presentation is immensely more engaging, takes you on a real ride. 

A total masterpiece. After knowing it well, I once took a look at the OST tracklist, saw Cadillac of the Skies was Track 2, then clicked away because that's how much attention that's worth, JW's acute seemingly complete ignorance about his own storytelling and arcbuilding abilities would just have made me angry again.

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Some scores can be rearranged into something new using that sort of pop album "the lead single is the second track" mentality (The Wrath of Khan, Starship Troopers, and The Rocketeer are brilliant albums), and some just... can't.  Or shouldn't be.

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On 4/16/2018 at 10:40 AM, Josh500 said:

 

I can't think of any scenario where I tell myself, "Ah, now I'm gonna get rid of the original soundtrack albums of E.T., Jaws, Home Alone, Star Wars, Empire of the Sun, etc."

 

I mean, even it we have the expanded versions (even the expanded versions with the OS albums included) I wouldn't tell myself that. I'll keep the OS albums for my collection. 

 

I do not undestand the reasons to keep OST album when I have it on the expanded edition in better sound quality. 

1941, Dracula, Earthquake, E.T., Fitzwilly, The Fury, Home Alone, How to Steal a Million, Jaws, Jaws 2, The Missouri Breaks, Monsignor, Penelope, The River, Rosewood, Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Superman: The Movie and The Towering Inferno all have expanded editions containing original OST album too. I will never play the original OST album releases of these scores anymore. So why to keep them? It is the waste of space only.

 

I understand the reasons to keep original OST album of A.I., Empire of the Sun, Far and Away, Harry Potter 1-3, Hook, Jurassic Park, The Lost World, Minority Report, etc. since they are not included on the expanded editions. And that's why I have kept them.

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8 hours ago, Jay said:

Some scores can be rearranged into something new using that sort of pop album "the lead single is the second track" mentality (The Wrath of Khan, Starship Troopers, and The Rocketeer are brilliant albums), and some just... can't.  Or shouldn't be.

Or when he chooses the wrong one... Harry's Wondrous World, the one obviously intended as a post-score wrapup, that clearly takes the family and friends theme in new directions, not establishes them... yeah, track 2, great.

I also hate when he does it in SW, he includes the post-titles opening cue, maybe sticks something unrelated onto it but it sure is a film cue, you're eased into his quick live writing he does, you think it's properly starting, and yanks you out to take a step back to play concert pieces that are a completely different kind of writing and scream "I'm not advancing the storytelling, especially here!". I think TFA/TLJ do a lot better at integrating them than the prequels or ESB or TROS. At least somethink like Crystal Skull is all concert pieces or concertlike edits for a while, it's a proper long overture instead of starting proper then stepping back.

 

And when you yank out a proper score cue highlight... chances are, more often than not it's truly a highlight because it's a climactic payoff to a buildup, not only because it's well done. But now that you yanked it out, it's not a payoff, and the buildup won't work without it, so you now kind of have to mess all that up too. No matter, the normies who just wanna hear da cool song from da moovi can just listen to the first 2 tracks and stop (maybe if those were sprinkled throughout they'd have more incentive to listen and grow to appreciate the rest of it too?) and the semi-normies who are too lazy to live with something, do a deep dive, get into it, discover things, appreciate structure and arcs and setup and payoff and thematic development and musical storytelling, and just want alternating high and low energy tracks so they won't get bored, will say it's a GrEaT lIsTeNiNg ExPeRiEnCe anyway.

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7 hours ago, E-Wan said:

 

I do not undestand the reasons to keep OST album when I have it on the expanded edition in better sound quality. 

You’d understand if your tendencies as a collector veered to the completist. Even deprecated OSTs have historical or even sentimental value. (And if nothing else, they usually came in far better quality jewel cases than the flimsy ones we get today—and those old cases are only getting rarer!)

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12 hours ago, E-Wan said:

 

I do not undestand the reasons to keep OST album when I have it on the expanded edition in better sound quality. 

1941, Dracula, Earthquake, E.T., Fitzwilly, The Fury, Home Alone, How to Steal a Million, Jaws, Jaws 2, The Missouri Breaks, Monsignor, Penelope, The River, Rosewood, Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Superman: The Movie and The Towering Inferno all have expanded editions containing original OST album too. I will never play the original OST album releases of these scores anymore. So why to keep them? It is the waste of space only.

 

I understand the reasons to keep original OST album of A.I., Empire of the Sun, Far and Away, Harry Potter 1-3, Hook, Jurassic Park, The Lost World, Minority Report, etc. since they are not included on the expanded editions. And that's why I have kept them.

 

Well, for me, it's about the collector's value (plus a dose of nostalgia). If  you own the first edition of your favourite book (let's say Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or whatever), would you throw it away because a newer version came out with better, more legible print, with a new introduction and afterword, new illustrations, updated cover art etc.? 

 

Well, for me, that's a big no. The first edition will always hold a very special place in my heart. But that's just me. You're welcome to have your own take on things. ;)

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I agree. I never get rid of original editions after getting extended ones - from sentiment, and sometimes because the original shorter program is still attractive to listen to. And let's not forget that in the 80s and 90s the discs were made of better quality materials than now, which may mean that the original releases will survive much longer than the extended ones.

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15 hours ago, Bayesian said:

You’d understand if your tendencies as a collector veered to the completist. Even deprecated OSTs have historical or even sentimental value. (And if nothing else, they usually came in far better quality jewel cases than the flimsy ones we get today—and those old cases are only getting rarer!)

 

Maybe that is my problem because I have never been the completist and sentimental.

You are right the new jewel cases are terrible. So I'm changing them for the old ones.

 

10 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

Well, for me, it's about the collector's value (plus a dose of nostalgia). If  you own the first edition of your favourite book (let's say Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or whatever), would you throw it away because a newer version came out with better, more legible print, with a new introduction and afterword, new illustrations, updated cover art etc.? 

 

Well, for me, that's a big no. The first edition will always hold a very special place in my heart. But that's just me. You're welcome to have your own take on things. ;)

 

I usually keep the first edition of the book and do not bother to buy new version because the story is the same. This is not the same situation with original OST album versus expanded edition containing the OST program.

 

As I have written I'm not sentimental so I do not see any reason to keep for example original Varese album releases of 1941, Dracula, Earthquake, The Fury, Jaws 2 and The River with poor 4-page booklet with practically no liner notes and only few images from the film and in some cases with very bad sound quality (listen to Dracula).

 

10 hours ago, Pawel P. said:

I agree. I never get rid of original editions after getting extended ones - from sentiment, and sometimes because the original shorter program is still attractive to listen to. And let's not forget that in the 80s and 90s the discs were made of better quality materials than now, which may mean that the original releases will survive much longer than the extended ones.

 

I have never heard this information that older releases will survive longer than the newer ones.

Where you have heard/read this? Do you have some links to the source of this information?

 

I usually have the opossite experience. Some older CD or DVD discs in my collection have changed the colour and started to have problems during playback. Some of them are unplayable now.

 

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2 hours ago, E-Wan said:

As I have written I'm not sentimental so I do not see any reason to keep for example original Varese album releases of 1941, Dracula, Earthquake, The Fury, Jaws 2 and The River with poor 4-page booklet with practically no liner notes and only few images from the film and in some cases with very bad sound quality (listen to Dracula).

 

Well, that's you - like I said, I feel differently. Besides, my home is large enough to accommodate all of my CD collection... 

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5 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

Well, that's you - like I said, I feel differently. Besides, my home is large enough to accommodate all of my CD collection... 

 

Yes, it is one of the reasons why I'm not keeping the redundant old OST albums - the lack of space in my home.

 

To keep all old releases I will need this space ;)

 

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9 hours ago, E-Wan said:

I have never heard this information that older releases will survive longer than the newer ones.

Where you have heard/read this? Do you have some links to the source of this information?

 

I usually have the opossite experience. Some older CD or DVD discs in my collection have changed the colour and started to have problems during playback. Some of them are unplayable now.

 

 

Well, I have no proof of this, but this view is presented by some of my collector friends. It never happened to me that a disc from the 80s and 90s stopped working, and I have over 3,500 CDs, but I had several such cases with later produced CD's. It's also worth noting that today's CDs are slightly thinner and lighter than those produced 20 or 30 years ago.

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8 minutes ago, Pawel P. said:

 

Well, I have no proof of this, but this view is presented by some of my collector friends. It never happened to me that a disc from the 80s and 90s stopped working, and I have over 3,500 CDs, but I had several such cases with later produced CD's. It's also worth noting that today's CDs are slightly thinner and lighter than those produced 20 or 30 years ago.

 

It is interesting. I have never heard about this problem before.

It has never occurred to me to compare the weight and thickness of CDs.

Can you mention which of the later produced CDs in your collection have stopped working?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/12/2020 at 6:53 PM, lemoncurd said:

 

This cue from Once Upon a Time in the West and the beginning of The Pheasant Hunt in Empire Of The Sun sound a lot alike (to me). Oddly enough I can't find the cue on the Morricone soundtrack. Does anyone know where to find the cue used in Once Upon a Time in West and, any guesses, why The Pheasant Hunt sounds so similiar?

 

The Morricone track is "The Transgression":

 

I noticed this too and brought it up several years ago in one of the Williams "plagiarism" threads. As for a reason, the more I study Williams and his film scoring techniques, the more I'm convinced that moments like these, where an original shines through clearly, are simply the result of him following a temp track.

 

I'd say that this probable temp was there because the situation is very similar: a main character crossing a dangerous terrain with a constant hidden threat of death. In Once Upon a Time in the West, Frank is crossing through the town with hidden gunmen trying to kill him at every turn and Harmonica killing the gunmen to keep Frank alive (so he can kill him himself!). In Empire of the Sun, Jim is trying to cross under the fence of a POW camp with armed guards watching everywhere. As to why this temp remained clear in Williams' score is beyond me. Maybe Spielberg just liked the temp!

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On 7/14/2020 at 11:14 PM, E-Wan said:

 

It is interesting. I have never heard about this problem before.

It has never occurred to me to compare the weight and thickness of CDs.

Can you mention which of the later produced CDs in your collection have stopped working?

I noticed Lalaland's recent cds seem to be thinner. They play fine for the moment...

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On 7/14/2020 at 11:14 PM, E-Wan said:

 

It is interesting. I have never heard about this problem before.

It has never occurred to me to compare the weight and thickness of CDs.

Can you mention which of the later produced CDs in your collection have stopped working?

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer earlier. A two metal CD's, nothing mainstream. But listen, I don't know if these new CDs are any worse than the old ones. Certainly some editions weigh less, which I checked when comparing the same titles (e.g. Metallica's 'Load' pressed in the 90s and now) and this may or may not mean anything.

 

The only score I had to rebuy - two times! - as it was useless was Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition (European edition), but I suppose it's the more toxic dimension of a plastic tray or packaging, not a CD's defect. Now I keep them separate from the original packaging, and everything is fine with it.

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14 hours ago, Ludwig said:

 

The Morricone track is "The Transgression":

 

I noticed this too and brought it up several years ago in one of the Williams "plagiarism" threads. As for a reason, the more I study Williams and his film scoring techniques, the more I'm convinced that moments like these, where an original shines through clearly, are simply the result of him following a temp track.

 

I'd say that this probable temp was there because the situation is very similar: a main character crossing a dangerous terrain with a constant hidden threat of death. In Once Upon a Time in the West, Frank is crossing through the town with hidden gunmen trying to kill him at every turn and Harmonica killing the gunmen to keep Frank alive (so he can kill him himself!). In Empire of the Sun, Jim is trying to cross under the fence of a POW camp with armed guards watching everywhere. As to why this temp remained clear in Williams' score is beyond me. Maybe Spielberg just liked the temp!

 

thanks!

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23 hours ago, Ludwig said:

 

The Morricone track is "The Transgression":

 

I noticed this too and brought it up several years ago in one of the Williams "plagiarism" threads. As for a reason, the more I study Williams and his film scoring techniques, the more I'm convinced that moments like these, where an original shines through clearly, are simply the result of him following a temp track.

 

I'd say that this probable temp was there because the situation is very similar: a main character crossing a dangerous terrain with a constant hidden threat of death. In Once Upon a Time in the West, Frank is crossing through the town with hidden gunmen trying to kill him at every turn and Harmonica killing the gunmen to keep Frank alive (so he can kill him himself!). In Empire of the Sun, Jim is trying to cross under the fence of a POW camp with armed guards watching everywhere. As to why this temp remained clear in Williams' score is beyond me. Maybe Spielberg just liked the temp!

To be fair, Morricone seems to be channeling Edgar Varese!😊

 

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On 8/4/2020 at 9:21 AM, Pawel P. said:

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer earlier. A two metal CD's, nothing mainstream. But listen, I don't know if these new CDs are any worse than the old ones. Certainly some editions weigh less, which I checked when comparing the same titles (e.g. Metallica's 'Load' pressed in the 90s and now) and this may or may not mean anything.

 

The only score I had to rebuy - two times! - as it was useless was Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition (European edition), but I suppose it's the more toxic dimension of a plastic tray or packaging, not a CD's defect. Now I keep them separate from the original packaging, and everything is fine with it.

 

You are right. I have the same problem with Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition.

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  • 2 months later...

While there is WotW hype on jwfan, I suddenly decided to make EOTS mockup. This is a cue 2M1 "Journey in Costumes" - old alternative to Trip Through the Crowd.
In fact, this cue turned out to be even more interesting than I expected. I haven't tried matching the mockup to the movie yet, but it looks like it should match for final editing.

 

My little cringe description:
The beginning of the cue is very similar to the beginning of the final version (the "screamer" in the old version sounds more simple). The chorus enters at the same moment as in the final version, but sounds darker and more dissonant (the repeating chords of the electronic piano are a little like the ending of The Streets of Shanghai). Further, a completely different material begins. The piano solo plays a repetitive short motive. Gradually, other instruments are added, the tremolo of strings ceases to sound, and a sudden dramatic climax appears (apparently, this is how Williams wanted to demonstrate that Jim perceives the world differently from this moment on). And the cue ends on a dissonant chord. 

 

 

 

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Wow, great work!  So nice to finally see/hear this after all this time

 

Spielberg made the right call to ask for a re-write, that's for sure!

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4 minutes ago, Jay said:

Spielberg made the right call to ask for a re-write, that's for sure!

This version of the cue is not bad in its idea, but in the film it certainly does not sound entirely appropriate (especially this piano solo). As for me, the situation is similar with The Return to the City - I really love the old version (I even think it could have been included in OST album instead of the final one), but in the film it would have sounded strange.

 

Btw, it seems to me that at the end of Japanese Infantry there is a cross between old and final versions of Trip Through the Crowd.

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