A Guide To Hans Zimmer's "The Dark Knight Rises"

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

... redacted ...

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

The Dark Knight Motive - The Batman Motive, but with the second note harmonized by a chromatic and unsettling chord, for when the surety and resoluteness of the original is inappropriate.

In Neo-Reinmannian Theory this (Dm <-> DbMaj) is called the Slide (S), where the third remains constant, while the tonic and fifth slide down a semitone. Great at creating a sense of both instability and discovery, since it charts a completely new harmonic territory. Dream is Collapsing from INCEPTION makes great use of it - Gm -> GbMaj -> EbMaj -> BMaj7.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Aye, and if you want to provide that kind of commentary for anything else, go for it. I tried to keep most of my language descriptive rather than technical though so as to be more widely useful.

[Ludwig 1,000]

The Dark Knight Motive - The Batman Motive, but with the second note harmonized by a chromatic and unsettling chord, for when the surety and resoluteness of the original is inappropriate.

In Neo-Reinmannian Theory this (Dm <-> DbMaj) is called the Slide (S), where the third remains constant, while the tonic and fifth slide down a semitone.

You're right about Inception, but actually the Dark Knight one's not a SLIDE because the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F and a G is often added on its tail end - I suppose it could be called an altered dominant, especially with that tritone C#-G. Also you've usually got an ostinato running through it that creates a sort of elaborated pedal on D, clarifying that the Db is actually C# of the D minor scale.

I thought the same thing, that is was a SLIDE, until I went to transcribe the theme for my blog. But thanks for introducing Neo-Riemannian theory to the board. It'll be a good addition to the theory discussions.

*************************************

Who, this is a truly fantastic post. Enough detail to keep anyone busy for weeks. How long did this take you?

Also, can I just call you GP? Every time I type "Who", I feel like I'm going to lapse into the old "who's on first" routine.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Haha, well, I typed it all out today, but I've been getting to know the film and score since they first came out, of course, so these ideas have been floating around for a while. Same goes for Inception, which now just needs to be typed out as well. And call me Michael, or Mike, or whatever variant of that strikes your fancy!

BTW Sharky, thanks for that thing. Nice to be able to see it.

[Glóin the Dark 1,068]

the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F

Is there anything in particular that leads you to distinguish the C# from Db? (My meagre musical education was all undertaken in an implicit 12-tone equal temperament context.)

[Ludwig 1,000]

the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F

Is there anything in particular that leads you to distinguish the C# from Db? (My meagre musical education was all undertaken in an implicit 12-tone equal temperament context.)

The fact that the D minor scale is still audible through the ostinato, which actually starts on C# and leads straight to D. What I'm saying is that the chord is composed not of a major third, which would give it a positive sound, but rather a diminished fourth, which is actually a dissonant interval that has a long association in classical music with expressions of grief. This is why I labelled the theme "Batman troubled" in my blog analysis.

[Jay 27,216]

I liked TheGreyPilgrim as a username better than Who? as well. Plus there's been a severe lack of Gandalf avatars lately.

[King Mark 2,924]

Who? and Guest2 are the worst current JWfan user names

and people would stick to their original user name unless everyone knows 100% who that person is.

[Jay 27,216]

guest2 is the worst username this board has ever seen.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Jay, when I requested you change mine back to TGP, you said you liked the new one and convinced me to keep it!

Wow, I didn't realize how much of those cues I pinned down as "sound design" was built on manipulated recordings of the live orchestra playing with all sorts of extended techniques. I assumed it was all done with synths.

[Glóin the Dark 1,068]

The fact that the D minor scale is still audible through the ostinato, which actually starts on C# and leads straight to D. What I'm saying is that the chord is composed not of a major third, which would give it a positive sound, but rather a diminished fourth, which is actually a dissonant interval that has a long association in classical music with expressions of grief.

Okay, cheers! Is the diminished fourth/major third distinction discernible from the actual pitches, or is it something which arises from the musical context in which it occurs? (I suppose I'm basically asking: can this be played properly on a piano?)

I liked TheGreyPilgrim

Who?

[KK 3,202]

This is very impressive Mike. And though I consider it one of Zimmer's weakest scores, I look forward to digging into your analysis.

I'm more intrigued by what you have to say about Inception though.

[Ludwig 1,000]

The fact that the D minor scale is still audible through the ostinato, which actually starts on C# and leads straight to D. What I'm saying is that the chord is composed not of a major third, which would give it a positive sound, but rather a diminished fourth, which is actually a dissonant interval that has a long association in classical music with expressions of grief.

Okay, cheers! Is the diminished fourth/major third distinction discernible from the actual pitches, or is it something which arises from the musical context in which it occurs? (I suppose I'm basically asking: can this be played properly on a piano?)

Yes, it's a contextual thing. Played completely on its own, we would say it's a major third. But notice that the chord is always preceded by a long melodic D, so it's clear that the C# it moves to is the leading note of the scale, giving us the diminished fourth when combined with F.

I liked TheGreyPilgrim

Who?

Really didn't mean to start a username war on this. Is was more like, "can I call you Bill instead of William", kind of thing, something that just flows more.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

This is very impressive Mike. And though I consider it one of Zimmer's weakest scores, I look forward to digging into your analysis.

I'm more intrigued by what you have to say about Inception though.

While I (obviously) don't consider DKR to be anything close to a weak score, I do prefer Inception. But I knew if I did that first, I wouldn't have the motivation to do this one after it. I'll probably have it done by tomorrow night around this time.

[Red 73]

Really good and thorough analysis. There are several motifs and general textures that are reused from the other films but it is impressive to me how much of the thematic material is new. You never once hear Harvey Dent's theme from Knight for instance and the dedicated themes attached to Bane and Catwoman give the score a uniqueness among the trilogy (not to mention more synth usage). Catwoman's material especially sounds very distinct from everything else in the trilogy's scores, fitting the character.

[Ludwig 1,000]

This is very impressive Mike. And though I consider it one of Zimmer's weakest scores, I look forward to digging into your analysis.

I'm more intrigued by what you have to say about Inception though.

While I (obviously) don't consider DKR to be anything close to a weak score, I do prefer Inception. But I knew if I did that first, I wouldn't have the motivation to do this one after it. I'll probably have it done by tomorrow night around this time.

Looking forward to it.

[KK 3,202]

This is very impressive Mike. And though I consider it one of Zimmer's weakest scores, I look forward to digging into your analysis.

I'm more intrigued by what you have to say about Inception though.

While I (obviously) don't consider DKR to be anything close to a weak score, I do prefer Inception. But I knew if I did that first, I wouldn't have the motivation to do this one after it. I'll probably have it done by tomorrow night around this time.

Nice! I had mixed feelings about Inception at first but it has really grown on me and I've come to really appreciate it, that's why I look forward to what you have to say about it.

You've given me my reading material for the weekend!

[Jay 27,216]

I did like it at first, that whole day was really funny, but I ended up missing the old one in the end . But I won't derail your thread any further

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Derail all you want Jay - I wouldn't delete anything off topic, even if I could.

I wouldn't mind being Mithrandir again. I leave the choice to change in your hands.

[Incanus 5,519]

Wow extensive stuff! I'll delve into this (and Alvar's Robin Hood stuff) later! Who? knows, perhaps this might make me appreciate the music more.

Oh and wouldn't it be better if this was moved to the Reviews Section like almost all the other analyses?

[Jay 27,216]

Nope, it's entirely your call

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Let's change back then.

By the way, the full score is on Youtube in case anyone doesn't have it for themselves and wants to actually listen along with this.

[crocodile 6,294]

guest2 is the worst username this board has ever seen.

I was about to beat even that by changing mine to gu3st.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

guest2 is the worst username this board has ever seen.

Worse then Jay or Joey?

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

The Dark Knight Motive - The Batman Motive, but with the second note harmonized by a chromatic and unsettling chord, for when the surety and resoluteness of the original is inappropriate.

In Neo-Reinmannian Theory this (Dm <-> DbMaj) is called the Slide (S), where the third remains constant, while the tonic and fifth slide down a semitone.

You're right about Inception, but actually the Dark Knight one's not a SLIDE because the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F and a G is often added on its tail end - I suppose it could be called an altered dominant, especially with that tritone C#-G. Also you've usually got an ostinato running through it that creates a sort of elaborated pedal on D, clarifying that the Db is actually C# of the D minor scale.

Are you're we talking about the same progression here? The one I'm referring to alters the ostinato on the second chord, so it oscillates between Db and F (or C# and F). I remember an 'epic sounding' development of this progression in TDKR that uses #4/11th appoggiaturas with a climbing melody - similar to JNH's heroic King Kong theme that Lehman analyses in that paper. Dm -> Bb -> Fm -> Db. L -> LPR (M) -> L. The Modalverwandt transformation from Bb to Fm marking a modulation from Dm to Fm. I think that's what caused me to view the earlier 2 chord motif as Dm - Db, a case of what you might call 'retrospective reinterpretation.'

Another 2 chord motif that comes to fore in the third film is Dm -> Am6. I recall hearing it in the opening Batcycle chase and when Bruce climbs out of the prison.

I liked TheGreyPilgrim as a username better than Who? as well. Plus there's been a severe lack of Gandalf avatars lately.

TGP sold out for me when he ditched the Carl Sagan avatar.

Wow, I didn't realize how much of those cues I pinned down as "sound design" was built on manipulated recordings of the live orchestra playing with all sorts of extended techniques. I assumed it was all done with synths.

I know, right? When I first read through those cues, the thing that went through mind was 'wow, Hans is really trying to channel Elliot Goldenthal ain't he?' Quartertone clusters, quartertone pitch wavers, piano strings muted with the hand, silently depressed clusters, piano string glissandos, waterphone, superball mallets rubbing on the edges of timpani will glissing with pedal etc. I wonder if it was HZ who came up with this stuff or Carl Rydlund?

I think you should include some of that in the original post. It'd probably be more interesting to read to those without a background in theory than my Neo-Riemannian bollox. Maybe a seperate section for orchestration?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

A scholarly dissection of two Zimmer scores....on JWFan?

I believe today must be a low point in the history of this website.

[crocodile 6,294]

Nah, when we start to analyse chord progression and use of atonality in One Direction's output. This eill be the day!

Thanks for the write-up! I shall read it lager.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,532]

Thanks for the write-up! I shall read it lager.

Don't you mean "I shall read it with a lager"?

[Quintus 5,391]

guest2 is the worst username this board has ever seen.

Who?

[crocodile 6,294]

Freudian slip!

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I'd recommend a fine ale to go with this thread. Something with notes of citrus.

The Dark Knight Motive - The Batman Motive, but with the second note harmonized by a chromatic and unsettling chord, for when the surety and resoluteness of the original is inappropriate.

In Neo-Reinmannian Theory this (Dm <-> DbMaj) is called the Slide (S), where the third remains constant, while the tonic and fifth slide down a semitone.

You're right about Inception, but actually the Dark Knight one's not a SLIDE because the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F and a G is often added on its tail end - I suppose it could be called an altered dominant, especially with that tritone C#-G. Also you've usually got an ostinato running through it that creates a sort of elaborated pedal on D, clarifying that the Db is actually C# of the D minor scale.

Are you're we talking about the same progression here? The one I'm referring to alters the ostinato on the second chord, so it oscillates between Db and F (or C# and F). I remember an 'epic sounding' development of this progression in TDKR that uses #4/11th appoggiaturas with a climbing melody - similar to JNH's heroic King Kong theme that Lehman analyses in that paper. Dm -> Bb -> Fm -> Db. L -> LPR (M) -> L. The Modalverwandt transformation from Bb to Fm marking a modulation from Dm to Fm. I think that's what caused me to view the earlier 2 chord motif as Dm - Db, a case of what you might call 'retrospective reinterpretation.'

Another 2 chord motif that comes to fore in the third film is Dm -> Am6. I recall hearing it in the opening Batcycle chase and when Bruce climbs out of the prison.

I liked TheGreyPilgrim as a username better than Who? as well. Plus there's been a severe lack of Gandalf avatars lately.

TGP sold out for me when he ditched the Carl Sagan avatar.

Wow, I didn't realize how much of those cues I pinned down as "sound design" was built on manipulated recordings of the live orchestra playing with all sorts of extended techniques. I assumed it was all done with synths.

I know, right? When I first read through those cues, the thing that went through mind was 'wow, Hans is really trying to channel Elliot Goldenthal ain't he?' Quartertone clusters, quartertone pitch wavers, piano strings muted with the hand, silently depressed clusters, piano string glissandos, waterphone, superball mallets rubbing on the edges of timpani will glissing with pedal etc. I wonder if it was HZ who came up with this stuff or Carl Rydlund?

I think you should include some of that in the original post. It'd probably be more interesting to read to those without a background in theory than my Neo-Riemannian bollox. Maybe a seperate section for orchestration?

I think with Inception I'll include a section on orchestration/textures.

Also if I had to guess who comes up with what, I would say Hans does the electronic "soundscapes" and leaves it up to Fowler and the rest to come up with the orchestral timbres to compliment them.

[Jay 27,216]

Ever consider doing a Williams score?

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

I was only suggesting it for this 'cos we have more of the score. AFAIK, the only stuff from INCEPTION that's leaked is one cue (Welcome Home Mr. Cobb) and the Ghent suite.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I planned to do A.I., but Mikko already did a fine thematic analysis. Then I thought I'd do one focused on nitty-gritty musical analysis, but there's not enough of the written score out there for a complete assessment.

I've also been mulling the idea of doing Memoirs, but have the same problem regarding the score.

[Quintus 5,391]

A MoS one would be good. I don't know the Batman scores.

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

I planned to do A.I., but Mikko already did a fine thematic analysis. Then I thought I'd do one focused on nitty-gritty musical analysis, but there's not enough of the written score out there for a complete assessment.

I've also been mulling the idea of doing Memoirs, but have the same problem regarding the score.

The complete sketch score MEMOIRS is attainable, although the set of fully orchestrated cues are incomplete.

I'd like to help out on MOS, if you ever get round to that. Bouncing off ideas etc. None of the score has leaked yet, but joining the dots isn't so hard.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I prefer the sketches anyway.

And yeah, I guess only the one cue from Inception is out there but it would still be fun to try working out the textures by ear.

Lee, I'm not familiar enough with the way the MoS score works in the film. Sharky should do that one.

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

Hmm... I'll have a crack at it, following your template here. I would like to include notated examples after each motif like Ludwig does in his blog, but unfortunately I don't have Sibelius.

[Quintus 5,391]

Bookmarked

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Et tu Leigh?

[Ludwig 1,000]

The Dark Knight Motive - The Batman Motive, but with the second note harmonized by a chromatic and unsettling chord, for when the surety and resoluteness of the original is inappropriate.

In Neo-Reinmannian Theory this (Dm <-> DbMaj) is called the Slide (S), where the third remains constant, while the tonic and fifth slide down a semitone.

You're right about Inception, but actually the Dark Knight one's not a SLIDE because the second chord isn't Db major. It's C#-F and a G is often added on its tail end - I suppose it could be called an altered dominant, especially with that tritone C#-G. Also you've usually got an ostinato running through it that creates a sort of elaborated pedal on D, clarifying that the Db is actually C# of the D minor scale.

Are you're we talking about the same progression here? The one I'm referring to alters the ostinato on the second chord, so it oscillates between Db and F (or C# and F). I remember an 'epic sounding' development of this progression in TDKR that uses #4/11th appoggiaturas with a climbing melody - similar to JNH's heroic King Kong theme that Lehman analyses in that paper. Dm -> Bb -> Fm -> Db. L -> LPR (M) -> L. The Modalverwandt transformation from Bb to Fm marking a modulation from Dm to Fm. I think that's what caused me to view the earlier 2 chord motif as Dm - Db, a case of what you might call 'retrospective reinterpretation.'

Yes, that's the one. It certainly has resonances with the other progressions that move voices largely by semitones, but it remains different. Play Dm - Dbmaj on a piano and you'll find it sounds too sweet compared to the score. Substitute in the C#-F-G instead and you'll probably find it sounds right.

The epic progression you mention is what I called one of Batman's "succeeding" themes, of which there are many (half a dozen or so) and all of which are essentially interchangeable and even play one after the other.

What's the M in Lehman's analysis? Performing LPR on Bb takes you to Bm, so I assume the M is another operation - maybe a tritone transposition?

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Hmm... I'll have a crack at it, following your template here. I would like to include notated examples after each motif like Ludwig does in his blog, but unfortunately I don't have Sibelius.

Didn't you use a site on here in the past that lets you do notation and then share it?

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

Yes, that's the one. It certainly has resonances with the other progressions that move voices largely by semitones, but it remains different. Play Dm - Dbmaj on a piano and you'll find it sounds too sweet compared to the score. Substitute in the C#-F-G instead and you'll probably find it sounds right.

You're half right. I checked the cues for where it turns up, and it's actually bvi in first inversion, or Wagner's famous Tarnhelm progression (or as Lehman's dubs it - 'Vaderhelm'). The brass and strings only play the Db-F third, but the ostinato figure outline the entire chord (F-Bb-Db-Bb etc).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7OAR3JjiSY

2:28

Much more obvious here where it modulates to Fm.

What's the M in Lehman's analysis? Performing LPR on Bb takes you to Bm, so I assume the M is another operation - maybe a tritone transposition?

Doh! I meant LRP. To quote Lehman:

Modalverwandt is my invention. The name “Modalverwandt” (M) is meant to analogize with the similarly fifth-traversing N. M is not to be confused with Kopp’s (2002) mediant-oriented M and m relations; by his system, my Modalverwandt would rather be designated by his F(ifth-change) operation. Morris (1998) observes that P, L, and R have transformational twins when defined such that the defining interval (e.g. ic3, 4, or 5) is inverted about a stable pitch rather than the pitch about an interval. He labels these corresponding transformations P′, L′, and R′, homologous to my S, N, and M. By using distinct transformation labels here, I wish to distinguish these progressions as discrete and autonomous rather than derived.

To cut to the chase, Gm -> C would be an example of a Modalverwant, since it's involves mode mixture (Dorian or Mixolydian).

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Best thing about listening to Zimmer on hot days: the subwoofer becomes an extra source of moving air.

[Ludwig 1,000]

What's the M in Lehman's analysis? Performing LPR on Bb takes you to Bm, so I assume the M is another operation - maybe a tritone transposition?

Doh! I meant LRP. To quote Lehman:

Modalverwandt is my invention. The name “Modalverwandt” (M) is meant to analogize with the similarly fifth-traversing N. M is not to be confused with Kopp’s (2002) mediant-oriented M and m relations; by his system, my Modalverwandt would rather be designated by his F(ifth-change) operation. Morris (1998) observes that P, L, and R have transformational twins when defined such that the defining interval (e.g. ic3, 4, or 5) is inverted about a stable pitch rather than the pitch about an interval. He labels these corresponding transformations P′, L′, and R′, homologous to my S, N, and M. By using distinct transformation labels here, I wish to distinguish these progressions as discrete and autonomous rather than derived.

To cut to the chase, Gm -> C would be an example of a Modalverwant, since it's involves mode mixture (Dorian or Mixolydian).

Cheers. That makes more sense now.

Yes, that's the one. It certainly has resonances with the other progressions that move voices largely by semitones, but it remains different. Play Dm - Dbmaj on a piano and you'll find it sounds too sweet compared to the score. Substitute in the C#-F-G instead and you'll probably find it sounds right.

You're half right. I checked the cues for where it turns up, and it's actually bvi in first inversion, or Wagner's famous Tarnhelm progression (or as Lehman's dubs it - 'Vaderhelm'). The brass and strings only play the Db-F third, but the ostinato figure outline the entire chord (F-Bb-Db-Bb etc).

Isn't the ostinato just doing the Bat-figure F-D altered to the diminished fourth, F-C#? I don't hear any Bb.

[Sharkissimo 1,971]

Yes, that's the one. It certainly has resonances with the other progressions that move voices largely by semitones, but it remains different. Play Dm - Dbmaj on a piano and you'll find it sounds too sweet compared to the score. Substitute in the C#-F-G instead and you'll probably find it sounds right.

You're half right. I checked the cues for where it turns up, and it's actually bvi in first inversion, or Wagner's famous Tarnhelm progression (or as Lehman's dubs it - 'Vaderhelm'). The brass and strings only play the Db-F third, but the ostinato figure outline the entire chord (F-Bb-Db-Bb etc).

Isn't the ostinato just doing the Bat-figure F-D altered to the diminished fourth, F-C#? I don't hear any Bb.

Well, that's what appears in the orchestrated score.

[Ludwig 1,000]

Yes, that's the one. It certainly has resonances with the other progressions that move voices largely by semitones, but it remains different. Play Dm - Dbmaj on a piano and you'll find it sounds too sweet compared to the score. Substitute in the C#-F-G instead and you'll probably find it sounds right.

You're half right. I checked the cues for where it turns up, and it's actually bvi in first inversion, or Wagner's famous Tarnhelm progression (or as Lehman's dubs it - 'Vaderhelm'). The brass and strings only play the Db-F third, but the ostinato figure outline the entire chord (F-Bb-Db-Bb etc).

Isn't the ostinato just doing the Bat-figure F-D altered to the diminished fourth, F-C#? I don't hear any Bb.

Well, that's what appears in the orchestrated score.

So now you play your trump card. Why didn't you say so? I thought we were doing this all by ear.

[tedfud 36]

sneaky.....very sneaky

t

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Well Inception is going to take a bit longer than I thought but it'll get done.