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IF YOU'VE COME HERE TO DISCUSS THE NATURE OF PLAGIARISM VS. HOMAGE, THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD! TURN BACK NOW, NOW I SAY!!!

There, I said it.

Now let's have a nice little thread about things in Williams that sound like other things you've heard. (Obvious ones encouraged, even ones many of us already know. Think of this as a reference catalogue for us JWFanners.)

If possible, YouTube videos with timestamps would be best (and titles for the videos in the post as well since they may well disappear from YouTube at some point).

Go!

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Is this the thread to discuss plagiarism vs homage? I'm just teasing!! Here is an homage:

A.i. Rouge city;

John Adams, Grand Pianola Music opening minute:

 

The most obvious influence is actually Steve Reich's Three Movements for Orchestra, more specifically the 3rd movement (13:19 onwards, and pay attention to 15:45).

 

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I'm still impressed that John *does* listen to more progressive and minimalist music. I guess he must take a lot of time during his day to actually listen to classical music, and it's not just say Schubert or Mozart.

Surely he would listen to the modern 20th century stuff (say, Ives or Britten) but it also shows that he takes time to hear stuff that is composed by living people.

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This thread is essentially what I was trying to do with the flop I started a few months ago. I'll post some contributions later this week! Already enjoying some of the above posts. :)

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Another obvious one:

Richard Strauss, Tod und Verklärung, @12:42 - 12:49

Williams, Superman Flying/Love Theme, @3:22

http://youtu.be/O57UKmtDGgg

It's not just the melody that's similar here, but, more strikingly, the harmony, which in the first two chords has the Lydian I-II progression that has become a Williams trademark.

Williams adds the "tail" that the melody seems to need to become a true theme. Great little tail it is too.

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We all know the reference to Korngold's Kings Row in Williams' Star Wars. But the discussion always stops there, as if it's some sort of truism that the two are "the same". As you know, I am rather fond of busting myths, especially with Star Wars, and this is another one.

Musicologist Peter Larsen in his book Film Music contrasts the two themes elegantly:

In the literature on Star Wars a number of Williams's themes are characterized as quotations or loans. A whole range of classical composers, from Tchaikovsky to Bartók, has been quoted as sources. On closer inspection it normally transpires that we are dealing with fairly superficial similarities. . . .

Hollywood composers such as Max Steiner and Erich Korngold have also been mentioned as sources. For example, Luke's theme is usually thought to be a direct loan from Korngold's music for the film Kings Row. There are certainly similarities between the themes. Both start with a triplet upbeat, a 'heroic' upward leap of a fifth in the first bar, a stepwise descending movement in the second bar. But if one listens to the themes in the actual musical context it is obvious that the similarity is only superficial. The rhythm in the descending figure is different in the two themes, and the figures have completely different functions. In the Kings Row theme the figure is part of a movement that brings the music to rest; in the Star Wars theme the figure is a triplet that forms the upbeat to yet another upward 'heroic' leap.

And most elegant of all,

When so many spectators nevertheless feel that they can recognize Star Wars music from works by classical composers or from other films, this is because Williams exploits his comprehensive knowledge of Romantic and late Romantic music as well as of the composers of the Golden Age in order to evoke moods and associations that match the action of the film. We are seldom dealing with direct quotations or loans of themes, rather with a virtuoso exploitation of established formulas and techniques, of melodic turns of phrase, harmonizations, instrumentations.

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These are the ones I posted in the other thread

Another one I recently stumbled upon: this gorgeous song by Camille Saint-Saens sounds very similar to JW's "When You're Alone" from Hook. At 1:28:



Also this one from War Horse, which I think can be considered more of an homage to Vaughn Williams than a theft (like how composers have been referencing folk music for centuries). At 0:12

I'll start with a few I remember right now!

0:00 of Shostakovich's 5th symphony movement 1--->"Gillian's Powers" from The Fury

0:00 of this video of Dvorak's Dumky Trio---->Flying Theme from E.T.

0:00 of Copland's A Lincoln Portrait---->war motif in SPR, War Horse and Lincoln

0:13 - 0:40 of Copland's Appalachian Spring-->The People's House from Lincoln

0:11 of Mancini's "Sweetheart Tree"--->With Malice Towards None

4:17 and 6:33 of Holst's Mars: Bringer of War-->The Death Star and Main Title (respectively) from SW

0:00 of "The Charge" from War Horse (the play)--->"Charge and Capture" from War Horse (the movie)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFupJ8JqAw

0:00 of "Death of Falstaff" ---> "My Friend the Brachiosaurus"

0:18 of Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow"---> Luke and Leia's Theme

0:00 of Tchaikovsky's Trepak--->"Making hte Plane' from Home Alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ISRMSIyX8



0:11 of Tchaikovsky's "Dance of Sugar Plum Fairy" --> Main Titles from Home Alone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwqCdJqzlFU

14:12 of Strauss' Death and Transfiguration----> Love Theme from Superman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSLw2UWdB8

3:39 of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring--->"Death Star" from SW (and other places)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFRwKQqbk4

0:00 of Delerue's Agnes of God Theme ---->Face of Pan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu9Y0yQF7hM

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Anybody know what particular piece by Mozart Bernstein is playing at 27:45? It reminds me of Munich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eZYYBqIo4

Such an amazing forum, every once in a while you get a mindblowing post/link like this! How cool is that documentary, fantastic is an understatement.

Thank you indy4!! :worship:

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Actually, since El Dorado was written in 1998, it only qualifies of the KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL cue. Who would you say are the influences for the percussive CE3K music? The first half of the cues a bit like British serial composers Humphrey Searle and Elizabeth Lutyens.

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Anybody know what particular piece by Mozart Bernstein is playing at 27:45? It reminds me of Munich.

Are you thinking of the national anthem of Israel- Hatikvah (The Hope)?

Wow, I had no idea that was the Israeli national anthem! Always thought it was an original JW tune. I wonder if it bears any connection to the Mozart piece?

Anybody know what particular piece by Mozart Bernstein is playing at 27:45? It reminds me of Munich.

Such an amazing forum, every once in a while you get a mindblowing post/link like this! How cool is that documentary, fantastic is an understatement.

Thank you indy4!! :worship:

No prob, SF1_freeze! You should check out Bernstein's other videos on YouTube, he did a ton of musical education stuff.

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I remember seeing that a couple of months ago, I think there's some intentional idea behind it, like Williams was trying to say something.

Indeed, it may be significant that the seeming reference is to the word "Universal" and the image of a planet for a march depicting Superman.

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