Modeling vs. Sampling

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I know there was some talk a while back, mostly between Alex and I, about that Pianoteq modeled piano, and about sampling vs. modeling in general, so I thought I'd share a revelation that I've had over the past 24 hours, which is that modeling is actually exactly what I've been looking for all this time, and I was too dumb to see it. Sampled instruments no longer cut it for me. But check out this software. Incredible sound, and control over every important parameter of that sound and its placement. You can build ensembles of the same instrument type without worrying about phasing. Fantastic. They don't have string/percussion libraries, but that isn't really a big deal since the true weakness of sampling is brass/winds. Wouldn't mind complete control over the number of string players and the ability to mock-up dense aleatory, though....

Has anyone used this?

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

My non-controversial threads are embarrassing.

[AC1 3,565]

It's your own fault. You should have posted it in 'The Amazing Electronic Music' thread.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

I considered it, and worried it wouldn't fit... idiot!

[AC1 3,565]

Sampling, modeling, synths, theremins, electronic pianos, drum computers ... You name it, we got it! It's a great place to be with many knowledgeable subscribers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

JWFan should be renamed to JWSample!

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Sampling, modeling, synths, theremins, electronic pianos, drum computers ... You name it, we got it! It's a great place to be with many knowledgeable subscribers.

Very well, perhaps one of our esteemed moderators will perform their merge-magic.

[Jay 27,216]

My non-controversial threads are embarrassing.

Well, 9 hours isn't exactly a lot of time to pass on an international message board where everyone is in different time zones, etc.

Very well, perhaps one of our esteemed moderators will perform their merge-magic.

I can merge them no problem, is that what you definitely want?

[karelm 2,355]

I haven't used it but does seem pretty good. The winds sound better than the brass - trumpet and trombone are a bit weak and I would be suspicious they can get the sympathetic vibrations and overtones of a brass instrument since acoustically sampled instruments don't do that so well either. On the Mozart example, something like Berlin Woodwinds would allow much better phrasing control that what you seem able to get with this however this is cheaper by a few hundred bucks and gives interesting control of sound direction. I'm not that impressed with being able to move the source of the sound in a 3D space since that is just reverb modeling and has been around for years. I have heard the trumpet in a demo and it was good however I can't help but feel there is a soullessness. But I am probably not the ideal target audience for this since I am a symphonic brass player hence very picky. I assume if blended with other libraries and maybe even one live player this will do the job very nicely.

I do like their NotePerformer product very much so I assume their other products are high quality/good value.

This is the one I like for woodwinds - they take an opposite approach, sampling different players on each chair. For example: flute 1, 2, and 3 are three different players so slightly different sound and instrument. Take a listen to their demos:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/page2/index.php

It is pricey but very high quality and overkill for most purposes.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

My non-controversial threads are embarrassing.

Well, 9 hours isn't exactly a lot of time to pass on an international message board where everyone is in different time zones, etc.

Very well, perhaps one of our esteemed moderators will perform their merge-magic.

I can merge them no problem, is that what you definitely want?

Good point. Meh, might as well leave it be.

I haven't used it but does seem pretty good. The winds sound better than the brass - trumpet and trombone are a bit weak and I would be suspicious they can get the sympathetic vibrations and overtones of a brass instrument since acoustically sampled instruments don't do that so well either. On the Mozart example, something like Berlin Woodwinds would allow much better phrasing control that what you seem able to get with this however this is cheaper by a few hundred bucks and gives interesting control of sound direction. I'm not that impressed with being able to move the source of the sound in a 3D space since that is just reverb modeling and has been around for years. I have heard the trumpet in a demo and it was good however I can't help but feel there is a soullessness. But I am probably not the ideal target audience for this since I am a symphonic brass player hence very picky. I assume if blended with other libraries and maybe even one live player this will do the job very nicely.

I do like their NotePerformer product very much so I assume their other products are high quality/good value.

This is the one I like for woodwinds - they take an opposite approach, sampling different players on each chair. For example: flute 1, 2, and 3 are three different players so slightly different sound and instrument. Take a listen to their demos:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/page2/index.php

It is pricey but very high quality and overkill for most purposes.

Good stuff. The brass are better than they sound here; I've been playing with the demo. The whole appeal of this for me is how each instrument is just that: an instrument. You play it, and it adapts to how you play. Simple. No need for a dozen different articulations loaded up for the same instrument. And being able to actually build sections, without any size limitations (hey, I can't help it if I need six flutes!). The hall positioning thing is a con for me if it can't be bypassed. Since I'd be using different plugins for the other instrument types, I'd like to have them all totally dry and use my usual external positioning program so they're all in the same "room".

Still mulling whether or not I want this, but I am in the modeling camp now over samples. I just will not spend the kind of money necessary for "good" but more accurately "passable with immense effort and time" samples.

What is modelling?

So you're familiar with sampling, which essentially takes recordings of real instruments and creates virtual instruments out of them. Good for very static realism, bad for musicality. Modeling is entirely synthetic, using a synth to, well, model the waveform of real instruments. Slightly less realistic (but maybe not!) but much more dynamic.

[Gnome in Plaid 213]

That's pretty impressive. What's the learning curve like (i.e. is it pretty intuitive even if you're more accustomed to real instruments, or do you have to devote a lot of time just to learning the software)?

Another modeller I've heard is pretty good is Synful Orchestra, although I was never quite able to get the same results you hear in demos of it.

[Roll the Bones 2,967]

Why don't you just get a real orchestra?

[Naïve Old Fart 6,637]

My non-controversial threads are embarrassing.

Well, 9 hours isn't exactly a lot of time to pass on an international message board where everyone is in different time zones, etc.

Very well, perhaps one of our esteemed moderators will perform their merge-magic.

I can merge them no problem, is that what you definitely want?

Good point. Meh, might as well leave it be.

I haven't used it but does seem pretty good. The winds sound better than the brass - trumpet and trombone are a bit weak and I would be suspicious they can get the sympathetic vibrations and overtones of a brass instrument since acoustically sampled instruments don't do that so well either. On the Mozart example, something like Berlin Woodwinds would allow much better phrasing control that what you seem able to get with this however this is cheaper by a few hundred bucks and gives interesting control of sound direction. I'm not that impressed with being able to move the source of the sound in a 3D space since that is just reverb modeling and has been around for years. I have heard the trumpet in a demo and it was good however I can't help but feel there is a soullessness. But I am probably not the ideal target audience for this since I am a symphonic brass player hence very picky. I assume if blended with other libraries and maybe even one live player this will do the job very nicely.

I do like their NotePerformer product very much so I assume their other products are high quality/good value.

This is the one I like for woodwinds - they take an opposite approach, sampling different players on each chair. For example: flute 1, 2, and 3 are three different players so slightly different sound and instrument. Take a listen to their demos:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/page2/index.php

It is pricey but very high quality and overkill for most purposes.

Good stuff. The brass are better than they sound here; I've been playing with the demo. The whole appeal of this for me is how each instrument is just that: an instrument. You play it, and it adapts to how you play. Simple. No need for a dozen different articulations loaded up for the same instrument. And being able to actually build sections, without any size limitations (hey, I can't help it if I need six flutes!). The hall positioning thing is a con for me if it can't be bypassed. Since I'd be using different plugins for the other instrument types, I'd like to have them all totally dry and use my usual external positioning program so they're all in the same "room".

Still mulling whether or not I want this, but I am in the modeling camp now over samples. I just will not spend the kind of money necessary for "good" but more accurately "passable with immense effort and time" samples.

What is modelling?

So you're familiar with sampling, which essentially takes recordings of real instruments and creates virtual instruments out of them. Good for very static realism, bad for musicality. Modeling is entirely synthetic, using a synth to, well, model the waveform of real instruments. Slightly less realistic (but maybe not!) but much more dynamic.

So...would a melotron be an example of modelling?

P.s. your "2001" avatar: is it 2.20:1, 2.35:1, or 2.65:1?

[Gnome in Plaid 213]

Why don't you just get a real orchestra?

If I'm ever fortunate enough to score something with a big enough budget that it's possible to hire an orchestra, I would. If the budget is there, there's no justification not to use real musicians, but on the low rungs of the ladder, samples and synths can come in handy.

[Dixon Hill 4,229]

Richard, a Mellotron is an early form of sampling, as it is playing back recordings of real instruments. With modeling everything is totally synthesized.

And my avatar is whatever I had to shrink it to to fit.

The learning curve with these instruments seems not steep at all. If you know how to play the MIDI orchestra (keyboard, mod wheels, breath controls etc.) and you have a good internal sense of musicality and how brass/wind players breathe and shape their tone, the results are pretty astonishing to me. Far better than samples could ever hope to be.

I'm going to probably post some early attempts in the near future.