Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Also Doug - last December someone asked you if the music for the BOTFA: EE had already been scored, to which you responded:

"Yes. Some *amazing* stuff still to come … especially in the final act."

Now that the EE has been seen, I was just wondering if you might tell us what you were referring to here, since it seems as though you were alluding to more than just the (apparently quite brief) funeral composition.

[Doug Adams 494]

BTW Doug I have a question, was the bit of Thorin's theme at the end of the Special Edition version of Moon Runes intended for that spot? or was it an additional opening that was replaced with a new opening so the cue could be started later in the footage?

And is the standard version of Old Friends with the Fireworks music an alternate for Bilbo talking about them?

Yes, the Thorin quote at the end of "Moon Runes" was intended for that spot.

Also Doug - last December someone asked you if the music for the BOTFA: EE had already been scored, to which you responded:

"Yes. Some *amazing* stuff still to come … especially in the final act."

Now that the EE has been seen, I was just wondering if you might tell us what you were referring to here, since it seems as though you were alluding to more than just the (apparently quite brief) funeral composition.

The funeral piece is longer than what appears in the film. A gorgeous summation of nearly all the principal Dwarf material. That's the main attraction--but there's also some great material for the chariot, the "whirly-gigs," etc. Some made the album, but not all.

[Bilbo 3,709]

BTW Doug I have a question, was the bit of Thorin's theme at the end of the Special Edition version of Moon Runes intended for that spot? or was it an additional opening that was replaced with a new opening so the cue could be started later in the footage?

And is the standard version of Old Friends with the Fireworks music an alternate for Bilbo talking about them?

Yes, the Thorin quote at the end of "Moon Runes" was intended for that spot.

Also Doug - last December someone asked you if the music for the BOTFA: EE had already been scored, to which you responded:

"Yes. Some *amazing* stuff still to come … especially in the final act."

Now that the EE has been seen, I was just wondering if you might tell us what you were referring to here, since it seems as though you were alluding to more than just the (apparently quite brief) funeral composition.

The funeral piece is longer than what appears in the film. A gorgeous summation of nearly all the principal Dwarf material. That's the main attraction--but there's also some great material for the chariot, the "whirly-gigs," etc. Some made the album, but not all.

Is there any chance of us hearing the full funeral cue any time soon?

[Doug Adams 494]

BTW Doug I have a question, was the bit of Thorin's theme at the end of the Special Edition version of Moon Runes intended for that spot? or was it an additional opening that was replaced with a new opening so the cue could be started later in the footage?

And is the standard version of Old Friends with the Fireworks music an alternate for Bilbo talking about them?

Yes, the Thorin quote at the end of "Moon Runes" was intended for that spot.

Also Doug - last December someone asked you if the music for the BOTFA: EE had already been scored, to which you responded:

"Yes. Some *amazing* stuff still to come … especially in the final act."

Now that the EE has been seen, I was just wondering if you might tell us what you were referring to here, since it seems as though you were alluding to more than just the (apparently quite brief) funeral composition.

The funeral piece is longer than what appears in the film. A gorgeous summation of nearly all the principal Dwarf material. That's the main attraction--but there's also some great material for the chariot, the "whirly-gigs," etc. Some made the album, but not all.

Is there any chance of us hearing the full funeral cue any time soon?

Nothing currently in the works, but there is always hope.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Also Doug - last December someone asked you if the music for the BOTFA: EE had already been scored, to which you responded:

"Yes. Some *amazing* stuff still to come … especially in the final act."

Now that the EE has been seen, I was just wondering if you might tell us what you were referring to here, since it seems as though you were alluding to more than just the (apparently quite brief) funeral composition.

The funeral piece is longer than what appears in the film. A gorgeous summation of nearly all the principal Dwarf material. That's the main attraction--but there's also some great material for the chariot, the "whirly-gigs," etc. Some made the album, but not all.

This excites and troubles me at the same time. It would be a travesty if we didn't get to hear all this stuff someday. Thank you Doug and best of luck in your continued efforts to facilitate this. It goes without saying that they are greatly appreciated.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Yeah, thanks Doug for putting up with our millions of questions both on here and on twitter.

[Doug Adams 494]

Cheers, guys.

The thing to remember about all of this is that, as a story, The Hobbit is not going out of style. It's been relevant for decades, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. There will probably always be interest in this music and in this composer. It's not like we have a tiny window in which the scores need to be released before they're lost to the ages. I know we're all impatient when it comes to our favorite stuff, but hang in there ... we're playing the long game on this one.

In the meantime, I'll continue to push ...

[Incanus 5,714]

Thank you as always for your posts of insight Doug! Greatly appreciated!

And we as film music fans should know something about patience. E.g. it took "only" 14 years since its original soundtrack release to get the A.I. Artificial Intelligence complete score released.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Thank you as always for your posts of insight Doug! Greatly appreciated!

And we as film music fans should know something about patience. E.g. it took "only" 14 years since its original soundtrack release to get the A.I. Artificial Intelligence complete score released.

In 14 years I'll be 38. I hope it doesn't take that long. I already feel old.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Doug Adams 494]

Thank you as always for your posts of insight Doug! Greatly appreciated!

And we as film music fans should know something about patience. E.g. it took "only" 14 years since its original soundtrack release to get the A.I. Artificial Intelligence complete score released.

In 14 years I'll be 38. I hope it doesn't take that long. I already feel old.

Life begins at 40!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Thank you as always for your posts of insight Doug! Greatly appreciated!

And we as film music fans should know something about patience. E.g. it took "only" 14 years since its original soundtrack release to get the A.I. Artificial Intelligence complete score released.

In 14 years I'll be 38. I hope it doesn't take that long. I already feel old.

Life begins at 40!

Hobbit CRs to be released in 2031.

Confirmed.

[Jay 37,346]

If there were to be a book, I imagine it would only deal with the score as Shore originally intended it. If there were to be a book.

Sure, but... What he originally wrote in his first sketch? The first orchestrated sheets? The first recording, with podium changes?

For example, in DOS, for the scene where Thorin is pleading to The Master, there's a scene where Bilbo steps forward and stands up for him. Shore scored it with The Shire Theme. The scene ended up being removed from the Theatrical Cut, so that Shire Theme bit was never recorded. But then PJ decided to put the scene back into the Extended Edition. Sadly, that Shire theme variation wasn't recorded for the EE (since there was so separate EE recordings).

So anyway, would a hypothetical book even mention that Shore intended that scene - which we all see every time we watch the EE, the theoretical "definitive" version of the film - to be scored by The Shire Theme? Or gloss over it because it was never recorded?

Early sketches were sometimes written to rough footage, or even away from picture. Podium changes were often made to accommodate last-minute changes. Early orchestrated version are almost invariably the best to look at. These show Shore's initial intentions and colors as they relate to the final scene's structure, but before filmmaker revisions.

In the scene you're mentioning, Shore largely approached it from the EE edit. The Shire snippet was only ever a part of the early sketch--it was not a part of the orchestrated composition. That means Shore decided to remove the theme before the sessions were held. Returning that theme to the scene was a filmmaker decision, not a composer decision, so it wouldn't be discussed.

And you know ... if I ever really got in a jam, I could always just text Howard and ask him. That helps too.

The theme wasn't returned to the scene ; it plays with no score in the EE. The bit was never recorded.

[Doug Adams 494]

If there were to be a book, I imagine it would only deal with the score as Shore originally intended it. If there were to be a book.

Sure, but... What he originally wrote in his first sketch? The first orchestrated sheets? The first recording, with podium changes?

For example, in DOS, for the scene where Thorin is pleading to The Master, there's a scene where Bilbo steps forward and stands up for him. Shore scored it with The Shire Theme. The scene ended up being removed from the Theatrical Cut, so that Shire Theme bit was never recorded. But then PJ decided to put the scene back into the Extended Edition. Sadly, that Shire theme variation wasn't recorded for the EE (since there was so separate EE recordings).

So anyway, would a hypothetical book even mention that Shore intended that scene - which we all see every time we watch the EE, the theoretical "definitive" version of the film - to be scored by The Shire Theme? Or gloss over it because it was never recorded?

Early sketches were sometimes written to rough footage, or even away from picture. Podium changes were often made to accommodate last-minute changes. Early orchestrated version are almost invariably the best to look at. These show Shore's initial intentions and colors as they relate to the final scene's structure, but before filmmaker revisions.

In the scene you're mentioning, Shore largely approached it from the EE edit. The Shire snippet was only ever a part of the early sketch--it was not a part of the orchestrated composition. That means Shore decided to remove the theme before the sessions were held. Returning that theme to the scene was a filmmaker decision, not a composer decision, so it wouldn't be discussed.

And you know ... if I ever really got in a jam, I could always just text Howard and ask him. That helps too.

The theme wasn't returned to the scene ; it plays with no score in the EE. The bit was never recorded.

Sorry, speaking of filmmaker decisions in general, not pertaining to this scene.

And yes, as I said, it was never orchestrated, never taken to the stage, and never recored.

[Jay 37,346]

Well the philosophy makes sense of course. Can't wait to read it

[gkgyver 1,645]

Can't wait to get Shore's cell phone number.

Can you imagine hundreds of disgruntled fans texting him pics of Hobbit EEs burning on a pyre?

[Bilbo 3,709]

We could all let him now how much we want those CRs!

[Wojo 2,453]

There's know way I need them.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

I have been following this thread since we all took interest in what would probably be the final score for Middle-Earth in our lifetimes and I am increasingly hopeful for Complete Recordings of these Hobbit scores. They share the complexity of the LOTR ones yet without as many themes and the change to NZ for recording hampered Shore's chance to really make the scores shine in the movie. I think Shore works best composing, orchestrating, and conducting. Most of his scores have been in that way.

You can really tell a difference between AUJ's soundtrack to DOS and BOFTA in that Shore's orchestrations are far greater than what Conrad Pope is capable of. I know Shore was involved greatly throughout the recording sessions yet it is a shame Jackson was not willing to trust in Shore's work to continue producing the scores for DOS and BOFTA in London. Anyhow, I have found these scores immense and fit profoundly into the Middle-Earth music saga.

[Jay 37,346]

it is a shame Jackson was not willing to trust in Shore's work to continue producing the scores for DOS and BOFTA in London.

So you're assuming it was 100% Peter Jackson's call, and not something perhaps Howard himself wanted?

[Incanus 5,714]

it is a shame Jackson was not willing to trust in Shore's work to continue producing the scores for DOS and BOFTA in London.

So you're assuming it was 100% Peter Jackson's call, and not something perhaps Howard himself wanted?

The post production circus was a draining experience to all, including Shore and since PJ was the one who needed to be in NZ (we know this from all the documentaries and how he divided his time between the departments during a single day in the post), I think it was a mutual decision to facilitate the process without Shore having to move to New Zealand for the period of 2 years.

And of course that doesn't change the fact that the music would have been different in the finished film if Shore had been present, especially because Shore would have had his hand in making those "on the podium" changes PJ often needed.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

PJ should have just replaced Shore with some New-Zealander composer on the last two films.

They could always replace him with a CG composer in the post.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

It just seems like Jackson was trying to go too big on these movies. I was disappointed at his attempt to outperform Lord of the Rings with the over-the-top CGI which completely ruined the experience of feeling like Middle-Earth was a part of our world. Lord of the Rings (with minimal CGI) felt natural and the location work was extensive making the films look more epic and grand. It gave us an appreciation for our world.

Anyhow, the music itself still takes my breath away. The post-production was messy. I wondered why Shore didn't agree to come down to NZ for a couple of months and do the recording sessions like in LOTR? Maybe his age, he could have written most of the score in his preferred recording studio and then come to conduct around August/September with the NZSO.

By the way, I really like AUJ's and DOS' album mixings, yet BOFTA's is atrocious. So dry, no depth, and I still listen to it wondering if I can hear choral work or not underneath the strangling compression. I had to listen real close when figuring out that Doug Adams was correct when he said there were Didgeridoos in "Bred for War".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lord Of The Rings did NOT have minimal CGI. All 3 of them are chock full with them.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The 3 movie format is the only format that can do justice to Tolkiens epic vision as set about in his less then 300 page childrens book!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not just the letters, but the spaces between the letters!

It's all so layered!

Realistically speaking they needed Nolan!

[Incanus 5,714]

Lord Of The Rings did NOT have minimal CGI. All 3 of them are chock full with them.

The amount of visual effects blew up gradually. The first film had about 1/3 of the effects RotK had which was understandable as the grander vision not possible to create through practical effects were in the latter part of the story. Which is not to say FotR didn't have many, it had about 700 or 800 CG shots if I remember correctly.

Not just the letters, but the spaces between the letters!

It's all so layered!

Realistically speaking they needed Nolan!

PJ already shot the Hobbit almost page-by-page.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To be fair, the length of the book is fairly unrelated to the question if a trilogy could be made from it. It's about the content.

I'm pretty sure you could easily get a trilogies worth of material from The Sil.

But The Hobbit, as good a book as it is, just doesn't support a format of that length. They built a castle on the foundations of a modest 1 bedroom apartment. No wonder it started to sink in the ground.

[Incanus 5,714]

To be fair, the length of the book is fairly unrelated to the question if a trilogy could be made from it. It's about the content.

I'm pretty sure you could easily get a trilogies worth of material from The Sil.

But The Hobbit, as good a book as it is, just doesn't support a format of that length. They built a castle on the foundations of a modest 1 bedroom apartment. No wonder it started to sink in the ground.

Yes. The failing is trying to make The Hobbit into something it is not. It is not the second somewhat moderately sized LotR and it should not be. But PJ and the team loaded the story with so much extraneous material it toppled beneath all that weight as much of that story is a weird mutation of Tolkien's original much better and concise ideas. Alas the script writers justify all the changes with "It is not cinematic enough as it is in the novel" without trying to figure out how to make it cinematic without severely derailing the story. I know film adaptation has to follow different rules than a novel because of the medium but I don't see why it should follow all the worn out cliches of the obligatory film script like the romantic relationship or trying to shoehorn in female characters to lure in a certain demographic.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And 6 films in and they still didn't shoot the scouring of the Shire!

[Incanus 5,714]

And 6 films in and they still didn't shoot the scouring of the Shire!

Yeah that is a travesty! The ending of RotK could have easily handled another 30 minute build-up and battle!

Think of the great score for that! Shire theme in battle mode! Hobbitry in Arms motif! The Freedom Song of the Shire sung by Placido Domingo!

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

Lord Of The Rings did NOT have minimal CGI. All 3 of them are chock full with them.

Sorry, I meant that it had "minimal" compared to The Hobbit. Not every scene was filmed in front of the fabled green screen like BOFTA and Star Wars Episode III. Also the CGI in LOTR looks far more realistic than those two movies provided.

[Incanus 5,714]

Lord Of The Rings did NOT have minimal CGI. All 3 of them are chock full with them.

Sorry, I meant that it had "minimal" compared to The Hobbit. Not every scene was filmed in front of the fabled green screen like BOFTA and Star Wars Episode III. Also the CGI in LOTR looks far more realistic than those two movies provided.

PJ even gleefully admits to the sheer necessity of the green screen in the DoS documentaries. It is funny how they threw it up even when Beorn's house had such magnificent backdrop of real mountains, but apparently in the wrong place for their purposes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not really. A lot of the CGI, especially in ROTK has not aged well. Especially for the trolls, and other creatures.

Even Gollum looks dodgy in some scenes.

[Incanus 5,714]

Not really. A lot of the CGI, especially in ROTK has not aged well. Especially for the trolls, and other creatures.

Even Gollum looks dodgy in some scenes.

Some of the effect have naturally not aged well (some were done under a lot of time pressure and never changed) but some are still mightly impressive. And the CG wedded with miniatures still looks as cool as ever! Alex Funke had it right!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't know who that is?

[Incanus 5,714]

I don't know who that is?

The Miniature (Big-ature) Man! The supervisor of the LotR miniature crew who talked foam in the mouth for the use of miniatures in the LotR documentaries! He was relegated to some FX supervisor in the Hobbit, testing the 3D cameras and developing the motion control rigs etc. Poor Alex.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

I believe looking back in a few years one will realize The Hobbit is ageing quicker than LOTR did. Fellowship of the Ring still looks amazing after 14 years!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It is actually interesting that the rise and fall of PJ's Middle Earth films sort of mirror the rise and fall of Numenor, in which they fell into dottage.

Discuss!

I believe looking back in a few years one will realize The Hobbit is ageing quicker than LOTR did. Fellowship of the Ring still looks amazing after 14 years!

FOTR will ages the least of the bunch. Mostly owing to the fact that all the films main characters are real rather then CGI, and with the exception of a few shots in the prologue, all the big battle scenes are live-action.

TTT has parts that look outstanding. Especially the Helms Deep battle. But also parts that didn't age well or never looked that great to begin with. (The Ent battle looks like a cartoon)

ROTK is the most problematic one. Yes, many shots look great, but unlike TTT the big battles are all in daylight, which exposes a lot.

There are many shots that looked fake in 2003 and even worse today.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

It is actually interesting that the rise and fall of PJ's Middle Earth films sort of mirror the rise and fall of Numenor, in which they fell into dottage.

Discuss!

I believe looking back in a few years one will realize The Hobbit is ageing quicker than LOTR did. Fellowship of the Ring still looks amazing after 14 years!

FOTR will ages the least of the bunch. Mostly owing to the fact that all the films main characters are real rather then CGI, and with the exception of a few shots in the prologue, all the big battle scenes are live-action.

TTT has parts that look outstanding. Especially the Helms Deep battle. But also parts that didn't age well or never looked that great to begin with. (The Ent battle looks like a cartoon)

ROTK is the most problematic one. Yes, many shots look great, but unlike TTT the big battles are all in daylight, which exposes a lot.

There are many shots that looked fake in 2003 and even worse today.

I definitely agree with you there. Now thinking about it ROTK has parts like the Pelennor Fields scene with Legolas that looks very fake. ROTK looks more like The Hobbit where Jackson started losing his way. I thought Helm's Deep was an outstanding bit of filming. As you were saying, I feel good about FOTR because they stuck with a fresh, clean look with significantly less CGI than the other films.

Have Shore's Hobbit scores been treated like Williams' Star Wars prequels? Fantastic reviews by the critics, not memorable with the people?

[Incanus 5,714]

It is actually interesting that the rise and fall of PJ's Middle Earth films sort of mirror the rise and fall of Numenor, in which they fell into dottage.

Discuss!

Who is the Sauron to lead PJ to the final damnation and assaulting the Undying Lands?

I took another listen to the BotFA score during the weekend and it is certainly one that sustains my interest from start to finish but alas falls victim to the much booed mixing in the action music department. I enjoy the culmination of the musical Smaug storyline, the Dol Guldur and the worn and ragged Lake-town/Bard development a lot. I would have wished for more martial music for the Woodland Realm during the action itself but since the elven army isn't afforded many moments to shine as Dain hogs (literally) much of the screen time from their heroics. For all the martial prowess of the elves, they accomplish strangely little against the orcs (are they the Stormtroopers of Middle-earth?). But I love the haunting laments their theme goes through in the middle portion of the battle. There is very much the TTT styled "tide is turning against our heroes" type of sad, weary and solemn writing as the dwarves, elves and men are on the run from Azog's troops. And of course the final redeeming glory of the dwarven music as Thorin rallies his troops is a magnificent turn of fortunes. The final two action pieces are somewhat choppy as far as thematic material goes but still fine in their execution, offering a lot of very kinetic underscore for the duels as well as emotional commentary to the events.

As I said before the last emotional farewell pieces leave us in a place where the story is ready to go on, not giving that one last final chord that would give full closure, that is actually reserved for Elanor in RotK some 10 hours of music later.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

It is actually interesting that the rise and fall of PJ's Middle Earth films sort of mirror the rise and fall of Numenor, in which they fell into dottage.

Discuss!

Who is the Sauron to lead PJ to the final damnation and assaulting the Undying Lands?

I took another listen to the BotFA score during the weekend and it is certainly one that sustains my interest from start to finish but alas falls victim to the much booed mixing in the action music department. I enjoy the culmination of the musical Smaug storyline, the Dol Guldur and the worn and ragged Lake-town/Bard development a lot. I would have wished for more martial music for the Woodland Realm during the action itself but since the elven army isn't afforded many moments to shine as Dain hogs (literally) much of the screen time from their heroics. For all the martial prowess of the elves, they accomplish strangely little against the orcs (are they the Stormtroopers of Middle-earth?). But I love the haunting laments their theme goes through in the middle portion of the battle. There is very much the TTT styled "tide is turning against our heroes" type of sad, weary and solemn writing as the dwarves, elves and men are on the run from Azog's troops. And of course the final redeeming glory of the dwarven music as Thorin rallies his troops is a magnificent turn of fortunes. The final two action pieces are somewhat choppy as far as thematic material goes but still fine in their execution, offering a lot of very kinetic underscore for the duels as well as emotional commentary to the events.

As I said before the last emotional farewell pieces leave us in a place where the story is ready to go on, not giving that one last final chord that would give full closure, that is actually reserved for Elanor in RotK some 10 hours of music later.

I also find the BOFTA score an enjoyable listen besides the mixing. The choral work is the best the Hobbit trilogy has to offer, the Gundabad and Dain themes are special pieces, and Shore brings the most bombastic battle cues in this score for this trilogy. "Courage and Wisdom" is pure Shore magic with the way he creates true emotion to fit the scene. Especially Thorin and Bilbo's scene. Too many tears! I just wished for more of Tauriel's action theme. Only seems to appear once in "Ravenhill".

[Incanus 5,714]

I also find the BOFTA score an enjoyable listen besides the mixing. The choral work is the best the Hobbit trilogy has to offer, the Gundabad and Dain themes are special pieces, and Shore brings the most bombastic battle cues in this score for this trilogy. "Courage and Wisdom" is pure Shore magic with the way he creates true emotion to fit the scene. Especially Thorin and Bilbo's scene. Too many tears! I just wished for more of Tauriel's action theme. Only seems to appear once in "Ravenhill".

But she is mostly sidelined from the action so the action versions of her theme are not used. It is Legolas time!

Plus they went for the emotional bittersweet tone for that scene where she is desperately trying to reach Kili and not getting there in time.

Courage and Wisdom has a beautiful The Passing of Theoden styled mood going on, the elegiac tone which is in great part responsible for my belief in Thorin's atonement at the end.

[Barnald 365]

I thought the didgeridoos were fairly apparent in Bred for War...