Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Faleel 5,340]

Everything on the CR was recorded.

Indeed.

How much music is actually missing from FOTR CR (in minutes)?

Over 2 minutes missing from Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe and A Conspiracy Unmasked alone.

That's not on the OST?

About 2 minutes

So, final calculations of how much music is not on the CR (including stuff on the Rarities but not on the CR) based off of what know exists:

9 minutes, 36 seconds

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

That is also not counting alternates, dropped instruments/choir, looped music, or Theatrical versions.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It's all Doug's fault! He's holding us back!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,340]

That is also not counting alternates, dropped instruments/choir, looped music, or Theatrical versions.

??

So there is 9 minutes and 5 seconds of material from FOTR that is not on the OSTs, not on the Complete Recordings but some of which is in the Rarities?

Take out the OST stuff and you have about 6 minutes and 36 seconds of material not on the CR (not counting Theatrical Versions, alternates, dropped instruments/choir.)

And that is what we know of, there is some material still missing (A Conspiracy Unmasked, parts of the alternate Shortcut to Mushrooms, and their could possibly be more stuff we have not heard.

There are 8 minutes, 10 seconds of music from the Theatrical versions of cues not on the CR. (7 minutes, 41 seconds if you don't count the OST material)

There are 25 minutes, 28 seconds of alternates not on the CR for obvious reasons (19 minutes, 10 seconds not counting OST material)

There are 2 minutes, 26 seconds of dropped instruments and choir. (50 seconds not counting OST material)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

That is also not counting alternates, dropped instruments/choir, looped music, or Theatrical versions.

How would looped music and dropped instruments/choir affect the total time of missing music?

Me counting them

I'm not talking about doing a CR with dozens of alternates, you're completely exaggerating. Pieces that appear in the film, with no edits to the recording.

So basically, the FOTR CR is an awful release because it's missing about 10 minutes of music.

And because the missing music is replaced by tracked music.

[Jay 37,322]

Yes. The FOTR CR is not a bad release - far from it! It's just not perfect, and not up to the same standard later set by TTT and ROTK. That's all.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

But the benchmark wasn't set by TTT and RotK. It was set by FotR, since that release came first. They then upped their game for the last two.

I can see how it's frustrating to not have the complete pieces in their correct place, yes. And I can see how it's even more frustrating to have music that shouldn't be there in its place. But to call it 'atrocious' is going a bit far, I think. It has great liner notes, wonderful packaging and a six-channel mix on DVD included. Yes, there were some mistakes made that I'm sure we'd like to see corrected in a future release someday, but on the whole I think this is a wonderful product to have.

[Jay 37,322]

Agreed.

[Kühni 485]

.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

That is also not counting alternates, dropped instruments/choir, looped music, or Theatrical versions.

How would looped music and dropped instruments/choir affect the total time of missing music? And alternates are not part of the equation, as gkgyver himself said:

I'm not talking about doing a CR with dozens of alternates, you're completely exaggerating. Pieces that appear in the film, with no edits to the recording.

So basically, the FOTR CR is an awful release because it's missing about 10 minutes of music.

Don't get so defensive, nowhere did I say it's awful. But please don't pretend you know the full length cues and compositions. Those 10 minutes are most likely not everything, given that we know how much was recorded. And even those 10 minutes are not excusable if you advertise something as complete.

[Incanus 5,713]

I would have preferred they would have given us the complete scores and bonus discs worth of alternates and possible film versions (edits and such). Everybody would have been happy.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

The intact edits are awful, not the set itself. Please learn to read context.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

But the benchmark wasn't set by TTT and RotK. It was set by FotR, since that release came first.

I don't think you know what benchmark means, it has nothing to do with what came first.

Do you think the FotR recordings were lost, or in a different part of the world than TTT or RotK? This isn't Moonraker for lord's sake.

If it was possible for the latter two, it was possible for Fellowship as well. Somewhere along the line of this production, someone looked at the full recordings, then looked at the EE film edit, and decided Nah, the shortened, edited and tracked versions are better. There's no two ways around it, someone made that decision, and whoever that was has lost his freaking mind.

[Incanus 5,713]

The intact edits are awful, not the set itself. Please learn to read context.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

But the benchmark wasn't set by TTT and RotK. It was set by FotR, since that release came first.

I don't think you know what benchmark means, it has nothing to do with what came first.

Do you think the FotR recordings were lost, or in a different part of the world than TTT or RotK? This isn't Moonraker for lord's sake.

If it was possible for the latter two, it was possible for Fellowship as well. Somewhere along the line of this production, someone looked at the full recordings, then looked at the EE film edit, and decided Nah, the shortened, edited and tracked versions are better. There's no two ways around it, someone made that decision, and whoever that was has lost his freaking mind.

I'll gently direct you to look at the composer.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

And Conrad Pope.

Let's not drag poor Conrad into this! He is not up to the challenge!

[Barnald 365]

I think we should drag Sir Conrad into everything, whenever possible

[gkgyver 1,645]

The intact edits are awful, not the set itself. Please learn to read context.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

But the benchmark wasn't set by TTT and RotK. It was set by FotR, since that release came first.

I don't think you know what benchmark means, it has nothing to do with what came first.

Do you think the FotR recordings were lost, or in a different part of the world than TTT or RotK? This isn't Moonraker for lord's sake.

If it was possible for the latter two, it was possible for Fellowship as well. Somewhere along the line of this production, someone looked at the full recordings, then looked at the EE film edit, and decided Nah, the shortened, edited and tracked versions are better. There's no two ways around it, someone made that decision, and whoever that was has lost his freaking mind.

I'll gently direct you to look at the composer.

I am.

Having watched the EE, I think Shore simply refused to score some of that bloomy clusterfuck of a film.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

https://www.facebook.com/conrad.pope/posts/10207432029271866"data-width="500">

cite="https://www.facebook.com/conrad.pope/posts/10207432029271866">

A friend suggested I look at this. This is a GREAT video of iconic composer Howard Shore talking about his process,...

Posted by

href="https://www.facebook.com/conrad.pope">Conrad

Pope on 

href="https://www.facebook.com/conrad.pope/posts/10207432029271866">Tuesday,

December 8, 2015

 

 

Mr Pope actually expressed gratitude to Howard Shore's genius composing!

[Incanus 5,713]

Conrad is a class act despite the running gag of blaming him for everything that is so pervasive here.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

More PJ blame is needed!

[Incanus 5,713]

So feel all who live to see such Tolkien adaptations as The Hobbit.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,322]

Can you explain what you mean better?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

I refuse to let this forum die. A couple of posts on Doug's blog (remember that?) are worth quoting:

 

Quote

Not *really* the Wraith theme here (at 01:58 of 'The Clouds Burst'), just a similar gesture.

Shore's own version of the score includes no quotes of Wraith material. All explained soon!

 

Quote

The Leia thing has vexed listeners for years. The Wraith theme will do the same ... although, since it was not Shore's original intention, we are not considering it part of the composer's canonical version of the score. (Same with the Gondor bit at the end of AUJ.) There are actually a few other changes to these scores that people never realized. Many of these, we will be talking about in the very near future. A few--such as a recap of the Elvish Healing theme for a cut scene that featured Tauriel reviving Bard's drowned daughter--fall into the non-canonical cracks, but others will be discussed in great detail.

Of course by that time, everyone will be bellyaching that the overreaching fan interpretations of Rey's theme were all off-base, and the Star Wars/LOTR fan pendulum will swing again.

... But hey, I love the fact that we're at least having these conversations now. Film music fandom is changing. People are listening with purpose. Jerry Goldsmith's much-derided "bottle cap collectors" are still there, but their numbers are diminishing. And I don't think it's any coincidence that as those obsessed with serial codes and cover art errors move out of the spotlight, film music--true film music, not just suites and themes--is beginning to get a foothold in symphony halls.

 

Thank Christ that Tauriel bit was cut, but it raises an interesting question. If that is non-canonical, does that mean it wasn't Shore's intention for the theme to be heard in 'Kingsfoil' either? Or does 'recap' simply refer to tracked material?

 

Doug is dropping a lot of strong hints now that we should hear something soon. I guess the book isn't far away. But in all honesty, with all these references to Shore's original intentions and talking about them in detail, I truly hope we get to hear whatever we don't have at some point. Even then, I would also want certain 'non-canonical' film alternates.

[Jay 37,322]

Just announce the book already!

 

And yes I hope we get all the music, Shore's version and film compromises

[Incanus 5,713]

I am sure a lot of the composer's original intentions and aborted versions will be made clearer in the book. These films seem to have gone through so many iterations and have such amount of initially devised but abandoned material there could be still a legion of these "along the way" pieces and intentions left in there and many we have not heard of.

 

I really hope Doug gets to discuss these intermediate things in greater detail than he did with LotR (where the PDF Annotated score handled that to some degree).

[Barnald 365]

Well he does say 'great detail', so we can have him for false advertising if not.

[Incanus 5,713]

17 hours ago, Barnald said:

Well he does say 'great detail', so we can have him for false advertising if not.

Doug should know what happens to people who use false advertising on film music fanatics. He will be eaten alive on the internet messageboard but that's about it.

[Barnald 365]

1 hour ago, Incanus said:

Doug should know what happens to people who use false advertising on film music fanatics. He will be eaten alive on the internet messageboard but that's about it.

 

There are few worse fates

[Incanus 5,713]

6 minutes ago, Barnald said:

 

There are few worse fates

It is admittedly a scathing punishment. You remain alive but under heavy bombardment of acerbic and often OCD rants.

[Doug Adams 494]

In that case, be forewarned: such future discussions would primarily cover the composer’s canonical version of the music. (In this case, generally determined to be the first fully orchestrated version.) Filmmaker revisions, unrealized concepts, etc. would not be discussed. As with Rings, focus would be on the musical content, not on behind-the-scenes politics. More than enough to discuss above-the-board, I promise you!

… But then, that’s why there’s Twitter, blogs, etc.

D

[Jay 37,322]

If only we had a way to listen to all of the composer's canonical versions this future product would be discussing....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So like with the LOTR book this new one will ignore the effects of the film making process, the influence of the director etc on how the score turns out?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

I just meant a CR type release for each score.

[Incanus 5,713]

Just now, Jay said:

I just meant a CR type release for each score.

Quite.

 

 

[Barnald 365]

Part of me thinks Doug knows it would be cruel (and perhaps not entirely beneficial to our full comprehension/appreciation of his undoubtedly wonderful book) if we hadn't heard all of what he will be discussing, so surely something is planned.

 

Certainly this book will be very interesting in terms of laying bare the full extent of the revisions. Perhaps they're even worse/more substantial than we thought...

[Doug Adams 494]

Right now, I don't have an official say in future CD releases. Such things would need to be initiated by Shore's office, and then cleared by WB before I'd be involved. So while I can make suggestions and do a bit of pestering (which I do), right now I'm as much a slave to the process as anyone else.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are a slave to no one man!

[Barnald 365]

Except all of us on here!

 

In all seriousness Doug, I'm sure you're doing all you can (and then some), and it goes without saying that we very much appreciate your efforts. Looks like it's onto Shore's office with pitchforks and torches then.

[Jay 37,322]

I hope Shore and WB decide that releasing more music to consumers will be a profitable endeavor!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Bofur01 245]

The same wiki page also lists this, as well as "Tauriel and Kili"

• "Kili's Theme: A short theme that is played on a trumpet. It appears at the beginning of "Feast of Starlight." In The Battle of the Five Armies soundtrack, it is played at the beginning of "Shores of the Long Lake" and is played near the end of "Ravenhill.""

So maybe take anything from there with a pinch of salt, unless I've missed a lot...