What makes a great Williams score for you?

[publicist 4,643]

Well Pub, I don't try to pass off anything as anything it's not, but I wouldn't presume to tell you what you know about how I think. You're obviously a master of internet psychology.

I neither singled you out nor do i care what YOU specifically wrote about A. I. but of course it must have been about YOU all along.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Sharky seemed to think so too, so I responded.

[publicist 4,643]

But here, I'll see if I can't offer some "sufficient explanation" for you. It is a "deep and meaningful" film for me - there's nothing to be "betrayed" as though I've ever tried to hide how I feel about it. It was integral to my understanding of what I wanted to do with my life (mostly through the score). It's part of the legacy of a director who I hold in the highest regard and offers an almost uniquely tender insight into his mind. And it's a story that I find compelling, despite some wooden performances and dodgy writing. It's a satisfying emotional journey for me. And I'm deeply sorry that you don't feel the same way, but please, enough of the insufferably pretentious bullshit where you just can't understand why someone likes something that you don't.

Oh, and describing things in vague supernatural terms is just how I roll.

Hah. QED.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Oh sorry, did you not want someone who feels differently to respond?

To quote you, "this is a DISCUSSION forum". So you made a contentious post, and someone who it applies to responded? QED indeed.

[publicist 4,643]

I do not want someone to melodramatically enlarge himself as saint martyr. And that's what you did - it of course is totally out of question that A. I. is indeed the kind of movie people love to adorn themselves with, telling it deep misunderstood masterpiece in every thread where it may come up.

So stop yammering because i express MY opinion on that.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Haha. Yes, fight on keyboard warrior, fight on.

[publicist 4,643]

Seeing the other recent topics, it seems a (sole) reasonable opportunity.

[crocodile 8,012]

My answer is going to be the lamest one ever.

No clue. I used to know. But the more I learn about music, film scoring, other composers, creative process and stuff like that, the less it's possible for me to articulate thoughts on it. Some scores he wrote I appreciate in a traditional, slightly clichéd "great theme, awesome setpieces" way, and there are others I like for something completely opposite. I guess there is a certain effortlessness and resourcefulness about his craft that always amazes me, no matter if I enjoy the work or not. And that aspect was always almost always beyond the abilities most of his colleagues (with few notable exceptions). Williams is not a god for me any more, I reckon sometimes he can do wrong. Not musically, but there are certain possible subjects he's not as good at tackling as some other composers. But damn if I'm not getting reminded of his status whenever revisiting even lesser works in his oeuvre - there are really few people who have a command over an orchestra that he has.

There, I didn't even answer the question.

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

And now declare yourself on A. I.

[crocodile 8,012]

Interesting but heavily flawed film. "Interesting" doesn't necessarily have to mean it was the most intellectually nourishing thing. But that's not really what you should expect from the director. My idea of it is that Spielberg religiously stayed close to what Kubrick came up with. But we need to remember Stanley would ponder on ideas for years, decades even. I reckon the version they went with was still not formed enough - it was work in progress. That, coupled with Spielberg's bit-too-literal direction and writing, creates a really confused whole. Still, it's his most memorable film in the past 20 years. There are some images in it that stayed with me. And that needs to count for something.

The best Williams score of the 00's. Not necessarily all of it, but the vast majority is brilliant. I do like The quasi-minimalistic wriiting, the Morricone bits and some other stuff. Again, it seems Williams (either conciously, or by slavishly following Spielberg's schizophrenic lead) paid tribute to Kubrick in his eclectic choices of musical styles. But it does serve the film quite well, for the most part. It's not an obvious Williams and that also needs to count for something.

Again, I didn't really answer clearly.

Karol

[Ludwig 1,120]

My answer is going to be the lamest one ever.

No clue. I used to know. But the more I learn about music, film scoring, other composers, creative process and stuff like that, the less it's possible for me to articulate thoughts on it. Some scores he wrote I appreciate in a traditional, slightly clichéd "great theme, awesome setpieces" way, and there are others I like for something completely opposite. I guess there is a certain effortlessness and resourcefulness about his craft that always amazes me, no matter if I enjoy the work or not. And that aspect was always almost always beyond the abilities most of his colleagues (with few notable exceptions). Williams is not a god for me any more, I reckon sometimes he can do wrong. Not musically, but there are certain possible subjects he's not as good at tackling as some other composers. But damn if I'm not getting reminded of his status whenever revisiting even lesser works in his oeuvre - there are really few people who have a command over an orchestra that he has.

There, I didn't even answer the question.

Karol

I think you've hit on something really fundamental to Williams as a composer. Of course, we all know how hard he works on his themes, writing and re-writing them until just the right notes are found. But I've always sensed that once he's found the themes, the score comes effortlessly, as you say.

Composing easily carries an unjustified stigma because many believe that music cannot possibly be profound if one didn't struggle to write it. Conversely, if music sounds rich and complex, one usually does not believe it could have been written easily. But in the case of Williams, I am constantly amazed that he consistently writes two minutes of music every day he's working on a film score, and still comes out with the results he does. That, to me, shows a clarity of musical vision and the accompanying wealth of knowledge needed to express it without much hesitation.

"Lamest answer ever"? Surely you jest.

[publicist 4,643]

Interesting but heavily flawed film. "Interesting" doesn't necessarily have to mean it was the most intellectually nourishing thing. But that's not really what you should expect from the director. My idea of it is that Spielberg religiously stayed close to what Kubrick came up with. But we need to remember Stanley would ponder on ideas for years, decades even. I reckon the version they went with was still not formed enough - it was work in progress. That, coupled with Spielberg's bit-too-literal direction and writing, creates a really confused whole. Still, it's his most memorable film in the past 20 years. There are some images in it that stayed with me. And that needs to count for something.

The best Williams score of the 00's. Not necessarily all of it, but the vast majority is brilliant. I do like The quasi-minimalistic wriiting, the Morricone bits and some other stuff. Again, it seems Williams (either conciously, or by slavishly following Spielberg's schizophrenic lead) paid tribute to Kubrick in his eclectic choices of musical styles. But it does serve the film quite well, for the most part. It's not an obvious Williams and that also needs to count for something.

Again, I didn't really answer clearly.

Karol

I would say the same just more harshly.

I grew fond of the incidental music of the first part which at first seemed too mousy but it is the dramaturgically most apt and developed music of the score. I could do without the rather trivial reworkings of GAYANEH, but the 'love theme' (sans words) is the 2000's more somber answer to the theme from E. T. - it remains the most idiosyncratic theme for a Spielberg film since then.

It is interesting how similar the approach is to EOTS's, due to the rather similar dramatic development (boy lives in sheltered environment with his parents, gets lost and finds new friends and foes and dissolves in more and more surreal and enigmatic developments till the ambigious end), right up to the lack of unity in both scores which surely was demanded by Spielberg in some way or other. Williams is too much of a Hollywood-shaped animal to suddenly morph into a piecemeal composer like Morricone who can get away with lots of stand-alone pieces that still work as one score but of course that doesn't take away from the great 80% of A. I.'s score.

[crocodile 8,012]

I think the Khachaturian nod might have been intentional.

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

It sure was but after 12 James Horner scores using that as default for mysterious affairs it just lost some of its luster.

[crocodile 8,012]

You must really hate most of his Jack Ryan.

Karol

[Balahkay 627]

What makes a Williams score great to me is if it gives me goosebumps and I say "Wow!" Very simply for me. :-)

[publicist 4,643]

You must really hate most of his Jack Ryan.

Karol

No, i just skip those parts. This belongs to ALIENS.

[Faleel 5,347]

A Flow. A Journey.

[Andy 4,126]

If there is an appearance of his "religious sound".

Which scores show this best for you? Got some examples?

[Thor 7,497]

If there is an appearance of his "religious sound".

Which scores show this best for you? Got some examples?

Sure:

"Main Titles" from SGT. RYKER (1968)

"The Miracle" from HEIDI (1968)

"Restoration" from JANE EYRE (1970)

"Blood Moon" from IMAGES (1972)

"Main Title" from THE FURY (1978)

"The Ark Theme" from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK (1981)

"Gloria" from MONSIGNOR (1982 - majestic variation)

"The Emperor's Theme" from RETURN OF THE JEDI (1983)

"Cadillac of the Skies" from EMPIRE OF THE SUN (1987)

"Only the Penitant Will Pass" from IJ & THE LAST CRUSADE (1989)

"Star of Bethlehem" from HOME ALONE (1990)

"You are the Pan" from HOOK (1991)

"Remembrances" from SCHINDLER'S LIST (1993)

"Journey to the Island" from JURASSIC PARK (1993 - majestic variation)

"Meeting With Mao" from NIXON (1995)

"Duel of the Fates" from STAR WARS: THE PHANTOM MENACE (1999 - majestic variation)

"Angela's Prayer" from ANGELA'S ASHES (1999)

"A Window to the Past" from HARRY POTTER 3 (2004)

"The Hope" from MUNICH (2005)

Bits and pieces from WAR HORSE (2011)

[Jay 37,355]

The Emperor's Theme sounds religious to you?

[Thor 7,497]

The Emperor's Theme sounds religious to you?

Yeah, something about the chromatic leaps in that one.

But the "Final Duel" track -- short as it is -- is even closer to the sound, so I should have added that.

[Arpy 4,145]

Surely the Father vs. Son fight in ROTJ is an example of his 'religious sound'. Not so sure about the Emperor's Theme other than it having an air of supernatural feeling about it.

That choral piece in The Death of Yoda is another example I can think of.

What makes a great John Williams Score for me is if it can pull at those emotional heartstrings at the right moments. It doesn't even have to offer an emotional response we might register as sadness or grief, but one which speaks for many emotions in a universal kind of way. I love moments of his scores such as in ET in 'The Beginning of a Friendship' which offers a moment of whimsy, wonder and a feeling of things coming together. I also like the music for Harry and Dumbledore's conversation in the Mirror of Erised scene wherein the music speaks far beyond what we are told. In many ways for me, it's indescribable to say why this makes it a good score for me, other than to relay what I personally find interesting.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since Thor basically coined the phrase "The Religious Sound"you can't really disagree with him as to what exactly it consists of.

He could claim Luthor's Luau has the religious sound, or Eminems Stan, and you would not really be able to disagree.

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't know how to feel about that, or what to think about it...

[Thor 7,497]

Surely the Father vs. Son fight in ROTJ is an example of his 'religious sound'. Not so sure about the Emperor's Theme other than it having an air of supernatural feeling about it.

Absolutely! As I mentioned earlier, the 'final duel' sequence qualifies. I forgot to list it.

As for 'The Emperor's Theme', it's mostly the last 5 notes that have a very psalm-like quality to me. I'm not a musician, so I can't be very technical, but it reminds me somewhat of solemn church music a la Palestrina, maybe even a tad of Gregorian.

Oh, and there's also an early cameo in the 'main titles' from NONE BUT THE BRAVE (0:40-1:00) -- which could also masquerade as an outtake from Miklos Rozsa's religious BEN HUR music!

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, his "religious sound", as Thor put it, is very notable - and more key than I'd really realised before. Those moments in John's music are always so beautifully enriching and even profoundly affecting to me, I can't deny that that particular artistic signature is one the most important reasons why I have consistently felt a deep emotional response to the man's music.

Thanks Thor.

[Thor 7,497]

No problem. Of course, one is free to call it other things -- like his 'spiritual sound' or just 'pastoral sound' or whatever.

I also just remembered "Look Down Lord" from ROSEWOOD. Duh!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Did Goldsmith ever do the Religious sound?

For me it would be in TMP, The Final Conflict

[Quintus 5,399]

Poltergeist has plenty of it. Probably the reason why it's my favourite Goldsmith.

[Thor 7,497]

So far, I haven't been able to find it in Goldsmith's music. Not the particular sound I have in mind, anyway. Sure, there's plenty of great and lyrical themes, but not quite what I -- personally -- associate with 'the religious sound'.

Now Delerue, on the other hand.....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good one!

[Quintus 5,399]

It's also interesting that when we say "his religious sound", we automatically attribute the style to the culturally embedded Western neo-romantic idea of what the religious sound is. I wonder if parts of Asia are affected in the same way by the music as we are, or is it its "spirituality" which makes the appeal truly universal? In which case is it even right to refer to it as "religious sound"?

[Thor 7,497]

It's a fair point.

For me, the similarity lies in the chord progressions and the harmonies which often have much in common with traditional western psalm melodies and structures.

It's basically the same thing that has influenced a lot of English pastoral music, like that of Ralph Vaughan Williams.

But is it a "correct" term in a global sense? Probably not. It's merely so embedded into my vocabulary by now (with all its personal associations) that it's hard to change the wording now.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Did Goldsmith ever do the Religious sound?

For me it would be in TMP, The Final Conflict

Those are his "chords of wonder". It appears on Star Trek V too.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, Jerry was always one for recycling passages, even when there was no franchise link.

[publicist 4,643]

"Main Title" from THE FURY (1978)

? That's a leap.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, Jerry was always one for recycling passages, even when there was no franchise link.

yeah, right!

[publicist 4,643]

Traces of this awe-and-wonder music can be found in LEGEND, FIRST KNIGHT, FIRST CONTACT, POLTERGEIST and EXPLORERS.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yep.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed

[publicist 4,643]

I am a certified post padding enabler.

[crocodile 8,012]

I am a trainee post padding enabler at your service.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Agreed.

[Bespin 8,480]

If I can whistle the theme or better, the themeS, then it's a great score.

[Thor 7,497]

"Main Title" from THE FURY (1978)

? That's a leap.

Agreed!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If there is an appearance of his "religious sound".

Which scores show this best for you? Got some examples?

Sure:

"Main Titles" from SGT. RYKER (1968)

"The Miracle" from HEIDI (1968)

"Restoration" from JANE EYRE (1970)

"Blood Moon" from IMAGES (1972)

"Main Title" from THE FURY (1978)

"The Ark Theme" from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK (1981)

"Gloria" from MONSIGNOR (1982 - majestic variation)

"The Emperor's Theme" from RETURN OF THE JEDI (1983)

"Cadillac of the Skies" from EMPIRE OF THE SUN (1987)

"Only the Penitant Will Pass" from IJ & THE LAST CRUSADE (1989)

"Star of Bethlehem" from HOME ALONE (1990)

"You are the Pan" from HOOK (1991)

"Remembrances" from SCHINDLER'S LIST (1993)

"Journey to the Island" from JURASSIC PARK (1993 - majestic variation)

"Meeting With Mao" from NIXON (1995)

"Duel of the Fates" from STAR WARS: THE PHANTOM MENACE (1999 - majestic variation)

"Angela's Prayer" from ANGELA'S ASHES (1999)

"A Window to the Past" from HARRY POTTER 3 (2004)

"The Hope" from MUNICH (2005)

Bits and pieces from WAR HORSE (2011)

What about 'The Forest' from E.T.?

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes! Yes! Yes!

YES!

[Ludwig 1,120]

If there is an appearance of his "religious sound".

Which scores show this best for you? Got some examples?

Sure:

"Main Titles" from SGT. RYKER (1968)

"The Miracle" from HEIDI (1968)

"Restoration" from JANE EYRE (1970)

"Blood Moon" from IMAGES (1972)

"Main Title" from THE FURY (1978)

"The Ark Theme" from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK (1981)

"Gloria" from MONSIGNOR (1982 - majestic variation)

"The Emperor's Theme" from RETURN OF THE JEDI (1983)

"Cadillac of the Skies" from EMPIRE OF THE SUN (1987)

"Only the Penitant Will Pass" from IJ & THE LAST CRUSADE (1989)

"Star of Bethlehem" from HOME ALONE (1990)

"You are the Pan" from HOOK (1991)

"Remembrances" from SCHINDLER'S LIST (1993)

"Journey to the Island" from JURASSIC PARK (1993 - majestic variation)

"Meeting With Mao" from NIXON (1995)

"Duel of the Fates" from STAR WARS: THE PHANTOM MENACE (1999 - majestic variation)

"Angela's Prayer" from ANGELA'S ASHES (1999)

"A Window to the Past" from HARRY POTTER 3 (2004)

"The Hope" from MUNICH (2005)

Bits and pieces from WAR HORSE (2011)

Aren't you essentially talking about Williams' use of choir as the "religious sound"? That is, I imagine you'd include the main title from Jurassic Park as another example.