"Carbon Freeze/Darth Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fet

[Wojo 2,453]

This is one my favorite John Williams pieces ever. Back in 1995 when I first got the 1993 boxed anthology, the soundtrack to The Empire Strikes back was my least favorite, the way it worked on CD. It wasn't until I watched the movie a bit more that I begun to appreciate this as my favorite out of the three that there were at the time (and with two new Star Wars films made since then, Empire's still atop the heap). Plus, what I think helped me better appreciate Empire was when I copied the CDs onto cassette, putting the various tracks from the fourth CD (alternates and unreleased cues) where they belong in IV, V, and VI. This worked wonders with Empire, putting back in "Drawing the Battlelines," "Attack Position," "Crash Landing," "Losing a Hand," and "Carbon Freeze..." Of course, the Special Edition soundtracks meant the anthology went into storage, and the cassettes were taped over.

My question pertains to the "Carbon Freeze/Darth Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fett" cue's placement in the film. It begins when we see Luke's X-Wing en route to Bespin and plays pretty much nonstop (except for the early duel scenes, which were dramatic enough that score would've been too much) until the 10:18 mark after the climactic build of Han and Leia's Love Theme as the Slave I lifts off. After that point in the music, we cut to the second installment of Luke and Vader's duel, the part where Luke loses his saber and has to roll down the stairs to retrieve it, then ends up in the carbon chamber. Then he jumps down to the lower level, where the giant window to the center core is, and when Vader rejoins him, the music to "The Duel" aka "Clash of Lightsabers" begins, and from there until the end of the movie, it follows the soundtrack to the letter, with the exception of interrupting "Hyperspace" to allow Vader to return to the Executor.

My question is, where is the last minute and a half or so of the "Carbon Freeze/Darth Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fett" piece, from 10:18 to 11:50? In this unseen bit of music, we hear one more bit of the Imperial March, which slowly transistions to a driving Force Theme, a skyward fanfare, and ends with a delicate bit of Luke's Theme. This music certainly is not "The Departure of Boba Fett," that came minutes ago; I want to know where it was heard in the movie, if anywhere.

I don't know if this has been answered in another post earlier or not. Jakster's post on this page about Yoda's Theme made me think of it.

Thanks.

[Jim Ware 526]

The piece of music that you refer to was composed for the second Luke/Vader duel scene, but was not used in the finished film.

There is another section (the end of 'Luke Pursues The Captives'. I can't remember the track times off hand) that underscored the start of the duel, but this was also dropped from the finished film.

[Jim Ware 526]

An additional comment - Empire has more unused music than any other Star Wars score, to my knowledge. Over 20 minutes of score went unused in the final cut.

[Trumpeteer 302]

As Jim said, a lot of the music went unused. Actually, the last 35 minutes of "Empire" were scored wall-to-wall, but the music turns off for the first Vader/Luke confrontation.

I used to have that box set, Wojo, but I sold it when I bought the 1997 sets. If you cue up the movie to the start of the music when Luke flies into Bespin, the CD tracks match perfectly, so you can hear the music that was cut along with the film. I do this often, and agree that music should not have been used.

[UCFKevin 0]

I believe somewhere on the Cinescape website, you can download the clip from ESB with that music infused into it, and it works quite well.

[Kevin McCallister 0]

I've done this too Trumpeteer.

The music works very well, but in a way, it is better that it was left out of the final film. The scene is still scored perfectly though. I love the way a light version of Luke's theme is heard as he un-sheaths his lightsaber after knocking down Vader. It symbolizes a partial victory but not complete...

[PBL 0]

And also the bombastic use of the Yoda Theme as Luke fights and pushes Darth Vader off the stage... But I have to agree Lucas (or Keshner? most probably) decision not to include the music here... it kinda reminds me some B movies...

[Guest]

The use of music in EMPIRE is especially ironic considering how wall-to-wall the music is in ATTACK OF THE CLONES - perhaps letting more sequences play without music might have helped? Certainly, I would have preferred the conveyor belt sequnce to be sound effects only rather than with that mish-mash of music editing that appeared in the final film (although the original music composed for the scene is one of my favorite bits of set-piece writing JW has done for a star wars film).

elvisjones

[Lurker 5]

I guess it's not ironic that my favorite Star Wars score is also the shortest score. Star Wars is a very smart score, that only comes into play when it's necessary. The wall to wall approach is not always the best.

I do agree though with Mr. Jones. The original un-edited "On The Conveyor Belt" is a fun cue.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

what does wall-to-wall mean? that it was scored with the movie at hand?

[Lurker 5]

what does wall-to-wall mean? that it was scored with the movie at hand?

It means that the score plays constantly throughout the film.

Neil

[Wojo 2,453]

The piece of music that you refer to was composed for the second Luke/Vader duel scene, but was not used in the finished film.  

That makes sense. I just watched the part of The Empire Strikes Back from Luke's X-Wing flying in until Luke pushes Vader off the carbon freezing platform, trying to synchronize it with the Special Edition score bit to "Carbon Freeze/et al," as you guys all described. It lost synch after the giant black hand pulled Han's frozen body out of the chamber, since the Special Edition version of this cue includes an additional 45 seconds or so that wasn't in the movie, but by the time Yoda's Theme was adventurous for the first time with Luke and Boba Fett exchanging blaster fire in the hallway, I was able to get it back in synch until the end of the cue.

Since it's fresh in my mind, here's my thoughts: The first battle with Luke and Vader happens at around the 8 minute mark of the "Carbon Freeze/et al" track, from about 7:45 or so to 8:20 or so. It's good that the music was cut from that first duel sequence, since the ambient sounds of the carbon chamber, Vader's taunts, and lack of music work well in the film; that, and the fact that that particular passage of music is mostly dark chords and what I presume to be a variant of Boba Fett's theme (|; daa, diddly-diddly-diddly duhn daa, daa, diddy-diddly-diddly duhn duh-dee, duhn (da-da-da, da-da-da da-da-da) bom bohm ;|), or at least that's what I say when I mumble or whistle along the music. Anyways, that music would not work in the sequence, it would bog it down. Then we get back to that staccato part for Chewie choking Lando, then the brassy part when Boba Fett says "Put Captain Solo in the cargo hold," and it's off to a rhythmic build of Han & Leia's Love Theme before we get back to Luke and Vader dueling.

Here, some of the music does actually work. Basically just the part where the Imperial March plays as Luke drops his saber, rolls down after it, and Vader jumps down after him. The Force theme plays as Luke jumps out of the carbon chamber, and this is nice, but I will admit that when Yoda's Theme presents itself as Luke sprays Vader with what looks like CO2 or some other kind of exhaust gas with the cut hose...that music seems almost too comical for the scene at hand, as does the ditty of Luke's Theme once Vader falls off the platform. The Imperial March part works well, but the Force, Yoda, and Luke's Themes all would seem almost B-grade, trying to draw false hope from what is really a grave situation and works awesome without the music (hey, as long as it's on album, I'm happy). As someone described it, yes, it is the music of a small personal victory, but that is short-lived as Vader and Luke confront each other again below the carbon chamber. Here, the music is downright necessary to build the tension, because it's now that Vader stops fooling around......

Yes, I think that's it. There's no music in the first two duel sequences because Vader is just toying with Luke. Luke is throwing everything he's got at this point, since he's still a Jedi in training, but Vader only needs to use one hand on the saber to fight Luke. Once they get below the carbon chamber, however, Vader decides to kick it up a few notches and show Luke just how much of a badass he is, by not only using a double-handed saber stance, but also throwing pieces of the environment at him. It's at this point that the Imperial March in "The Duel" (aka "Clash of Lightsabers") makes its presence known. If the music were to appear earlier during the duel, it might diminish its importance here. On the flip side, once the duel progresses to the gantry arm in the central core, Vader comes out hacking quite aggressively at Luke, and the music doesn't begin until Luke's hand goes bye-bye, and then the Imperial March is stated as Vader's lineage is revealed. Again, pure dramatic goodness; the lack of music for Vader's entrance here makes us think something is afoot, which it certainly is.

And to think, all I'd have needed to do is try that with the movie and score in the first place. Hehe.

On a side note:

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that when the classic Star Wars DVDs come out, no matter which version of the film they are, they do like Superman: The Movie did and offer a feature to watch the films with just the score. I doubt Lucas would go for this, since he probably gets a kick out of hearing his tongue-in-cheek dialogue so much, and seeing how the prequel films' DVDs offer no such feature, but then again, those films' scores are really hacked on screen, and they won't be the "definitive" releases of those films on DVD anyways. Those will happen once all 6 have been out for a while, which is when I'll start buying Star Wars DVDs and stop being the only person I know who only saw AOTC once.

PS - The |; and ;| are supposed to be a poor man's attempt at making repeat signs. Using colons would make |: and , and that somber smiley face hiyah doesn't look like a repeat sign to me.

[Guest]

On a side note:  

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that when the classic Star Wars DVDs come out, no matter which version of the film they are, they do like Superman: The Movie did and offer a feature to watch the films with just the score. I doubt Lucas would go for this, since he probably gets a kick out of hearing his tongue-in-cheek dialogue so much, and seeing how the prequel films' DVDs offer no such feature, but then again, those films' scores are really hacked on screen, and they won't be the "definitive" releases of those films on DVD anyways. Those will happen once all 6 have been out for a while, which is when I'll start buying Star Wars DVDs and stop being the only person I know who only saw AOTC once.  

I wish so since I first knew that such a features exists with DVDs!

It would also give the movies a much greater replay value.

Don´t get me wrong, the classic Star Wars Trilogy are my favorite movies of all time, but because of that, I don´t watch them to often.

Sounds weird?

Well, because I love them so much, I usually don´t watch them casually, only when I´m really in the right mood and eager to watch them again.

But with a Picture/Score only option, this would not only be a whole new experience, but it would also be more like listening to a soundtrack, than watching a movie, which you can repeat much more times before getting "tired" of it in a short time, at least that´s the case with me.

I also think that it will have a very great, operatic feel to it , I hope it will happen!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

On a side note:

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that when the classic Star Wars DVDs come out, no matter which version of the film they are, they do like Superman: The Movie did and offer a feature to watch the films with just the score.  I doubt Lucas would go for this, since he probably gets a kick out of hearing his tongue-in-cheek dialogue so much, and seeing how the prequel films' DVDs offer no such feature

Just re-read that. What is TPM UE? The movie Isolated score. DO people like it? NOOOOOOOOOpe. Remember there are edits on that movies too.

[Lurker 5]

An isolated score is not needed for the Star Wars films. We have all of the music. An isolated track would not offer any advantages.

Neil

[Morn 8]

What if you want to watch the film with just the score? It offers possiblities for a remastering with better sound quality too.

I guess it's not ironic that my favorite Star Wars score is also the shortest score. Star Wars is a very smart score, that only comes into play when it's necessary. The wall to wall approach is not always the best.

I guess you really don't see star wars as a singless opera then.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

An isolated score is not needed for the Star Wars films.  We have all of the music.  An isolated track would not offer any advantages.

I find it very interesting at times to watch the movie with the score only. That's what iso scores were originally invented for anyway. That people then start ripping the music and burning it on CDs was obviously not planned, since that's why we hardly get any iso scores anymore today (also thanks to You-Know-Who).

[Ricard 2,245]

Just re-read that. What is TPM UE? The movie Isolated score. DO people like it? NOOOOOOOOOpe.  Remember there are edits on that movies too.

Here we go again. TPM contains many more and much worse edits than the movies in the Classic Trilogy.

And about people not liking the TPM UE, unfortunately many Star Wars (non-film score) fans love it. Just because it's (supposedly) Star Wars. Sound familiar? :roll:

[Guest]

I concur with what Ricard said above. There aren't so many awkward and embarrassing cuts and loops in the classic trilogy as exist in the prequel trilogy. I mean, the music in the original Star Wars is darn near perfect in its timing, spots where there isn't music, and as far as cuts go, they're flawless. Even though I prefer Empire's score hands down, the original Star Wars is still probably the best listening experience during the music just because the music flows perfectly and isn't interrupted by abrupt scene changes.

The prequels jump around and recycle music even on weird key change transitions, that while they work in the film because the visuals and painful dialogue take my attention away from trying to listen exclusively to the score. There probably won't be an isolated score feature for the prequels for just this reason, but there should be one for the classic trilogy, because the music in those films is not as convoluted as the sad listening experience of the TPM UE, or the Geonosis battle sequence music hack of AOTC. Some of the people who love the UE more than anything are the casual soundtrack fans who could take a crappy cut and still call it ice cream, when others are a bit more sophisticated in their tastes.

For movies with isolated scores, you can just pop in the dvd and then go do something else on the side and occasionally look at the screen to follow along, plus it helps paint the picture in your head when you're listening to just the score with your headphones. When you're watching the movie and trying do something else, the dialogue and sfx just pull you in, and you find you can't help but analyze the movie too much when you watch it. Someone mentioned above that he can't watch the SW films for pure enjoyment anymore, he's always gazing into the shadows or trying to spot new faces or flaws in the FX or contemplating SW philosophy -- basically overanalyzing the movie instead of watching for fun, and that's the way I feel. Besides, I want an isolated score with the DVD so I can be the only one speaking as I watch the movies, hehe.

[Wojo 2,453]

:spiny:

I'll never learn, will I...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Just re-read that. What is TPM UE? The movie Isolated score. DO people like it? NOOOOOOOOOpe.  Remember there are edits on that movies too.

Here we go again. TPM contains many more and much worse edits than the movies in the Classic Trilogy.

And about people not liking the TPM UE, unfortunately many Star Wars (non-film score) fans love it. Just because it's (supposedly) Star Wars. Sound familiar? :roll:

You do like to argue, right?

Are you telling me you would like an isolated score for the SW films iwth edits? And remember what versions are available (SE) :spiny:

I really hope the original version are released too, though...

NOTE: TPM score is one of my favourite from SW and JW but that doesnt mean, as the SW fan i am, that i like the edits. I loved the score as presented in the movie, when i saw it. After that i bought the UE and i also loved it. Then i got internet and came here (and started to collect seriously JW), and saw that there were lots of edits and unreleased music (mostly i discovered then when paying attention to it) and although i still hear it, it pisses me of sometimes.

I think i never said i liked TPM UE because it was SW :? (i recall saying that non-score fans, if they do not notice the edits and do not pay attention to videogames, would not miss any music from the movie)

And please do not remember my darkside when i'm trying to be a better williams fan...

[Ricard 2,245]

You do like to argue, right?

No.

Are you telling me you would like an isolated score for the SW films iwth edits?

No, I never said that.