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Jay

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9 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

I'm gonna guess yes.

 

May I ask, in all seriousness, what you enjoyed about that soul-deadening train wreck?

I don’t like Zack Snyder at all, and I had the lowest expectations for this film. Going in expecting the worst allowed me to enjoy the action for what it was. I don’t think it’s a good movie or anything, but liked seeing Batman and Superman beating the shit out of each other for a little bit. 

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It's a huge mess but there are elements that are interesting. The actual fight scene, which culminates in Batman and Superman fighting in a men's room and Henry Cavill saying "Shave Merthagh!" like an idiot is so perfectly off-the-walls entertaining, you wish the rest of the movie had been like that. But you mostly go from grim joyless slog to ridiculous fun to stupid ending fighting your stereotypical energy lightning thing tearing up the city that's in seemingly every funny book movie now and a retarded monster.

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That movie should've been Batman AND Superman, not Batman VS Superman. I'd love a team up of the two heroes getting to know each other, but apparently the only comics Snyder ever read in his life are Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore's Watchmen. That's okay for his Watchmen movie (the second best of his career, behind Dawn of the Dead), but not for a new cinematic universe centered on DC's super-heroes.

 

It should've been a fun team up movie, not that dark, depressing, violent mess of a movie. 

 

That said, I really like the warehouse fight between Batman and the Joker's, sorry, Lex Luthor's minions.

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Plenty of classic runs  had Batman and Superman at odds, until they came together for a common good.  It's the number one most common superhero team-up trope.  I can think of plenty of examples from the decade where I was really into DC comics.

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It's not a problem the two heroes fighting each other until they unite. Even the first Avengers did that. The problem is to take inspiration for that fight on a comic that had a pretty bleak view of the two. Miller's The Dark Knight Returns is credited to be a deconstruction of the super-hero mythos, so why would you build your cinematic franchise in a comic so dark and adult as that one?

 

This video explains why taking inspiration on TDKR and Watchmen was a poor decision:

 

 

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I think the idea of Superman being seen as a dangerous alien or even a terrorist was clearly all wrong. That ain't Superman. I never made it through the Man of Steel movie but BvS opens with Superman causing countless 9/11 caliber destruction from that movie. I know the context, but it's still stupid.

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I would lay the blame squarely at the feet of Nolan. Yes, Nolan.

 

Nolan did his TDKR trilogy - which were essentially crime dramas masquerading as superhero films. They have a ridiculous portentous grim "DARK" tone. And WB/DC made a lot of bank with that, got critical acclaim and even some prestige awards stuff.

 

They thought - this is it. This is the approach. We are going to big name auteur producer, big name auteur writer, A list star cast - and make a superhero film. NOT A SUPERHERO FILM. But a SERIOUS drama that is DARK and GROUNDED in tone.

 

What you get as a result is an abortion of a script like MOS - an absolutely catastrophe of a screenplay and concept, a great director who is entirely wrong for the approach they chose, a kinda miscast lead, Nolan producing credit (which is fake - beyond approving the script he did not do anything) and a noisy horrid score from Zimmer and a disastrous debut film for their universe.

 

Instead of learning their lesson, they doubled down to make what I think is one of the worst superhero films ever made - BvS. They brought an even bigger name writer, cast even bigger stars, went even more "serious" and "darker" in tone and basically doubled down on everything that was wrong and delivered a quivering turd of a movie. 

 

Same thing for Suicide Squad.

 

So the entire franchise was a misbegotten ill conceived disaster from the get go. And it all started with the influence of Nolan.

 

Instead, they should have finished Noland' TDKR trilogy and asked him to fuck off. And then hired their own Feige - gave him all the resources and had him do a new franchise without the constraint of following Nolan's precedent or without Nolan's involvement.

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On 6/1/2020 at 9:01 PM, Edmilson said:

And here's a detailed look on the new Batmobile:

 

"The Batman" batmobile by Concept Model Maker Jeff Frost.

 

"The Batman" batmobile by Concept Model Maker Jeff Frost.

 

"The Batman" batmobile by Concept Model Maker Jeff Frost.

 

"The Batman" batmobile by Concept Model Maker Jeff Frost.

 

"The Batman" batmobile by Concept Model Maker Jeff Frost.

 

That looks like a crafty Batman fan souped up a Peugeot and added some paint and LED lights. 

Not something a multi billionaire would create with state of the art hi-tech. 

 

Between this, Giacchino's awful theme preview, and Robert Pattinson, to me, this looks like utter trash. 

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4 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Man Of Steel is an awful film with a surprisingly nice teaser trailer. 

 

Indeed. And Zimmer's music worked quite well in it

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8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I would lay the blame squarely at the feet of Nolan. Yes, Nolan.

 

Nolan did his TDKR trilogy - which were essentially crime dramas masquerading as superhero films. They have a ridiculous portentous grim "DARK" tone. And WB/DC made a lot of bank with that, got critical acclaim and even some prestige awards stuff.

 

They thought - this is it. This is the approach. We are going to big name auteur producer, big name auteur writer, A list star cast - and make a superhero film. NOT A SUPERHERO FILM. But a SERIOUS drama that is DARK and GROUNDED in tone.

 

What you get as a result is an abortion of a script like MOS - an absolutely catastrophe of a screenplay and concept, a great director who is entirely wrong for the approach they chose, a kinda miscast lead, Nolan producing credit (which is fake - beyond approving the script he did not do anything) and a noisy horrid score from Zimmer and a disastrous debut film for their universe.

 

Instead of learning their lesson, they doubled down to make what I think is one of the worst superhero films ever made - BvS. They brought an even bigger name writer, cast even bigger stars, went even more "serious" and "darker" in tone and basically doubled down on everything that was wrong and delivered a quivering turd of a movie. 

 

Same thing for Suicide Squad.

 

So the entire franchise was a misbegotten ill conceived disaster from the get go. And it all started with the influence of Nolan.

 

Instead, they should have finished Noland' TDKR trilogy and asked him to fuck off. And then hired their own Feige - gave him all the resources and had him do a new franchise without the constraint of following Nolan's precedent or without Nolan's involvement.

 

And still the fanbase is large enough to pressure the making of a Snyder Cut. This would not have been possible if the whole world was like JWFan. 

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7 hours ago, SteveMc said:

That does not look like a Peugeot, it looks like some silly American modified muscle car.

Terrible design. 

 

 

Yes, it looks like an American muscle car and kids will love it! 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

 

And still the fanbase is large enough to pressure the making of a Snyder Cut. This would not have been possible if the whole world was like JWFan. 

 

It is not. Snyder cut troll base was a fringe cult. 

 

I personally still do not think it is sound a business decesion.

 

If you think WB/HBO Max "did it for the fans" I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

It was done purely for the notoriety, for the click bait news cycle feeding free publicity for HBO Max.

 

In all likelihood the movie is going to be absolutely awful.

 

Don't mistake Snyder Cut for an actual popular movement. 

 

The audience rating for Snyder movies is shit. His movies all disappointed at the box office etc. etc. He is not perceived as some great auteur by the majority of the DC fan base. It again just that fringe troll base - who were themselves surprised that WB caved into their trolling.

 

The wisdom of WB's decision remains to be seen.

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23 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

It is not. Snyder cut troll base was a fringe cult. 

 

I personally still do not think it is sound a business decesion.

 

If you think WB/HBO Max "did it for the fans" I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

It was done purely for the notoriety, for the click bait news cycle feeding free publicity for HBO Max.

 

In all likelihood the movie is going to be absolutely awful.

 

Don't mistake Snyder Cut for an actual popular movement. 

 

The audience rating for Snyder movies is shit. His movies all disappointed at the box office etc. etc. He is not perceived as some great auteur by the majority of the DC fan base. It again just that fringe troll base - who were themselves surprised that WB caved into their troubling.

 

The wisdom of WB's decision remains to be seen.

 

As if the Donner Cut advocates weren't some fringe cult?

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1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

It is not. Snyder cut troll base was a fringe cult. 

Don't mistake Snyder Cut for an actual popular movement. 

 

 Don't underestimate the size of the Snyder Cut cult! You'll be surprised what people think outside the JWFan bubble.

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2 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

 

 Don't underestimate the size of the Snyder Cut cult! You'll be surprised what people think outside the JWFan bubble.

 

I am familiar with the comic book movie fans and comic fans community as well and have friends there as well. From any vantage point the Snyder cult was a fringe organization like Qanon. It was granted mainstream legitimization only with this HBO Max announcement which is another reason why I think it was a misguided decision.

 

 

 

 

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Snyder Cut will be a huge ratings success for HBO Max. It'll probably give them a lot of new customers. Lots of people, not only the Snyder fanboys, are at the very least curious to see this version of the movie. Heck, I detest what Snyder did to DC's superheroes and I am curious to watch it!

 

But yeah, the movie will probably be ass.

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1 hour ago, Alexcremers said:

We'll know in 2021 when HBO publishes the ratings.

 

24 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Snyder Cut will be a huge ratings success for HBO Max. It'll probably give them a lot of new customers. Lots of people, not only the Snyder fanboys, are at the very least curious to see this version of the movie. Heck, I detest what Snyder did to DC's superheroes and I am curious to watch it!

 

But yeah, the movie will probably be ass.

 

The worst part - you will never know whether it was successful or led to new subscriptions. It is a closed model like netflix. You have only and only Netflix's word about how many people saw their films or whether they were successful or not. You have zero insight. This is why some people prefer the theatrical model - you know exactly whether it was a success or not and whether the audience embraced it or not. with Streaming, it is all darkness. So you will never be able to quantify it a success or failure. It is all a ruse.

 

8 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

???

 

Google it.

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24 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

The worst part - you will never know whether it was successful or led to new subscriptions. It is a closed model like netflix. You have only and only Netflix's word about how many people saw their films or whether they were successful or not. You have zero insight. This is why some people prefer the theatrical model - you know exactly whether it was a success or not and whether the audience embraced it or not. with Streaming, it is all darkness. So you will never be able to quantify it a success or failure. It is all a ruse.

 

 

Let's trust in Netflix's word then!

 

And we'll check IMDb as well:

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12361974/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4

 

MV5BNjY2NGRhZjgtNmZmZi00MzdkLThmZWYtNWZh

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19 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

What you get as a result is an abortion of a script like MOS - an absolutely catastrophe of a screenplay and concept, a great director who is entirely wrong for the approach they chose, a kinda miscast lead, Nolan producing credit (which is fake - beyond approving the script he did not do anything) and a noisy horrid score from Zimmer and a disastrous debut film for their universe.

 

 

The concept and framework for MOS is actually pretty solid -- but David S. Goyer's dialogue is awful. They should've gotten a different screenwriter to write the actual script. Whedon would've actually done a bang-up job there.

 

Cavill has charisma and presence, but Snyder had him tamp it down for the most part. Ironically, you see that charm and presence in the Whedon scenes in Justice League more than in the Snyder MOS and BvS (like the opening with the kids and his race with Barry).

 

Zimmer's score was lackluster. I liked that main piece used in the trailers, but everything else was blah. Someone like Silvestri would've done a better job at giving Snyder what he wanted without using Williams' material.

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1 hour ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

But I'm asking you. It's a conversation!

 

I am afraid it is beyond the scope of these forums and I wouldn't want to lead the discussion where it would go. It is hard to discuss. Better do your own research and come to your own conclusions. 

 

1 hour ago, Alexcremers said:

 

Let's trust in Netflix's word then!

 

 

Always trust a business to tell the truth.

 

4 minutes ago, Matt C said:

 

The concept and framework for MOS is actually pretty solid -- but David S. Goyer's dialogue is awful. They should've gotten a different screenwriter to write the actual script. Whedon would've actually done a bang-up job there.

 

Cavill has charisma and presence, but Snyder had him tamp it down for the most part. Ironically, you see that charm and presence in the Whedon scenes in Justice League more than in the Snyder MOS and BvS (like the opening with the kids and his race with Barry).

 

Zimmer's score was lackluster. I liked that main piece used in the trailers, but everything else was blah. Someone like Silvestri would've done a better job at giving Snyder what he wanted without using Williams' material.

 

I think the concept so right out of the gate "others" superman that it renders him permanently unrelatable. Compare Thor - slightly similar concept - a person from an alien superpowered cultured comes to live on earth and has to adjust. 

 

Superman starts out as a freak and remains a freak in this conception.

 

There was no oversight as to where a story like this could lead.

 

It is essentially a What if scenario rather than a proper superman story.

 

I appreciate the curiosity of the construct but makes for a very poor movie and a poorer base to launch a franchise on the back of.

 

Cavill has what 20 lines in MOS? He's reduced to a supporting character in a BvS. Again, what 20 lines? And he has essentially a cameo in JL.

 

This superman is an entirely failed character. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/4/2020 at 5:59 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

 

 

The worst part - you will never know whether it was successful or led to new subscriptions. It is a closed model like netflix. You have only and only Netflix's word about how many people saw their films or whether they were successful or not. 

 

Yes, it's wonderful! 

At last, guilt free people shaming for rejecting social engineering, without looking stupid because of failure. 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 6:23 PM, Alexcremers said:

 

Let's trust in Netflix's word then!

 

 

That's you in a nutshell. Perfect. Thank you! 

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7 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

That's you in a nutshell. Perfect. Thank you! 

 

Oh, you are just angry because Twitter fact-checked a few of Trump's tweets. 

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2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Your text is misleading; It's a rumor, not anything official

 

He's in talks for the role. It could break down and they can try to get Affleck again.

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Maybe they're going to make an adaptation of The Flashpoint Paradox?

 

In it, Batman is actually Thomas Wayne, Bruce's father, that lost his son in a gun robbery. Martha Wayne became crazy after losing her son and she became the Joker on that universe.

 

Also, Thomas Wayne's Batman has no problem in using fire weapons on enemies.

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47 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Does that mean ANOTHER origin story? 

 

If Keaton's deal makes, the movie would actually take place 30 years after Batman Returns. Meaning Batman Forever and Batman & Robin would be retconned out, a la X-Men: Days of Future Past.

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1 hour ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Batmans Forever and & Robin were reboots.

 

They were sequels. Pat Hingle and Michael Gough played the same characters in all four movies.

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