Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Anyway, the similarities are, at best, superfluous. The melody appears in the brass, sure, but it deviates with heavy string runs, snare drum in the percussion, and the choir. Overall, the orchestration is what differentiates it from Hedwig's Theme, but I can see how you drew the comparison. Their E minor tonality, 6/8 meter, Williams's famed dactylic rhythm (a dotted 8th note, a 16th note then an 8th note), the stress in the melody usually lying on the 1st and 4th beats of the measure, 32nd note string runs, chromatic passing chords (they both share Gm), a non-traditional cadence (F# or V/V in Hedwing's Theme and Ebm in Grievious's Theme), and so on. To be honest, I don't see how Duel of the Fates is any closer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Exactly, superfluous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Their E minor tonality, 6/8 meter, Williams's famed dactylic rhythm (a dotted 8th note, a 16th note then an 8th note), the stress in the melody usually lying on the 1st and 4th beats of the measure, 32nd note string runs, chromatic passing chords (they both share Gm), a non-traditional cadence (F# or V/V in Hedwing's Theme and Ebm in Grievious's Theme), and so on.To be honest, I don't see how Duel of the Fates is any closer... Just kidding. Very thorough analysis (though I heard the meter as 3/8, not 6/8, so the stresses then would just be on the first beat of each measure)Just out of curiosity, are you or were you ever a music theory professor, or served in a position where such command of music theory, form and analysis is sought after?Exactly, superfluous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I really dig those colorful flourishes in the prologue when each of the street lights go out. Definitely not Williams' worst cue, this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Anything in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull after the Jungle Chase piece. And about 90 % of Attack of the Clones. Pick any cue beside the main theme(s) and you have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just out of curiosity, are you or were you ever a music theory professor, or served in a position where such command of music theory, form and analysis is sought after? Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just out of curiosity, are you or were you ever a music theory professor, or served in a position where such command of music theory, form and analysis is sought after?Not at all.So how did you achieve your incredible command of music theory, form and analysis and how is it serving you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just kidding. Very thorough analysis (though I heard the meter as 3/8, not 6/8, so the stresses then would just be on the first beat of each measure)Hey, I'm just going by the handwritten score. So how did you achieve your incredible command of music theory, form and analysis and how is it serving you?Just by reading books and soaking up knowledge like a sponge. I'm mostly self-taught. Never went to music uni or a conservatoire, only cello lessons till the age of 14 and rudimentary theory. How is it serving me? Well I compose, or at least try to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just by reading books and soaking up knowledge like a sponge. I'm mostly self-taught. Never went to music uni or a conservatoire, only cello lessons till the age of 14 and rudimentary theory. How is it serving me? Well I compose, or at least try to.I'd like to hear what you've composed... if that's all right with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ahh I thought you were a music student like Ludwig. I've been running off of my piano lessons and rudimentary theory and some harmony stuff that came along with it for years now. I try and find more resources to self-teach and all, but I'm not even close to the level of mastery you and Mike have. I can loosely follow your discussions, but there are times when you guys lose me, which I find frustrating because I find the analysis so fascinating.Other than that, I learn from composing. But I really want a much stronger theoretical and analytical base, some day hopefully at your level. It's just I rarely have the time in my hectic life to delve into pursuing a more efficient means of doing that.Maybe you could help me in some form Sharky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I've been running off of my piano lessons and rudimentary theory and some harmony stuff that came along with it for years now. I try and find more resources to self-teach and all, but I'm not even close to the level of mastery you and Mike have. I can loosely follow your discussions, but there are times when you guys lose me, which I find frustrating because I find the analysis so fascinating.Other than that, I learn from composing. But I really want a much stronger theoretical and analytical base, some day hopefully at your level. It's just I rarely have the time in my hectic life to delve into pursuing a more efficient means of doing that.Maybe you could help me in some form Sharky?Sure man. Just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Their E minor tonality, 6/8 meter, Williams's famed dactylic rhythm (a dotted 8th note, a 16th note then an 8th note), the stress in the melody usually lying on the 1st and 4th beats of the measure, 32nd note string runs, chromatic passing chords (they both share Gm), a non-traditional cadence (F# or V/V in Hedwing's Theme and Ebm in Grievious's Theme), and so on.Not bad for just rudimentary theory. Actually, quite excellent.I've even had uni and conservatory training, and 15 years of piano lessons (recently achieved Level SMP Level 10 piano playing, which is basically a concert pianist), and I probably couldn't have written that out without sitting down for an hour or two to analyze it.You could probably teach me a thing or two about advanced music theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Mark's a prof?? Oh wow, I don't PM him much, but he once told me how he started off a science student like myself and then transferred programs, and I thought this was all in recent years! LOLWell it makes a lot of sense I suppose!And I will take you up on that offer Sharky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Who's Mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I am Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Why did we all start as science students and then switch? Haha.Anyway, my formal musical education is meager as well. It seems like another thing many of us have in common is that we work best as autodidacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Why did we all start as science students and then switch? Haha.Not me. I started as an English Education student before switching.Best.Life Decision.Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Is that my future then? LOLI'm majoring in Biochemistry right now, and currently in my second year. Music doesn't play any role in my current education yet, but it is something that firmly believe will play a big role in my life, in some way or another. So I actively try to write as much as possible when I can, and I take on short film projects to score when they pop up (I have two coming up this weekend...). Ultimately, my eyes are set in medical school (I know, it's a cliche), but I want to write and be involved in the concert hall some day too...Before I graduated high school, my music teacher thought I should go into music as he said it was impossible to have both careers. But one can dream....Aiyah....reading this over, this really should all be PM stuff.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Mark will certainly be a good resource for that, when he has the time to spare. I was never much of a teacher though, and the heavier stuff that Sharky can spout off on a whim (like that Riemann stuff, which I get confused with the other Riemann) is all crammed in the back of my head somewhere and gets translated into my own mumbo-jumbo these days. But I'll certainly offer whatever insight I can. At the very least I know I can pass on some good traditions, most of which didn't originate with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Appreciate it Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hey, come to LA and I'll give you extremely shoddy lessons, but you'll kind of be a great-great-great-great-great-great grandstudent of Beethoven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Is that my future then? LOLI'm majoring in Biochemistry right now, and currently in my second year. Music doesn't play any role in my current education yet, but it is something that firmly believe will play a big role in my life, in some way or another. So I actively try to write as much as possible when I can, and I take on short film projects to score when they pop up (I have two coming up this weekend...). Ultimately, my eyes are set in medical school (I know, it's a cliche), but I want to write and be involved in the concert hall some day too...Before I graduated high school, my music teacher thought I should go into music as he said it was impossible to have both careers. But one can dream....Aiyah....reading this over, this really should all be PM stuff....I'd personally like to hear whatever music you've written and offer some feedback/constructive criticism. All music deserves a fresh pair of ears.My command of music theory, form and analysis is up there with TGP, Sharky, and Ludwig, so your music would be in good ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Definitely mnac! That'd be great! Cheers!Hey, come to LA and I'll give you extremely shoddy lessons, but you'll kind of be a great-great-great-great-great-great grandstudent of Beethoven! LA? Are you no longer a New York man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Half and half until the new year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Augies Great Municipal Band! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I love Banning Back Home! He surely showed folks like Dave Grusin how it should be done. Why can't Williams write a whole CD like that?! It's far too cheesy for me, a slice of twee suburban Americana which just turns me off. I much prefer Grusin in that mode.Cheesy (as in poor, low and cheap quality?) It's very cleverly written Jazz Fusion with perhaps an overly happy flute part. I mainly love what the piano, guitar and the drums are doing here... the interplay between the instruments, the chords, the odd placement ... Nothing cheesy about that! So Williams (in this mode) turns you off? He turns me on, no matter the musical style or form he writes in. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Quintus only likes heroic fanfares! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 No that's you, sci-fi boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 What do you think of Tourists On The Menu, Quintus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Oh come on, are you going to persist with that label? After True Detective, The Thick Of If and Breaking Bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 What do you think of Tourists On The Menu, Quintus?Absolutely one of my favorite tracks on the Jaws album. And I normally HATE baroque influences, but Williams worked it in there in a way which for me made it just wonderful. Then there's the fugue later on... better than the legendary main theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I know what you mean about Baroque music.Fugues are a bitch to write.Ask me how I know. A semester of Seminar in Canon and Fugue Quintus and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHall 30 Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Speaking of fugues, John Williams "Fugue for Changing Times" from his 1985 batch of NBC music is absolutely terrific. The only recording I have is from an awful, compressed YouTube version, but it's much better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Fugues are a blast to write. Just stop following the "rules". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I know what you mean about Baroque music.Fugues are a bitch to write.Ask me how I know. A semester of Seminar in Canon and Fugue Wow not a spoiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Fugues are among the highest forms of musical art. Not only do you have to write a damn good theme, you have to make it work against other equally good themes, or even against itself. Either way, it's a bloody hard thing to do, making the best fugues an astonishing feat. One absolutely kick-ass fugue is in the finale of Beethoven's Ninth, from 9:58:Hell, you have to hear it from the start of the march to get the full effect, from 8:37 (fugue starts at 9:58): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,327 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 What do you think of Tourists On The Menu, Quintus?Absolutely one of my favorite tracks on the Jaws album. And I normally HATE baroque influences, but Williams worked it in there in a way which for me made it just wonderful. Then there's the fugue later on... better than the legendary main theme.I love it too. Then again, I love all Williams' fun tunes. There's also a couple of them on Jaws 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Same, but I draw the line at A Whirl Through the Academe and Mutt's Theme, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Dracula. I don't know what it is, love theme or what. The only theme in this bloody flick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Dracula. I don't know what it is, love theme or what. The only theme in this bloody flick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Same, but I draw the line at A Whirl Through the Academe and Mutt's Theme, though.What kind of classification is that? Neither fish nor fugue.PS: like the little beach scherzo in JAWS 2 most... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I think I'd add "Light My Way" from Rosewood to my list. Its placement in the film is obtrusive and unintentionally comedic. It's not much better on album either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 What kind of classification is that? Neither fish nor fugue. I love all Williams' fun tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 *Facepalm* A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Fugues are among the highest forms of musical art. Not only do you have to write a damn good theme, you have to make it work against other equally good themes, or even against itself. Either way, it's a bloody hard thing to do, making the best fugues an astonishing feat. One absolutely kick-ass fugue is in the finale of Beethoven's Ninth, from 9:58:Hell, you have to hear it from the start of the march to get the full effect, from 8:37 (fugue starts at 9:58):http://youtu.be/fx827bYPBNwThat will never stop being totally thrilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Yub Nub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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