*** SPOILER *** (about upcoming Enterprise ep)

[Wojo 2,453]

Ok, so maybe it's not really a spoiler in the sense that it gives away the whole plot of an upcoming Enterprise episode, but the link I've pasted does discuss what the 23rd episode of this current (second) season will deal with. So if you don't want to know, don't click on it. I just wanted to see what the Trekkers on this site thought about it.

And DON'T post crap about how much you hate Enterprise and it sucks and it should be off the air and how much Sam Beckett (Scott Bakula) makes a lousy starship captain. Maybe something like this "discovery" will boost Enterprise.

http://www.trektoday.com/news/200203_03.shtml

At first, before reading the article, I thought the writers had totally lost it and were looking for anything to save the show (which isn't to say it isn't so), but this plot element actually makes sense. It addresses something in Star Trek: First Contact that Picard and friends left behind in the 2060s for someone to find later. It'd be interesting to see how the show Enterprise deals with cleaning up this part of the timeline: is the incident covered up, or forgotten, or does Daniels show up in his timeship and say "stop screwing with time, this ain't supposed to happen until the second season of TNG."

[tharpdevenport 4]

I think they're desprite... DESPRITE! For ratings. Talk about screwing with the time line. First Picard's crew was to have the first to make contact with the Borg, then Rick screwed thta up and had it to where Seven's parents were working for starfleet to investigate the Borg and now we have tracked all the way back to Enterprise and Borg. The Borg are not meant to be in Enterprise any more than the Ferengi. these are attemps to gain viewers with familiar faces. A tack Voyager used by, well hot dog, using the borg! And Klingons and Romulans and Ferengi.

Enterprise is losing it. You asked not to mention any of those things about Enterprise. I won't, cause we allready know that. I hate to say it, but i starting to smell death of this show. The 1st Trtek series to get canned since the TOS.

[Wojo 2,453]

On the contrary. The fact that the film First Contact "screwed with the timeline" by bringing the Borg back to 2061 to try and prevent Zefram Cochrane's historical flight past the Vulcans and into history, and that the Enterprise-E "followed them back and repaired whatever damage they did"....that fact totally allows Enterprise's writers to take advantage of the fact that the Enterprise-E blew up a Borg sphere in Earth orbit in 2061. It is not unreasonable to assume that part of the craft survived the heat of reentry and lay hidden in an obscure corner of the globe for a century before someone found it. I'm sure that had Picard been thinking, he'd have made sure that all the Borg remnants were destroyed before going "back to the future" to the 24th century, but he didn't want the Vulcan ship to detect the Enterprise-E, as that would more immediately ruin the timeline. Don't forget, there's still bits of Sovereign-class deflector dish in orbit at this point.

Anyways, because there's only been two TNG movies since First Contact, DS9 was too busy dealing with the Dominion to worry about the Enterprise's romp to the past, and Voyager's time spent out of town (not to mention the fact that Starfleet classified the First Contact incident, so history wouldn't remember LaForge and Riker flying with the farmer from Babe), we haven't had a chance to see what effect that the Borg in the 21st century had. Granted, it's that whole "man goes back in time to become his own grandfather" story all over again, and in 1988 (our TV time), when we first met the Borg, the story that Enterprise is paving had not been written yet, so there were no Borg in the 21st century yet, that didn't happen until 1996's movie set in 2061, but that couldn't happen unless 2061's Borg incursion happened.........ah, the joys of time paradoxes.

Annika Hansen and her parents were assimilated in 2356, ten years before Picard's assmilation into Locutus in 2366 (in the third season of TNG), so we can surmise that the first "official" meeting between Starfleet and the Borg occurred in 2365 in the second season episode "Q Who?" We don't know that the Hansen's were headed to the Delta Quadrant to specifically study the Borg (do we? I don't remember the specifics of Voyager that well), they might've just been headed there to explore and run into the Borg on the way, becoming the first humans to be assimilated, and the Borg just never made it a priority to trace the steps of the Raven back to Earth. That whole part doesn't violate Picard's first contact with the Borg thanks to Q, since the Raven didn't get a chance to send a distress call back to the Federation saying "we've met the Borg and we don't stand a chance until later," so the Federation just presumed the Hansens lost, or forgot about them.

The thing to remember is that these aren't "real Borg" that we're seeing in Enterprise, they're not from the 21st or 22nd century. They're 24th century Borg that got catapulted back in time by an irate Queen who wanted to assimilate Earth in the past, and survived reentry to Earth, were basically frozen in the stasis of inactivity of the Arctic region, where they wouldn't rot or be eaten or anything, and now that they're found, they can resume their mad craze to assimilate everything. It doesn't violate anything. Technically, the Ferengi in the first season "Acquisition" doesn't violate anything, since they're not officially designated as "Ferengi" in the episode. They'll be remembered by Archer and friends as another random, generic alien race well until Picard makes his famous maneuver against the Ferengi in the first "official" confrontation; no harm done.

The Klingons are ok to have in Enterprise, and the appearance of the Romulans, while iffy, does lay the groundwork for the Earth/Romulan War that will initiate the beginning of the Federation.

[Wojo 2,453]

By the way, Annika Hansen is better known as Seven of Nine when she grows up.

And boy, does she!

[tharpdevenport 4]

You watched Enterprise, you know how the Vulcans are about Humans and technology. No way the Vulcans would have let Humans get their hands on the debris. No way the ship wouldn't have deteced the debris, no way it would have stayed there a hundred years later for Humans, the Vulcans would have sent a ship(s) to get it all.

I have a hard time swallowing this stuff. It is a rating attempt. Enterprise is supposed to be freash and exploring the galazy and stuff and with low rating, particulary during sweaps (Not counting "Future Tense") the bring the Borg in.

And Hansons were studing the Borg. That's why they were out there. They were accidently discovered by the Borg dispite some technology they used to hide from the Borg's sensors.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Maybe the entire federation was spawned because of the Borg. Maybe apon a shuttle of some kind from the future found one of the Borg bodies floating in space that had been shot off the Deflector dish in First contact, promped a immediate cover up. The body was brought back to Earth studied, but they could not find anything. Are technology was limited. And parts of the Borg were still working and a few people got hurt and the fact that we could do nothing immediately put us into the idea of space travel. We tried and tried and then Cochran came along and the government was so happy they offered him lots of money to keep his mouth shut once they told him what they found. This prompted "faster than light" speed research. To prepare for a threat that was unknown and scored that they did not know if it would return. Also found were bits from the deflector dish. A bust in technology there too.

Cut to a long time later and Borg body is found on a planet. Scared by the sudden resurgence of an unknown and deadly enemy, the Hansons are commishoned to study the Borg.

Star fleet was ignorant and when it learned of a Borg cube comming toward sector 001, they had their balls ready with 42 ships. Not knowing the outcome would forever been infomous.

[Wojo 2,453]

Interesting theories, really. Not impossible, and not totally savorable. Could explain why the Hansens were out there nine years before Q introduced Picard to his future roommates. Again, it just makes Star Trek history a giant loop, which I doubt. No way they'll make the Borg responsible for the Federation, they're not that dumb. And besides, the Vulcans wouldn't scan the poles looking for future spacecraft, there's no logic in that. And once found, they wouldn't keep it from humans since it's on Earth, and they wouldn't know what it is, either. Remember, the Vulcans can't digest time travel any more than the mind meld at this point. Besides, the technology of the NX-01 at this point is well on its way to evolving to the 24th century, without needing help from the Borg at all, just a little more help from the Vulcans. Also, at this point in Enterprise's 22nd century, Zefram Cochrane isn't on Earth, he should be either at or en route to that planet where he's found a century later by Kirk and friends in TOS, while living with The Companion, so Cochrane can't come back to build starships, he did his part a century earlier with Johnathan Archer's daddy.

I'll continue to give Enterprise a shot just because it's the best sci-fi on TV, with apologies to Stargate SG-1, which is just getting weird with its X-Files approach to rewriting the history of mankind.

[Beowulf 4]

Sounds cool...i'll be sure to watch it!

And also, unlike people who don't even watch the show and bash it still, I have liked what I have seen of Enterprise (especially the recent episodes). Remember folks - TNG and the "beloved" DS9 both dragged in their first seasons. Heck, both started to gain speed and get better only after the 3nd seasons. Sure we look back on those episodes with nostalgia and camp factor, but otherwise, they were just your plain and generic space adventures.

While I never was much of a fan of Voyager, I am liking Enterprise more and more as I continue to watch it. I like the fell of the "pre-kirk" federation and the evolution of technology to the things we all love in the Star Trek galaxy. And as long as they don't have major inconsistencies in the timeline or too many crossovers (no one complained when the OS was cameo-ed in TNG, or when TNG was cameo-ed in DS9), i'll be happy - so basically...as long as they do it well, I have no problems.

The only problem I have with the show is the damn theme song. But I can live with 1 minute of utter crap music for 40 minutes of a good show. Most times I skip the main theme song anyways.

[Wojo 2,453]

Awwwww...

You're telling me you don't like:

It's been a long road getting from there to here

It's been a long time but my time is finally near

And I will see my dream come alive at last

I will touch the sky

And they're not gonna hold me down no more

No, they're not gonna change my mind

'Cause I've got faith of the heart

Goin' where my heart will take me

I've got faith to believe

I can do anything

I've got strenght of the soul

And no one's gonna bend or break me

I can reach any star

I've got faith, I've got faith

Faith of the heart

(HAHA, I'm sorry, I just had to)

I think it grows on you. Granted it's the weakest of all the Star Trek intros, even imagining that you'd have Tenacious D sing the lyrics to the Star Trek TOS intro song (beyond the rim of the starlight....), but I kinda like Faith of the Heart or whatever it's called now as a song. It's got a sentimental lyric I find pretty cool for inspiring stuff.

But yes, as Trek, it doesn't fit.

[Wojo 2,453]

I know this doesn't go here, but I've been on a post marathon of sorts this week.........how many posts do I need to be a "regular poster?" Is it based on total number of posts, or frequency of posting?

[Beowulf 4]

I do like the opening visual montages of the show - but I will never like the song as an intro to a Trek series.

But hey...at least they didn't track in a song from either of Leonard Nimoy's or William Shatner's old LP's! Anyone heard Nimoy's rendering of "Nature Boy"? It's hilarious!

Wojo - I think you get that status when you pass 100 posts. Not too far to go.

[Wojo 2,453]

I love the intro montage, too. It's like DS9's, busy.

Ever hear Nimoy sing the song about Bilbo Baggins?

[tharpdevenport 4]

Interesting theories, really. Not impossible, and not totally savorable. Could explain why the Hansens were out there nine years before Q introduced Picard to his future roommates. Again, it just makes Star Trek history a giant loop, which I doubt.

But at least it ties things together and stops messing with the time line to the point you aren't sure of things. But i'm sure this has it's gaps as well, after all, i just came up with it on the spot. Sort of like the day to day Days of Our Lives plots.

No way they'll make the Borg responsible for the Federation, they're not that dumb. And besides, the Vulcans wouldn't scan the poles looking for future spacecraft, there's no logic in that.

There is. First, an example. What's the first thing a ship does when it reaches a new planet? Scans the surface. Now back to the Vulcans. Having found a early warp drive vessal, they had to have scanned all of Earth in curiousity. They want to know what's going on down there.

And once found, they wouldn't keep it from humans since it's on Earth, and they wouldn't know what it is, either.

Oh yes they would, they try to keep us out of space in Enterprise. I would ove to believe that a few years of knowing us and studying our history wopuld have prompted immediate salvage attempts by them.

Remember, the Vulcans can't digest time travel any more than the mind meld at this point.

They're liying. Something Enterprise has shown they do often. they know time trvel to well and have been hiding it cause of the Borg pieces they found. They discover that Enterprise is pivital to Federation history someway and thta they have to keep the federation away from the Borg, cause with furthur time excursions, they discover the federation is imporant in the future for reasons unknown to us now.[?b]

Besides, the technology of the NX-01 at this point is well on its way to evolving to the 24th century, without needing help from the Borg at all, just a little more help from the Vulcans.

The tech is based on Cochranes and little fragments of deflector dish.

Also, at this point in Enterprise's 22nd century, Zefram Cochrane isn't on Earth, he should be either at or en route to that planet where he's found a century later by Kirk and friends in TOS, while living with The Companion, so Cochrane can't come back to build starships, he did his part a century earlier with Johnathan Archer's daddy.

Yeah, he was given a large amount of cash by the government and after many failures succeeded in a vessal that could waork for long distances. After unhappiness of Earth decides to find a planet full of many beautiful naked women.

Section 31 is formed shortly after Warp 5 is made to access it's potential and threats to Earth, including the unknown cybernetic life forms.

the CIA of the future ariases.

[Guest]

I think we're reading way too into this, without even seeing the episode yet. Hell, it ain't even been filmed yet.

Besides, I take your bold faced responses to my comments without even really quoting them to be a sign of growing tired, so let's just retire this string, since nobody else seems interested in discussing it.

[Wojo 2,453]

and once again, he forgets to log in

gd it

[tharpdevenport 4]

Bold face is to distinguish my responses from your original post. Nothing more.

Plus i was having fun here. I enjoyed debating your Wojo.

[Lurker 5]

I think they're desprite... DESPRITE!  

Don't you mean "desperate"? Otherwise, you sound like Hervé Villechaize trying to order a soda.

Neil

[Morn 8]

Technically, the Ferengi in the first season "Acquisition" doesn't violate anything, since they're not officially designated as "Ferengi" in the episode. They'll be remembered by Archer and friends as another random, generic alien race well until Picard makes his famous maneuver against the Ferengi in the first "official" confrontation; no harm done.

Explain how they got so far from their home base, it doesn't make sense that they would be close enough to contact archer in the 22st century and far enough to only contact Picard in the 24th.

[Wojo 2,453]

Hehe, so do I, tharpdevenport, it just seemed that some of your arguments started getting almost silly...but I guess when it comes to Star Trek and time travel, silly is normal.

As for that argument, Morn, I've no idea, honestly. The fact they weren't mentioned as Ferengi seems to make it ok, but then again, for a society to be driven by material wealth, even in the 22nd century in Archer's time, it seems that they should've returned in force to offer spacefaring wares for early Starfleet to purchase, making a lot of profit. Perhaps they felt that their encounter with Archer was not at all profitable, or other circumstances kept them out of our corner of the Alpha Quadrant for another two centuries.

Remember, too, that the Vikings and quite possibly the Chinese and Polynesians made it to the Americas centuries before the Europeans ever dreamed of sailing west to find India.

Did they find great vast lands filled with plentiful resources? Yes.

Did they stick around and colonize? No, not for very long. Maybe the Native Americans scared them away, or they didn't like the long distances, or because of the fact their civilization eventually faded.

Granted, the Ferengi did not fade, they got stronger over time, but they, like the Vikings, didn't stick around. We can only wonder why.

Also, just because the Hansens were deep enough in the Delta Quadrant in the 2250s to get assimilated by the Borg before all other humans we know of (sans V'ger according to Shatner's book), that doesn't mean that there were scores of humans on their tail waiting to colonize the DQ. Humans stayed out of it until the Voyager got punted to the far side and had to work the long field to get home.

:cry: I miss football...

The Ferengi that Archer ran into could've been exceptions in Ferengi history, or they lost their maps and couldn't find their way back to the near Earth area.

The fact that the NX-01 made the trip from Earth to Q'onos (the Klingon Homeworld) in the pilot also disturbed me, since we know later that there's should be a good deal of distance between the two worlds, enough to sustain portions of two distinct empires and a sizeable Neutral Zone, which gets dissolved after Khitomer. It shouldn't be so easy to traverse at max Warp 5. So much for the "disastrous first contact made with the Klingons" of which Picard spoke in the TNG episode First Contact.

Sometimes I think I should leave this Message Board and join a Star Trek one, but then I realize that the people who post here are much more eclectic and therefore more interesting than people who post on Trek MB's alone.

I raise my beerchug to you!

[tharpdevenport 4]

Yes, but (the debate continues) Vikings don't have large ears that are easily distinguishable is records. He does keep a log, starfleet should still ahve it. :spiny:

[Wojo 2,453]

Possibly, if their visual record is updated.

But if it's filed under something like "Generic Species," then it might have collected a lot of dust, since two centuries pass before humans encounter Ferengi again, and for the "official first" time, so it slips their mind.

Or, if the conspiracy of which you speak, of the time travelling Borg being repsonsible for the advancement of Starfleet (total utter bull$h!t, but interesting and supported by at least some facts), then it's possible that certain agencies also removed the records of encountering Ferengi from the history books, as well.

We'll see. The only way for Enterprise to succeed to at least its third season, the point where TNG, DS9, and to a lesser extent Voyager, all started to really kick into gear, gain a purpose, and get better....the way is to botch the timeline as we know it, play around with and bring in familiar faces...and then claim the temporal cold war "fixes" everything so that conventional Star Trek can occur unhindered.

I don't necessarily mean to jump genres, but a similar argument is how Lucas is rewriting the Star Wars history. Certain things that Obi-Wan told Luke in his Tatooine hut have now been reduced to bull$h!t if we look at the current prequels as the only reference, and I don't think Episode III will have time to establish Anakin as "a great pilot" or "a good friend," considering that's the point when his whole life is supposed to go to heck.

[Wojo 2,453]

Does anyone know where I can get desprite? I looked by depepsi, decoke, dedew, and dedr depepper, but I didn't see it.

:spiny:

[JoeinAR 1,949]

As a non fan of the show Enterprise, I am personally pleased at this bold move.

It is a far use of the Star Trek Canon. It may be a desperate attempt by the show, but so was the Battle of Midway 61 years ago, it doesn't mean that it won't work.

Tharp, there is nothing that says the Vulcans know anything about the Borg, they haven't made first contact with them. Earth is a big place and chances of them finding a crashed Borg ship would be neglible, especially since the Enterprise E herself was in orbit and the Vulcan's never detected her.

My only real problem is with the fact that the Vulcans have had warp capable vessels for some time, as have the Klingons, but not the Romulans, who didn't even have warp capable ships in Kirk's first encounter with them. So how is it that with several hundred to possibly a thousand years of technological advantage, did the humans catch up and become the dominate alien species. Of course the answer is our curiosity, but damnit thats not good enough.

[Morn 8]

My only real problem is with the fact that the Vulcans have had warp capable vessels for some time, as have the Klingons, but not the Romulans, who didn't even have warp capable ships in Kirk's first encounter with them.

There is no evidence of that, we only saw one of their ships which was an expermental test for the cloaking device.

So how is it that with several hundred to possibly a thousand years of technological advantage, did the humans catch up and become the dominate alien species

Probably because they learned technology through their exploration.

What's wrong with the Klingons though is that they have the same ships they had in TOS, that's just lazy. I don't think they should even know Klingons yet. The show should have used Romulans instead.

Anyway, if I was making the show I would not have given them any transporters or phasers, phasers btw weren't invented until shortly before TOS.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

My only real problem is with the fact that the Vulcans have had warp capable vessels for some time, as have the Klingons, but not the Romulans, who didn't even have warp capable ships in Kirk's first encounter with them.

There is no evidence of that, we only saw one of their ships which was an expermental test for the cloaking device.

Morn, did you ever watch the show? The ship was the flagship of the Romulan fleet. It had no warp capability. Flagships are usually among the best ships in the fleet. The fact that it had no warp capability pretty much says the rest of the fleet doesn't either. In the original series, the Romulans gained warp capability in exchange for cloaking technology.

So how is it that with several hundred to possibly a thousand years of technological advantage, did the humans catch up and become the dominate alien species

Probably because they learned technology through their exploration.

What's wrong with the Klingons though is that they have the same ships they had in TOS, that's just lazy. I don't think they should even know Klingons yet. The show should have used Romulans instead.

Anyway, if I was making the show I would not have given them any transporters or phasers, phasers btw weren't invented until shortly before TOS.

Maybe you haven't seen Enterprise much if at all. They don't have phasers yet, they do have a primitive predecessor. Transporter technology is also primitive and everyone is afraid to use it on the show. The Enterprise has encountered the Romulans but haven't seen them, they have encountered their ships and they don't know who they are, nor do the Vulcans. The Romulan war wouldn't be scheduled to start until the 7th season of Enterprise if it makes it that far.

[Morn 8]

Morn, did you ever watch the show? The ship was the flagship of the Romulan fleet. It had no warp capability. Flagships are usually among the best ships in the fleet. The fact that it had no warp capability pretty much says the rest of the fleet doesn't either. In the original series, the Romulans gained warp capability in exchange for cloaking technology.

Flagship only because it was stealth maybe and therefore had less need for other stuff? It's impossible to run an empire without warp.

Maybe you haven't seen Enterprise much if at all. They don't have phasers yet, they do have a primitive predecessor.

They are called phasers, in TOS with captain Pike they were using lasers! that's a mistake by enterprise writers!

Transporter technology is also primitive and everyone is afraid to use it on the show.

Yes, but I think they make the show seem too advanced for it's era.

Enterprise has encountered the Romulans but haven't seen them, they have encountered their ships and they don't know who they are, nor do the Vulcans. The Romulan war wouldn't be scheduled to start until the 7th season of Enterprise if it makes it that far.

Yes, but my point is we should have no Klingons and perhaps more Romulans. According to TOS, first contact with the Klingons takes place in 2218.