Star Trek is better than everything

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

17 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Nothing against Wil Wheaton, but I didn't like his character in the show.

 

Wheaton would be the first to admit his character sucked, he knows.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,504]

Perhaps his character was bad because there were no writers who knew how to write for a teenage boy?

Let's face it: Star Trek has never been child-friendly. "And The Children Shall Lead", anyone?

[GerateWohl 4,341]

He wasn't just a teenage boy. He was a nerd type and the son of the ship doctor by that good connections into the leadership team. Supported, well protected, coached, best in class, just surrounded by adults with no need to have relations to same aged peers. So, from a teenager perspective almost the worst type of unpopular type to identify with.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,504]

I suppose that if TNG was made today, he'd be called "entitled", or a "millennial".

Wesley was a twat, but it wasn't his fault.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

As with so many things like this, his character was actually at his best just before he left. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if he'd been just a young, but exceptional, ensign, who grew through experience, it would have been a great character. Sadly he was just the annoying special kid stereotype for much of the time. Even if they didn't always know what to do with him at first, Jake Sisko was much better written and more interesting.

[Tallguy 3,378]

TNG did two things from the get go that they had no idea what to do with or how to do it: They put families on board the ship and they gave us Wesley. The one should have been the gateway to the other.

 

They really could have done "Wagon Train to the Stars" and treated the Enterprise as more of a city in space. That was the whole justification for families on board to begin with.

 

Instead they went with basic Star Trek (as known at the time) which meant Wesley was just part of the crew (in a way that nobody wanted or believed) and the ship was sent on missions (The Neutral Zone) that no ship with civilians should have been going on. The one family they gave us as part of the crew, the Crushers, barely acknowledged each other most of the time.

 

All of this was highlighted (as others have said) by the fact that they did all of this better with Jake Sisko.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

40 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

TNG did two things from the get go that they had no idea what to do with or how to do it: They put families on board the ship and they gave us Wesley. The one should have been the gateway to the other.

 

They really could have done "Wagon Train to the Stars" and treated the Enterprise as more of a city in space. That was the whole justification for families on board to begin with.

 

Instead they went with basic Star Trek (as known at the time) which meant Wesley was just part of the crew (in a way that nobody wanted or believed) and the ship was sent on missions (The Neutral Zone) that no ship with civilians should have been going on. The one family they gave us as part of the crew, the Crushers, barely acknowledged each other most of the time.

 

Well, given the size of the ship, it should have had, I dunno, say, 30k crew/families on board rather than the just over 1k it was meant to have. Clearly the writers of TNG never looked at how many people serve on big cruise ships (the biggest have about 10k passengers and crew and they are half the length of the Enterprise D and a tiny fraction of the width/height) or aircraft carriers etc. Makes it even more ridiculous that so many junior officers had to share rooms. It's like a floating 5 star hotel!

 

I'm one of those Trek fans who kinda enjoys the "how people lived in space" side of things as much as the stories, characters and allegories. The Enterprise D technical manual is particularly interesting in this regard even if it doesn't really acknowledge just how much space there is on the ship. It should have huge theatres and concert halls, lots of dining rooms and bars or whatever recreational stuff the 24th century has to offer. The holodecks could be much bigger so having a lot of real people inside them would be more realistic (within the tech of the show). Ten Forward is a laughably tiny bar, even for 1k crew. Of course, the main reason is the cost and the difficulty of bringing it to life on screen. I commented on the Babylon 5 thread how B5 looks so dark and pokey, just lots of grey corridors and the only thing that makes it seem bigger is the low res inside of the central spinning cylinder which seems to suggest it has fields and so on.

 

It's just a shame that the new Star Trek shows have used the 20/30 years of effects improvements to render pointless things like massive spaces around turbolifts (eh?!) and mildly illogical tech like warp engines that float alongside the ship. It's all just glitzy effects rather than making it seem that bit more realistic.

[artguy360 1,843]

 

13 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

Well, given the size of the ship, it should have had, I dunno, say, 30k crew/families on board rather than the just over 1k it was meant to have. Clearly the writers of TNG never looked at how many people serve on big cruise ships (the biggest have about 10k passengers and crew and they are half the length of the Enterprise D and a tiny fraction of the width/height) or aircraft carriers etc. Makes it even more ridiculous that so many junior officers had to share rooms. It's like a floating 5 star hotel!

 

I'm one of those Trek fans who kinda enjoys the "how people lived in space" side of things as much as the stories, characters and allegories. The Enterprise D technical manual is particularly interesting in this regard even if it doesn't really acknowledge just how much space there is on the ship. It should have huge theatres and concert halls, lots of dining rooms and bars or whatever recreational stuff the 24th century has to offer. The holodecks could be much bigger so having a lot of real people inside them would be more realistic (within the tech of the show). Ten Forward is a laughably tiny bar, even for 1k crew. Of course, the main reason is the cost and the difficulty of bringing it to life on screen. I commented on the Babylon 5 thread how B5 looks so dark and pokey, just lots of grey corridors and the only thing that makes it seem bigger is the low res inside of the central spinning cylinder which seems to suggest it has fields and so on.

 

It's just a shame that the new Star Trek shows have used the 20/30 years of effects improvements to render pointless things like massive spaces around turbolifts (eh?!) and mildly illogical tech like warp engines that float alongside the ship. It's all just glitzy effects rather than making it seem that bit more realistic.

Like you, I also really enjoy the slice of life on board the Enterprise moments from TNG. But I also found it hilarious how with so many children and families on board, the seemingly only medical facility is ridiculously tiny and understaffed, 10 Forward seems to be the only place to eat, no mess hall? and the school literally has 8 children it. 

 

Years later, I thought the Battlestar reboot brought a much more realistic vision of life on board a space ship to TV. Everyday life on Galactica felt real and appropriate in scale.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

47 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

 

Like you, I also really enjoy the slice of life on board the Enterprise moments from TNG. But I also found it hilarious how with so many children and families on board, the seemingly only medical facility is ridiculously tiny and understaffed, 10 Forward seems to be the only place to eat, no mess hall? and the school literally has 8 children it. 

 

Years later, I thought the Battlestar reboot brought a much more realistic vision of life on board a space ship to TV. Everyday life on Galactica felt real and appropriate in scale.

Oh yes, I hadn't thought of the medical bay! It's only the same size as the ones on ships in other shows, all such ships being much smaller than the Enterprise D. Totally agreed, to be honest, they'd have a proper place to eat and not just a mess hall. I get that it has a quasi-military brief status but given that the intent is for the Enterprise to be away for years at a time, there's no need for it to be utilitarian. Although I rather think Starfleet would actually have more clearly separated exploration and military like, well, today, and the Enterprise would be mostly scientists of whatever types so there's no reason it shouldn't be comfortable and well appointed. 

[rough cut 1,714]

So I am hesitant whether this should be in the best of TNG-list:

• Season 3; Episode 7 - The Enemy

It plays a little bit like a pastiche on the movie Enemy Mine (1985), but it doesn’t really work while the Enterprise is in near vicinity. There’s no real sense of isolation.

 

I read from subtext that the episode is important due to the fact that the Federation and the Romulans are putting their differences aside for the first time, but it doesn’t really feel significant enough - maybe because they are referencing a treaty?

 

If looking for essential episodes, I’d recommend to skip this one.

 

A note: Of the four episodes I’ve seen of S3, it seems to me that the score has become less orchestral than in in S1 and S2. It’s still well written, melodic and atmospheric - but is a lot less layered and instead synthesizer driven than previously. Is this a thing or am I imagining it?

[artguy360 1,843]

I wouldn't put The Enemy on a best of TNG list. There are other Romulan-centric episodes that are much more interesting.

[Andy 4,087]

Aaaannnd I've just discovered Star Trek Continues on YouTube.  Late to the party, I know, but this is extraordinary.  It has faults to be sure, but I'm astonished how well they've used existing music and adapted new music to score this.  The pacing, camera angles, and of course the sets and lighting more than make up for shortcomings in sequel scripts and unpolished actors.

 

This makes me very happy.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

Official intro to Strange New Worlds… hmmm, the buildup is great, the visuals are gorgeous if a bit static but the theme… really misses Jerry Goldsmith or Alexander Courage.  

[Giftheck 916]

Yeah, it's very 'modern' in its approach. It's Courage's theme, but... I think Giacchino did it better TBH. At least there it's clearly Courage's theme in a more fully-orchestral setting.

[Tallguy 3,378]

The ship looks more Captain Nemo than Captain Pike. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

I'm pretty sure 1:25 was temped with the Halo theme. It even has similar percussion.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

8 hours ago, Giftheck said:

Yeah, it's very 'modern' in its approach. It's Courage's theme, but... I think Giacchino did it better TBH. At least there it's clearly Courage's theme in a more fully-orchestral setting.

It's one of those weird themes where it's clearly meant to be almost the Courage theme (a bit like the Animated Series theme) but then kinda goes off somewhere, but where it goes isn't that interesting. Also somewhat fed up of all the nostalgia tripping they keep doing on the new Star Trek shows. TNG etc. didn't feel the need to put easter eggs of whatever sort all over the place. Sure, they reused Jerry's theme for TNG (I mean, it's amazing, why wouldn't you?) but it felt more like a continuity nod than trying to be nostalgic. Then for DS9 and Voyager the themes were totally new, not even a hint of Courage fanfare. I'm still not totally sold on either the Picard or Discovery themes as Star Trek themes, but I like them on their own terms. SNW's theme just doesn't really seem to quite know what it wants to be, part homage, part modern update . Makes me appreciate Bruce Broughton's theme to The Orville even more.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I just finished season 2 of Lower Decks. It’s really great, once it figured the tone out and decoupled itself from Rick and Morty. And holy moly, the score is amazing! 

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

On 30/04/2022 at 2:43 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

It's one of those weird themes where it's clearly meant to be almost the Courage theme (a bit like the Animated Series theme) but then kinda goes off somewhere, but where it goes isn't that interesting. Also somewhat fed up of all the nostalgia tripping they keep doing on the new Star Trek shows. TNG etc. didn't feel the need to put easter eggs of whatever sort all over the place. Sure, they reused Jerry's theme for TNG (I mean, it's amazing, why wouldn't you?) but it felt more like a continuity nod than trying to be nostalgic. Then for DS9 and Voyager the themes were totally new, not even a hint of Courage fanfare. I'm still not totally sold on either the Picard or Discovery themes as Star Trek themes, but I like them on their own terms. SNW's theme just doesn't really seem to quite know what it wants to be, part homage, part modern update . Makes me appreciate Bruce Broughton's theme to The Orville even more.

According to this article https://www.engadget.com/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-preview-040051197.html, Russo only wrote the theme, Nami Melumad wrote the score. The comments on the score are  much more complimentary than those about the theme. If it’s like her work on Prodigy I think I’ll enjoy it!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,504]

On 29/04/2022 at 11:22 PM, Giftheck said:

Yeah, it's very 'modern' in its approach. It's Courage's theme, but... I think Giacchino did it better TBH. At least there it's clearly Courage's theme in a more fully-orchestral setting.

Indeed. It's a riff on Courage. It's nice, though.

[Andy 4,087]

10 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

I just finished season 2 of Lower Decks. It’s really great, once it figured the tone out and decoupled itself from Rick and Morty. And holy moly, the score is amazing! 

I’ve never watched Rick and Morty.   I tried the first episode of Lower Decks and couldn’t get past the first 5 minutes. The hyperactive style of dialogue delivery just wasn’t for me.  Should I have stuck with it?  And how far in does it find it’s groove?  I don’t mean to be intolerant of new things, but it really felt like it wasn’t intended for me. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'd say the first half of the first season is the weakest. Super hyperactive and loud (like Rick and Morty). Later on things slow down a little and they actually start to focus on interesting Trek plots, but it's still a cartoon so it's always going to be a bit boisterous. Some of the characters can be abrasive, but that's part of the charm for me. Maybe try a random later episode and see if you like it (it's mostly episodic), but yeah, it might not be for you.

[artguy360 1,843]

What are people's pre-premier Strange New World thoughts? I'm curious to see if the show truly does capture the optimism of TOS and TNG and if the story of the week format will feel like a return to tradition or something worse.

[Andy 4,087]

I think there will be a story of the week, but also an overarching story throughout the season.   I’ll give it a go. I never watched Discovery, so I’m not sure what angle this Pike is coming from. But even in The Cage, Pike was already a bit worn and weary.  I’m sure the arch of SNW will show him getting to “decide who loves and who dies “

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm really excited for SNW. Easily the strongest parts of Discovery were the episodes focused on Pike and his crew. The news that it's mostly episodic bodes very well - it's crazy how much my preference for that format has increased over the years. I've been watching the odd Voyager lately (which was my entry into Trek) and I've really loved the tight storytelling, and how easy it is to dip in and out of the episodes and not feel anxious I've missed anything important.

 

Speaking of VOY, it's aged pretty well IMO (save for the frequently stilted Kes/Paris/Kim scenes). I know it has its detractors but Mulgrew gives 100% in every scene she's in, as do most of the rest of the cast. I reeeeally hope she turns up in person one of these days - a spin-off with Seven, Raffi and Janeway would be really fantastic. I know her relationship with Jeri Ryan was strained but I'd like to think they patched things up. If Beltran can come back to voice Chakotay after burning his bridges then anything's possible.

 

One amusing thing I've noticed is just how damn close everyone used to have to stand near each other in the 4:3 aspect ratio days. The actors are practically on top of each other to stay in the frame together, it's quite funny. 

[Groovygoth666 650]

I'll be honest I've not read through every page of the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating anything else said before.

 

Having watched the Kelvin film's and the first season of Discovery, from what I hear of the rest, modern Trek is not Star Trek. SNW is supposedly lighter in tone than the recent stuff, but going back to before TOS seems to be more damage control than any actual creative storytelling. Same with Picard season 3 bringing back TNG crew.

 

Again sorry if this has been discussed before, but with where modern audiences/entertainment is could a true Star Trek show, in line with the older stuff actually work today? 

[Giftheck 916]

I've yet to see what anybody means when they say 'it's not Star Trek'.

 

(Though STID is pretty bad and I could never get into Discovery)

[Dave 217]

On 06/05/2022 at 5:03 AM, Groovygoth666 said:

SNW is supposedly lighter in tone than the recent stuff, but going back to before TOS seems to be more damage control than any actual creative storytelling. Same with Picard season 3 bringing back TNG crew.

The damage control started way back in Discovery Season 2 when they brought Pike and the Enterprise back because the new characters are either unlikable or mary sues. Or both. Fans wanted a Show set after nemesis, so they got Picard S1 and Discovery S3. Lower Decks use the style (as far as possible) of TNG, and Prodigy has Janeway. Then the Fans wanted a Star Trek with sinlge episode stories and a crew working together to solve them. With no constant crying in a dystopian setting. And I hope that SNW delivers on that. Did someone here watch it?

[rough cut 1,714]

Not that anybody cares, but I thought I’d give an update on my progress on TNG - more specifically on the “best of” list I put together from various sources on the web.

Half way through 

I am currently at the end of S04 and damn it, how good it is.

 

First though a comment on S03, where the show is said to really “get good.” I enjoyed the whole series, and of course especially the ending of S03 and the plot’s conclusion in the beginning of S04 - the first battle with the Borg - which I guess is a highlight of the series (and perhaps Star Trek in general).

 

But what really blew me away was what followed the Borg in S04E03!

 

It’s basically a drama where Picard is dealing with the trauma of being assimilated by the Borg. Not a whole lot of sci-fi to go around: he mulls around with his estranged family. It is slow paced, devoid of any Star Trek clichés and character driven - I don’t think I’ve seen anything like it in any sci-if or “action”-series - and it’s great.

 

What a hell of a thing to put in here!

 

Another thing I have started to appreciate on the whole is that the writers don’t shy away from an ambiguous ending, or an ending where the good guys don’t necessarily win. That’s also something we don’t often see today.

 

“Vash”

I had previously added to the list, on my own initiative, S04E20 “Qpid” based solely on the fact of the appearance of Q. But 5 mins into the episode, I realized was missing some backstory due to the appearance of Vash, an intelligent, beautiful and charming femme fatal. She grabs your attention from the moment she appears on the screen! So I quickly backtreaded and added the episode where Picard and Vash first encountered each other:

• Season 3; Episode 19 - Captain’s Holiday

And boy am I glad it did. Granted, the two episodes are a bit silly, but Jennifer Hetrick‘s portrayal of Vash - and the character’s impact on Picard - is something not to miss.

 

 

Editing the “best of”-list 

Simultaneously, I have come across another episode that I think should be excluded from the “best of” list:

• Season 4; Episode 22 - Half A Life

It’s not bad per say, it’s engaging and has an interesting plot. But the whole episode is just a downer and it doesn’t go any where or include any new insights to the crew and cast that we like. I just didn’t find that the premise could hold up to previously selected episodes of S04 which were a literal the ‘homerun’ of quality screen time. So sadly, this episode rather breaks the pace.

 

That said, can’t wait to continue with the finale of S04.

[Positivatee 327]

I disagree. 

 

Half a Life is a profound episode because it shows how the Starfleet crew is not permitted to let their personal emotions and relationship goals interfere with the natural progression of strange cultures. 

 

Lwaxana is eternally horny. If she can't bed Picard, she wants attractive alien men. Charles Winchester III is this week's morsel. But his culture decrees that at a certain age, he needs to die. Even if he still can contribute to society and save his planet. It's part of his his society. It's expected. 

 

But it's alien to her and she tries to rock the boat. In the end, the Prime Directive cannot be violated and she's forced to watch him die. Yes it's a downer because his society would rather kill him than have him go into exile or continue to save their world. It's a very stupid aspect of their culture, but we're looking through the eyes of our real world culture, where suicide is never a good thing. Lwaxana will need to wait another week for love. 

 

You will see the same culture shock type of story in Season 5's The Outcast. 

 

Thank the maker that Michelle Forbes' hairstyle never caught on.

[rough cut 1,714]

I think the point comes across in other episodes, but in more engaging ways.

[Positivatee 327]

It's better than the "let's get married naked" episode. 

[rough cut 1,714]

Haven’t seen it, but it sounds like a hoot!

[Positivatee 327]

29 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Haven’t seen it, but it sounds like a hoot!

 

Cost of Living, s5e20. Garbage. Terrible. 

[Tallguy 3,378]

2 hours ago, rough cut said:

• Season 4; Episode 22 - Half A Life

It’s not bad per say, it’s engaging and has an interesting plot. But the whole episode is just a downer and it doesn’t go any where or include any new insights to the crew and cast that we like. I just didn’t find that the premise could hold up to previously selected episodes of S04 which were a literal the ‘homerun’ of quality screen time. So sadly, this episode rather breaks the pace.

 

I'll say that Half a Life is textbook Star Trek. I have a feeling that it will get more timely rather than less. It has a fantastic guest star. It's one of the more plausible "What If?" Star Trek social issue episodes. (I love A Taste of Armageddon but there's a lot of reasons it's absurd.)

 

On 06/05/2022 at 1:28 AM, Dave said:

Did someone here watch it?

 

I'm almost through it. I like it. All by itself, I like it a lot. It's heart is very much in the Star Trek place. I have the same quibbles of look and design that I have with most of post-JJ Trek. But what are you going to do?

 

Somehow America's current social strife will lead to the Eugenics Wars. Ohhhhhh kay?

[Positivatee 327]

27 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Somehow America's current social strife will lead to the Eugenics Wars. Ohhhhhh kay?

 

Not exactly. In Star Trek lore, the original Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s. Khan (the original one, not Doctor Strange) and his followers fled Earth in 1996. Of course, one could surmise that just like WWI was the most direct cause of WWII a generation later, the Eugenics Wars planted the seeds for worse wars to come in the mid-21st century, ultimately concluding with WWIII just prior to First Contact in 2063.

 

But if the Picard show is blaming the future wars on America's current xenophobia and oppression, well, that's just Q being preachy in an alternate, apocryphal timeline. 

[Tallguy 3,378]

12 hours ago, Positivatee said:

 

Not exactly. In Star Trek lore, the original Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s. Khan (the original one, not Doctor Strange) and his followers fled Earth in 1996. Of course, one could surmise that just like WWI was the most direct cause of WWII a generation later, the Eugenics Wars planted the seeds for worse wars to come in the mid-21st century, ultimately concluding with WWIII just prior to First Contact in 2063.

 

But if the Picard show is blaming the future wars on America's current xenophobia and oppression, well, that's just Q being preachy in an alternate, apocryphal timeline. 

 

Not Picard. Strange New Worlds.

 

Spoiler

Pike explains that the Second Civil War(while showing January 6th in D.C.) became the Eugenics War which became World War III.

 

[Positivatee 327]

Ugh. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

After INTO DARKNESS and DISCOVERY/PICARD , I jumped ship

Are they still making movies?

[Andy 4,087]

Supposedly there is another Kelvin  timeline movie in the works with Pine and crew.

[Tallguy 3,378]

Rather than further derail the Doctor "Why Didn't Danny Use Gia's Theme More" Strange thread...

 

A quick list of where and when the film composers used Courage's theme. (I'm going from memory and more than open to corrections.)

 

Goldsmith:

The Motion Picture - The theme is used three times (recorded twice) and arranged by Courage himself, not Goldsmith. The fanfare is never used.

 

The Final Frontier - The fanfare begins and opening and closing credits of the the film. It's played when the first see the planet inside the barrier. The theme is never used.

 

Horner:

The Wrath of Khan - The fanfare is used at the opening of the film and once more near the end of the main titles. It's played in Kirk in Space Shuttle and Kirk Takes Command. It's played under Spock's narration, during the end titles before Spock's theme, and and the close of the movie. The theme is not used in this film.

 

The Search for Spock - The fanfare plays under Spock's narration again. It's played (a couple of times?) over the transition to the U.S.S. Grissom. It's featured in Stealing the Enterprise (along with the mysterioso opening notes from the TV show). It's played when the bird of prey escapes Genesis. The mysterioso, the fanfare, AND the theme play in the final scene. The end titles are a reprise from The Wrath of Khan.

 

Rosenman:

The Voyage Home - The fanfare opens the movie. Rosenman plays the fanfare and theme over the last scene.

 

Eidelman:

The Undiscovered Country - A brief quote of the fanfare is played as Kirk gives the order to leave spacedock. It plays when Spock says "Go to hell." And then it is used as the Enterprise flies into the sun(set) and as William Shatner's credit appears. It's almost quoted at the end of the credits.

 

I'll let someone else do the TNG movies and JJ.

[Faleel 5,340]

Its also used in the teaser trailer for VI, and in the alternate man titles for IV

[Giftheck 916]

In the Kelvin timeline films, Courage's theme appears thus:

 

Star Trek (2009)

-As the shuttle takes off after Bones sneaks Kirk aboard, bound for the Enterprise, the fanfare can be heard.

-The first four notes play as Kirk beams back with Pike to the Enterprise following his rescue from the Narada.

-The obvious one: a full arrangement of Courage's fanfare and plays over the launch of the Enterprise at the end of the film, into the end credits, with elements of Giacchino's theme worked in.

-Giacchino's standalone theme uses the fanfare at the end.

 

Star Trek Into Darkness

-Unused, but was meant to underscore Spock being beamed back to the Enerprise following his attempted sacrifice.

-At the end of the film is when it's next heard, as the repaired Enterprise is about to leave for its five year mission.

-The main theme itself returns but without the leadup of the fanfare, instead a sustained bass note and violin legato flourishes leads it in. Some orchestration changes have been made, primarily in the percussion section.

-Again, the fanfare appears in the standalone theme.

-Interesting note, but I read that 'The San Fran Hustle' incorporates quotes from the music of the Star Trek TOS episode 'Amok Time'.

 

Star Trek Beyond

-Courage's theme can he heard when Spock opens the photo of the TOS crew.

-As with Star Trek 2009, a full arrangement of Courage's theme, including the fanfare as lead-up, closes out the film, with only differences in orchestration. The film does make several edits to it however.

-Once again, Giacchino's theme has the Courage fanfare to lead into its closing out.

 

I think that's about it.

[Brónach 1,301]

On 06/05/2022 at 10:28 AM, Dave said:

The damage control started way back in Discovery Season 2 when they brought Pike and the Enterprise back because the new characters are either unlikable or mary sues. Or both. Fans wanted a Show set after nemesis, so they got Picard S1 and Discovery S3. Lower Decks use the style (as far as possible) of TNG, and Prodigy has Janeway. Then the Fans wanted a Star Trek with sinlge episode stories and a crew working together to solve them. With no constant crying in a dystopian setting. And I hope that SNW delivers on that. Did someone here watch it?

 

Tecnically Lower Decks is still that and it became very good.

[Groovygoth666 650]

On 06/05/2022 at 7:07 AM, Giftheck said:

I've yet to see what anybody means when they say 'it's not Star Trek'.

 

(Though STID is pretty bad and I could never get into Discovery)

Critical Drinker makes some good points on the differences -

 

Although I think his editing for the comparison to Into Darkness could be better.

 

On 06/05/2022 at 9:28 AM, Dave said:

The damage control started way back in Discovery Season 2 when they brought Pike and the Enterprise back because the new characters are either unlikable or mary sues. Or both.

Enterprise turning up at the end of season 1 was a part of why I didn't feel like carrying on with the show. Was that damage control though or more just retconning to make the Discovery crew more important to the lore than Enterprise?

[artguy360 1,843]

'm rewatching TNG and I love the Worf story arc that culminates in Redemption parts 1 and 2. Worf is such a great character. I really feel his pain as he navigates being a Klingon raised by humans and member of Starfleet. Klingons sometimes get ragged on in fandom but they are so theatrical, it's fun to watch.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

[Andy 4,087]

Yep, I can hear that picture.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

[Andy 4,087]

I see what you’re trying to do Stu. 
 

it’s working.