What have the last 15 years of big-screen Tolkien meant to you?

[Wojo 2,453]

Rag doll, livin in a movie

[crocodile 7,990]

Ragdoll?

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

But 15 years has flown by really quickly.

This was my first reaction to this thread. How has time passed that fast?

I was 10 years old. I had never heard of Tolkien or the Lord of the Rings. I was completely blown away. I just loved the depth that this world contained. I went on to read the books several times (on a re-read at the moment) and I'm going to attempt to tackle the History of Middle-Earth series next. Peter Jackson's films opened a whole new world for me. I love the LotR trilogy. I can see the flaws of The Hobbit trilogy but I don't care. It's Middle-Earth on screen and it's breath taking. I'm sad to see it go. Potentially I've seen the last ever Middle-Earth film on a big screen. That's a sad though.

It ruined the JWfan network.

This is the greatest thing I have ever seen.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I like all of the multiple endings of ROTK.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Multiple endings are never a bad thing.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

In the end, I think it's better to drop the Scouring than to drop the Grey Havens (which is apparently what the BBC radio adaptation did).

No, the BBC adaptation includes both. I can't quite remember how much coverage the scouring gets, but it certainly involves the deaths of Saruman and Wormtongue at Bag End.

In the extended edition, we have to ponder whether Eru would resurrect his fallen body specifically for evil.

Maybe Eru has been a baddie all along...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Thirty.

Twenty-eight times on its initial release, then again in November/December 2003 (along with The Two Towers a week later), and then on a Bank Holiday in 2004 as part of a trilm marathon.

Christ man, what the hell? Not even Star Wars fans are this insane.

That means you spent well over $300 and almost 4 days of your life in a theater for just one film.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

What's it meant to me? In real terms, absolutely nothing.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Cool!

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

That means you spent well over $300 and almost 4 days of your life in a theater for just one film.

Partly owing to the fact that the film was in cinemas for so long (I think the last time I saw it in 2002 was in May) during a period when I had most afternoons free and was already within easy distance of the cinema. The circumstances were just right for me to say "Ach, I'll watch it on the big screen one last time" about fifteen successive times. There was also an extra incentive towards the end of the run when a preview of The Two Towers was appended to the film. Not sure about the total cash spent - I think most afternoon screenings were fairly cheap and I remember still having a student card which gave me a considerable discount.

Not even Star Wars fans are this insane.

I was never a fan. More of a stalker.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Not sure about the total cash spent - I think most afternoon screenings were fairly cheap and I remember still having a student card which gave me a considerable discount.

Yep, tickets were far cheaper back then!

[Thor 7,478]

It hasn't really "meant" anything to me. I love the films as adventure films (I consider the LOTR trilogy a contemporary masterpiece), but I have no close personal relationship to either Tolkien's work or the films beyond that.

I think I'm a fair bit older than many people here (I was about 24 years old when FELLOWSHIP came out), so I don't have a nostalgic connection to them either.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Thor 7,478]

OK, so what have the last 22 years of big-screen Jurassic Park meant to you?

He, he...well, the last 13 years since no. 3 has meant a tremendous HUNGER for more!

I think I have the relationship to the first JP film like many of you have to the Tolkien films.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Are you as fond of the books as you are of the films, though?

[Thor 7,478]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

The only Tolkien book I've read is THE HOBBIT way back in my late teens.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Star Trek, Friday the 13th and Godzilla have meant a lot to me over 29 years.

[Jay 37,323]

Dude. Thor. You gotta read Jurassic park right now. It's a great book! You're sure to love it.

[Wojo 2,453]

Make sure you find the abridged version of the novel, it's a great concept album of what a book about dinosaurs could be about.

[Jay 37,323]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Uni 306]

Yesterday afternoon while I was driving on the highway and whistling a tune (no doubt inspired by this discussion), it suddenly struck me that I'd forgotten the most important thing the movies had given us—the one thing from 15 years of big-screen Tolkien that's meant the most (to me, anyway).

As a lifelong lover of myths and epic poetry, Tolkien's desire in writing his Book of Lost Tales (which would become The Silmarilion) was to create a mythology for Britain, which had none of its own. And he knew that arguably the most important element of myth is tragedy. What begins in innocence and purity must fall or be tainted, and though events may lead to an ultimate resolution that could be called "happy" on some level, it only comes at the price of great loss, sacrifice, and a twisting of the road that makes a return to the original state of innocence impossible. It's a state that leaves the characters forever wishing for that innocence and purity back, and mourning its loss, and longing for a replacement that resembles it in some fashion. That's how the Silmarils became the heart of Tolkien's legend: they contained the last light of the two trees of Valinor, which had been lost forever. Wars were fought between people who had once been allies in order to win back that remembrance.

And that's why the elves felt constantly torn. They were caught between the beauty and legacy of what they had created in Middle Earth and their desire to return to the Undying Lands. In going there they might find again some of what they had given up ages earlier . . . but they would have to suffer another loss to get it, leaving behind the world they still loved. Their entire race was characterized by a restlessness that could never quite be satisfied. They felt a constant yearning for both the past and something that still lay in the future, which could only be reached by laying the past aside forever. Tolkien never came out and articulated it in so many words, but the stories are saturated with that overwhelming sense of longing. In adventuring into the larger world and taking a direct hand in its destiny, the hobbits are "infected" with this same feeling as well. As indomitable as they are, they're still altered by their experiences, and can't ever really go back to being simple Shirefolk again.

And, in reading their stories, we also become infected with that same powerful sense of longing. I think that's why those of us who love the book are always drawn back to reading it again. In a way, we want to go back to the beginning, before Bilbo, Frodo, and their friends were spoiled by the world beyond. And yet . . . we're not satisfied to stay there. We're compelled by that same longing for what lies ahead, to watch them leave the safety of their homes and be hardened by the world—and yet to see them grow as a result of it, too, and be changed, and then to return to a home that's been changed in their absence, and use the ways they've grown and changed to set everything right, and yet reach a resolution that resembles the beginning but will never quite be the same again. (That's why Sam's final utterance is a perfect end to the story: as simple as it seems, it's fraught with irony.) And we're left afterward with the same, familiar sense of both finality and not-quite-satisfaction that will bring us back revisit to the story later.

That was Tolkien's true master stroke: he found and struck that infinitely fine balance between bitter and sweet, maintained it through tens of thousands of years of history, and manifested it so palpably in the Rings cycle. It's one of the book's strongest elements, what draws out the passion in its most ardent followers, and what some readers struggle with during their initial reading (and probably why some of them never come back to it).

So was Peter Jackson able to bring that same sense of yearning to the films? Well, he tried. Unfortunately, there's only so much cinema can do with something that literature can accomplish naturally. There was a lot in there about the elves leaving Middle Earth 'n' stuff, but people who had never read the books wouldn't have a clue why they were doing it, or what was so significant about it. Occasionally the sadness of the eldar races would come through, but again, its basis wasn't thoroughly explained. So honestly . . . the movies didn't really get that across in the same way the books did.

With one big exception.

Looking back now, I see I glossed over Shore's contributions somewhat in my first post. Again, I consider them great scores, and well-matched to the movies they were written for, but they've never crossed over in my mind to the real Middle Earth—that is, the fellowship's theme doesn't play in my head at any point when I'm reading FOTR, and so on. They're still two separate entities as far as that's concerned.

With . . . one big exception.

I love the story of how Shore and Co. brought the final song in the trilogy together. They had one ready to go, but Shore wasn't satisfied with it. He knew this represented "the end of all things," and was convinced they could do better. He wanted Annie Lennox, who had been selected to do the vocals, to hear it for the first time and say, "That's beautiful." So they went back and put all their effort into a new creation . . . one that inspired Lennox, when it was first played for her, to say, "That's beautiful." (That moment in the video gave me goosebumps the first time I saw it.) Her voice was the ideal complement for it, and the result, alongside Alan Lee's divine pencil sketches, made the perfect curtain call for the entire series of films.

But more than that, "Into the West" completely captures that acute, heartrending sense of yearning imbued on the books, the feeling of resolution and conclusion but not total satisfaction, the aching pull both of all that's passed and all that might still be to come. It doesn't just feel like it was made for Middle Earth; it feels like it came right out of the hearts of the elves who lived there. It brought me to tears the first time I heard it over the end credits to ROTK in the theater, and to this day it's still a rare listening that doesn't leave me misty-eyed. Hearing it just one time makes me want to see the movies and read the books all over again. In my mind, it's quite simply the best song ever written for the cinema, and Howard Shore's crowning achievement on the project.

In the end, that's what came out of the movies that's meant the most to me. And even if I had much bigger problems with the adaptations than I do, I think this one song would still have made the entire enterprise worth it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

And, in reading their stories, we also become infected with that same powerful sense of longing. I think that's why those of us who love the book are always drawn back to reading it again. In a way, we want to go back to the beginning, before Bilbo, Frodo, and their friends were spoiled by the world beyond. And yet . . . we're not satisfied to stay there. We're compelled by that same longing for what lies ahead, to watch them leave the safety of their homes and be hardened by the world—and yet to see them grow as a result of it, too, and be changed, and then to return to a home that's been changed in their absence, and use the ways they've grown and changed to set everything right, and yet reach a resolution that resembles the beginning but will never quite be the same again. (That's why Sam's final utterance is a perfect end to the story: as simple as it seems, it's fraught with irony.) And we're left afterward with the same, familiar sense of both finality and not-quite-satisfaction that will bring us back revisit to the story later.

Spot on, bro, spot on!

Verily so! Verily I say!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Ragdoll?

Karol

#Rag doll, Daddy's little cutie.

Hot tramp...#

[Jay 37,323]

Wojo beat you to that joke

Rag doll, livin in a movie

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Dumb ass!

[Wojo 2,453]

I play to win, Richard.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Oooooooooh! The gloves are off!

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

It's a completely different story

Yes; in contrast to the film, it's actually really good.

And, in reading their stories, we also become infected with that same powerful sense of longing. I think that's why those of us who love the book are always drawn back to reading it again. In a way, we want to go back to the beginning, before Bilbo, Frodo, and their friends were spoiled by the world beyond. And yet . . . we're not satisfied to stay there. We're compelled by that same longing for what lies ahead, to watch them leave the safety of their homes and be hardened by the worldand yet to see them grow as a result of it, too, and be changed, and then to return to a home that's been changed in their absence, and use the ways they've grown and changed to set everything right, and yet reach a resolution that resembles the beginning but will never quite be the same again. (That's why Sam's final utterance is a perfect end to the story: as simple as it seems, it's fraught with irony.) And we're left afterward with the same, familiar sense of both finality and not-quite-satisfaction that will bring us back revisit to the story later.

Absolutely!

And that's also why I was happy to see them integrate more of the Aragorn/Arwen backstory in the films (minus the strange deviations from Tolkien's own writings, i.e. Arwen first leaving for the West and later getting sick). Many people complained that they simply invented huge amounts of screen time from a "mere" appendix just to have a love story. What they failed to understand was that this appendix is immensely important for the book, and its story (or, especially, the Beren/Luthien story it mirrors) and all it touches upon (loss of innocence, longing for an eternally unchanging world, giving up an eternal life and a return to "paradise") is at the very heart of Tolkien's writings, including LOTR. Although I can't claim to have picked up on that during my first readings.

The whole feeling of starting out on an adventure and coming back home in the end, but changed and forever different, and yet really coming home is certainly a big influence that draws me (or all of us) back to the books, and something I've rarely seen depicted only half as well as in Tolkien. There's a motif in the finale of Bruckner's 8th symphony that has a similar vibe to me and always makes me melancholic.

[Incanus 5,713]

In the end change, sense of inevitable change and the longing for what has passed, not in a reactionary way, but because with it departs quite tangibly a part of the world is central to Tolkien's stories in all the ages of the world. The world is less after that and becomes less and less extraordinary when living legend departs slowly from its shores. The elves embody this as their whole history has been "a long defeat" as Galadriel says, of giving up and seeing the world change while they stay the same. But even the marred Arda is better than nothing to them even though they yearn for the days when the world was young and had so much more beauty and blessing to it. It is the dichotomy of immortals yearning for death and end and envying the races who possess this gift and the mortals thirsting for eternal life that is also one of the central questions and themes of the legendarium. The immortal life becomes unchanging but tremendously sad as the years roll on and the world changes all around. Galadriel's song of Eldamar is one of the most beautiful crystallizations of this longing and another that has always gotten to me is Treebeard's Song (In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan...) that encapsulates antiquity, tremendous sense loss and longing for a world that has vanished. And age by age the elves tied to the Song of the Ainur with tighter bonds than Men, slowly have to accept their fate, to depart from the world and this sense of loss and longing is also felt by others, not just by the elves themselves but by the elf-friends and those who feel kinship with them. It is an incredibly powerful theme that always struck me. The films of course can depict only a small hint and layer of this, e.g. in how Rivendell slowly fades and shows signs of autumn and how the elves depart from Middle Earth but they do not offer it long explanations nor dwell on it in the way the novel can.

Then we have the mortals lusting for life eternal, the Nazgûl, who fall from grace and are corrupted by the enemy and the long-lived but proud Númenoreans. We have the most egregious example of this, Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, whose sin of pride and greed brings about the great cataclysm that destroys Númenor. This is the mirror image of the longing of the Elves and Ents, selfish, twisted and in war with the precepts of the world itself. Tolkien's writings specifically show this lust for long, even eternal life, as pride, fear and an erroneous way of thinking. It is different from the way elves cling to the world as they have no choice. They live and witness its diminishment. With men it is born of desperation to hold onto life itself, not the world as such. It is also stated how Elves envy Men for being able to die and go directly to Eru while they have to languish in the Halls of Mandos until the end of days and consider this as Eru's gift to the mortals. Again quite difficult to show in a film. Shore's music however brings parts of this to the movies both in the music but also in the text of the music, embodying the diminishment of the elves with themes and changes in the music of Rivendell etc.

[Quintus 5,399]

Thread needs renaming "WHY I LOVE LOTR AND HOBBITS"

stealth middle earth thread.

[Incanus 5,713]

Thread needs renaming "WHY I LOVE LOTR AND HOBBITS"

stealth middle earth thread.

Yes we can under false pretenses and insidiously invaded yet another thread. But would you like to share your feelings on the Lord of the Rings movies and what have they meant for you, if anything, in the past 15 years. I promise I won't explain your subtle jokes and put downs of MB members.

One of the aspects I forgot to mention previously about the films is the casting, which I for the most part love. They have very good actors in most roles in Lord of the Rings and some truly excellent ones among them. Most felt right for the characters they were meant to play and others won their place after I saw the movie. I even accepted the younger than in the novel Frodo immediately as I though Elijah brought the right kind of feel to the role. I really would not trade any of the principal cast away, so memorable they all were.

The Hobbit also had a great varied cast of characters with various strengths. Martin Freeman will forever be the very incarnation of the young fussy yet when need be heroic Bilbo. Richard Armitage despite the dourness of the role does great work as Thorin. Ian McKellen is Gandalf (he chews the scenery a bit more here though largely due to some odd scenes he is given). And I have no complaints on the rest of the large cast but have to say the dwarves despite the efforts to make them individual for the most part become background and set decor and only Thorin, Balin and the angry Dwalin stand out with the silent, big and deadly Bombur (poor Stephen Hunter, not having a single line). One of my absolute favourites despite the brevity of the encounter is Smaug himself, a combination of incredible digital technology and Benedict Cumberbatch's distinctive voice and he was brough to life better than I imagined. Again I am not talking of the design of the characters that much but the performances themselves. Lee Pace was spot on casting as well, embodying the slightly unsettling, alluring and dangerous at the same time.

[Quintus 5,399]

Because we always need moar threads about Hobbits!

I read the book during the production time of the movie trilogy and was blown away by its detail, its expanse and its romance. It was also just bloody frightening in places - Sauron was more than a boring flaming eyeball atop a tower: he was the Antichrist. I loved that! Jacko totally failed to convey that power of presence, sadly.

But yeah, I devoured Fellowship in movie form and watched it about 40 times in the time between TTT. I wore it, made mad passionate love to it. We were an item. The love affair happily continued throughout the sequels and by the time Theoden lead the charge at the Pelennor we were both expecting a little baby and I couldn't have been happier.

Then An Unexpected Journey came along and I took the long and painful decision to have the baby aborted. The love affair was over and I booted it out like the dirty slag of movie it was.

[Incanus 5,713]

I read the book during the production time of the movie trilogy and was blown away by its detail, its expanse and its romance. It was also just bloody frightening in places - Sauron was more than a boring flaming eyeball atop a tower: he was the Antichrist. I loved that! Jacko totally failed to convey that power of presence, sadly.

Ah that is a good point! The films sort of treat him as a flaming eyeball sadly. He is indeed much more the fallen angel who has no real equal in Middle Earth and he is unfathomably evil and alien and is always depicted as something terrible and uncomprehensible even to human (or hobbit or dwarven or elven) mind. The eye at the top of the tower felt highly simplistic but again this is where films can't capture the enormity of the idea so well when they have to rely on the visual medium to convey their message. Ugh I still remember how PJ wanted him to go mano-a-mano with Aragorn at the Black Gates.

[KK 3,307]

But yeah, I devoured Fellowship in movie form and watched it about 40 times in the time between TTT. I wore it, made mad passionate love to it. We were an item. The love affair happily continued throughout the sequels and by the time Theoden lead the charge at the Pelennor we were both expecting a little baby and I couldn't have been happier.

Then An Unexpected Journey came along and I took the long and painful decision to have the baby aborted. The love affair was over and I booted it out like the dirty slag of movie it was.

You guys still friends with benefits? LotR that is, not the shit you guys spewed out.

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm all played out with Middle-Earth now. The Hobbit movies turned me off and I'm also to blame just because I watched the magnificent LotR films far too many times. Never in a million years did I think I wouldn't even bother to buy the blu-rays of LotR, but I haven't.

I've noticed it's a genre issue for me as well. I'm just not into high fantasy anymore, it seems.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

The only Tolkien book I've read is THE HOBBIT way back in my late teens.

Don't be embarrassed, Thor, the books are bloody childish pieces of work that an above-average 14-year-old could churn out.

[Incanus 5,713]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

The only Tolkien book I've read is THE HOBBIT way back in my late teens.

Don't be embarrassed, Thor, the books are bloody childish pieces of work that an above-average 14-year-old could churn out.

Oh you mean these books?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

The only Tolkien book I've read is THE HOBBIT way back in my late teens.

Don't be embarrassed, Thor, the books are bloody childish pieces of work that an above-average 14-year-old could churn out.

Oh you mean these books?

Actually, I thought you were talking about Jurassic Park! Oops! Sorry!

Never read any of the above books, nor do I plan to.

[Incanus 5,713]

Never read a JP book, embarassingly.

The only Tolkien book I've read is THE HOBBIT way back in my late teens.

Don't be embarrassed, Thor, the books are bloody childish pieces of work that an above-average 14-year-old could churn out.

Oh you mean these books?

Actually, I thought you were talking about Jurassic Park! Oops! Sorry!

Never read any of the above books, nor do I plan to.

You do know those books above were written by a 15 year old? All you need is a lot of work, ingenuity and that your parents own a publishing company.

[A24 4,327]

Smaug on, guys!

[Incanus 5,713]

Can you smell what the Smaug is cooking?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

It's "Smorg", losers!

[Wojo 2,453]

Sounds Swedish.

[Incanus 5,713]

DEFINITELY NOT SWEDISH!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Is it me, or is Verminthrax Perjorative a better-looking dragon?

[Incanus 5,713]

Is it me, or is Verminthrax Perjorative a better-looking dragon?

It is just you. Smaug is awesome!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

OK. It's just me; I buy that, but at least VP wasn't created in a computer.