BETTER CALL SAUL

[Alex 2,835]

Jonathan Banks is a phenomenal actor. I don't think I've ever watched a show (BB/BCS) where the standard of acting has been so high

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Odenkirk is also superb in what has become an incredibly tricky role to play.

 

There's very little in Jimmy's actions this season that is really justifiable beyond "he was trying to do the right thing". Trying to stay on the straight and narrow or being Slippin' Jimmy, he caused problems and hurts the people around him either way. He's basically a walking disaster of good intentions. And yet you still root for him. Even know we already know how he will end up. Or perhaps because of it.

 

Jimmy/Saul will never have Walt's menace or gravitas. But in terms of character detail and intricacy. I wouldnt place Odenkirk far below Cranston at all.

[Jay 37,363]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

The relationship between Jimmy and Chuck is as good as anything BB ever did.

 

I think its better!  I think the dynamic explored on this show between Jimmy/Chuck and Jimmy/Kim is more satisfying and interesting than any character dynamics in Breaking Bad, though BB is ultimately the better show overall (not that its actually fair to compare a show with 2 seasons against one that finished its 6 year run).

 

 

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Great direction to for the hospital scenes. Like last season they really managed to make Chuck's condition seem palatable.

 

I was very happy to see Clea DuVall in the hospital scenes!  Where's she been hiding?

 

 

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Nothing actually happened in the Mike plot. Yet somehow it did. I think it's pretty obvious who put the note in his car.

 

Yes, especially how that they are marketing season 3 with Gus Fring in every commercial.  

 

Here's something clever:  If you take the first letter of each Season 2 episode title, its SCAGRBIFNK.  Re-arrange that and it spells FRINGS BACK

 

 

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A superb second season, which as ever, starts slow, but deliberately paces itself to a perfectly satisfying season finale. Mike's ends on a note, Jimmy's on a tape. 

 

Yup!  Deliberately paced is a great way to describe the show.

 

 

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I'll be watching season 3 live in about a week!

 

Interesting that you get to live with the tape cliffhanger for only a week; We've been living with for a year!

 

 

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Howard is a surprisingly complex character.

 

Yup!  "Surprisingly complex" is a good way to describe him.

 

 

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For this season Jimmy's and Mike's stories are almost completely separate, to the point that they seem to exists in different worlds. On another show I might call that a flaw. With this one I have to believe it is deliberate. By the end of the season Mike is already in the familiar Breaking Bad territory of kartels, drugs, and truck tires filled with money, while Jimmy is still representing pensioners. Having Mike slowly enter that world means Gilligan and co can delay bringing Jimmy into it for a bit.

 

Hey, you're write!  That's an astute observation!

 

 

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One thing I noticed though. Pretty much all of the characters from season one who appeared in this had significant development in one way or another, from Kim to Nacho. But not Stacy Ehrmantraut. Like last season all she does is depend on Mike for things and he delivers. I'm also still thinking about the instance when she said she heard gunshots and even pointed to a possible bullet mark on the wall. Yet Mike had staked out the place and heard nothing.She also never ever questions where he get all the money from.

 

I don't think she's ultimately that important of a character, but I agree she is probably the most underwritten of anyone in the main or supporting cast.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Jimmy/Saul will never have Walt's menace or gravitas. But in terms of character detail and intricacy. I wouldnt place Odenkirk far below Cranston at all.

 

Yup, they are both brilliant in their lead roles, in completely different ways.  Neither show would be half as good without the people they got to lead them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Read all your ep reviews now. Some good stuff.

From where things are now it looks like it will be Mike who will introduce Jimmy into the world of drug dealers etc. Though we have seen Jimmy act very much like Saul on several occasions this season, he's still in the totally legit world.

 

54 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't think she's ultimately that important of a character, but I agree she is probably the most underwritten of anyone in the main or supporting cast.

 

It's possible. I think we see her (probably played by another actress) once in BB, where Mike just watches from afar. At that point he no longer seems to be a part of his granddaughters life. (which actually makes me sad, because it's the only thing that seems to drive him at this point on BCS)

 

On 25-3-2016 at 6:49 AM, Jay said:

It's no surprise that Jimmy spends the night after their scam, but what's really interesting is that she doesn't have a good answer to give about why she is hesitating to take the job offer.  The parallels with Jimmy taking the Davis and Main job instead of trying to live the life of a conman are made apparent, but we generally don't know enough about Kim to know what her decision about a similar situation will be. 

 

I read it like this. Kim is in many ways the opposite of Jimmy. She's been with HMM since law school, she clearly envisioned a future for herself there, one day as a full partner. And unlike Jimmy she's not the type of person who can just shift gears and take another course. If Jimmy loses a job he goes "Oh well" and finds something else. Kim is a long term planner. Her descision to not just break with HMM but to start on her own...with Jimmy took a lot of guts.

[Alex 2,835]

He's definitely a part of life, maybe not quite as much as in BCS. He's seen with her quite a few times. He has to abandon her in the park at the end doesn't he?

[Jay 37,363]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

From where things are now it looks like it will be Mike who will introduce Jimmy into the world of drug dealers etc. Though we have seen Jimmy act very much like Saul on several occasions this season, he's still in the totally legit world.

 

I suppose Mike will get himself into some sort of trouble, and decide that asking Jimmy for help is the only way to get out of it... something like that.

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm expecting Jimmy to one day get a call from Mike, once again asking "Are you still morally flexible?"

 

I was actually wondering if Gilligan did indeed retcon the ending of season 1 a bit. It's been a while since I saw that so I wasnt sure. I'm glad they did. I felt at the time his turn from Jimmy to Saul seemed too abrupt after such a deliberately paced season. He's definetly turned a page and is a bit closer to Saul now. But still needs to lose Kim, and probably Chuck too.

 

That's actually why this show is so great, and why this is IMO the only prequel that actually works. Chuck and especially Kim have been incredibly important characters this season. But...where are they when?

 

[Jay 37,363]

Yea, I was so shocked by the way Season 2 started, I thought for sure I either remembered the Season 1 finale wrong, or they flat out retconned what happened.  I never bothered to load up the Season 1 finale again to check, and I don't need to:  In the end, they made the absolute right choice to spend another entire season of Jimmy trying to be good and not "turning" yet.  Season 2 was brilliant.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Any speculation on what the season 3 opener will be?

 

Seems very likely it will be another black and white scene with Jimmy as Gene, managing a Cinnabun in Nebraska.

 

Wonder if at some point in the series they will actually jump to that and finish off the show with him in that new life?

[Jay 37,363]

I assume they will show that in the final episode, for sure.  

 

I have not speculated about the season 3 opener, because I just want to sit down and watch it and go for the ride.  I watched the early commercials that came out a few weeks ago (they're completely harmless), but have no need to see anything else, I'm ready for the new episode.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I haven't watched anything at all obviously since i only finished season 2 today.

 

I'm more than happy to go in blind.

[Jay 37,363]

The commercials posted a few pages back are fun.  Basically they are pretend commercials for Los Pollos Hermanos with a smiling Gus in them, fun stuff.  There's also a cool video showing Bryan Cranston visiting the set I posted recently

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ooooh!

 

 

I was wondering. How would BCS play to someone who hadn't seen BB at all?

 

It's a prequel in many ways and they use that fact very intelligently. But I guess even if you knew nothing about Jimmy, Mike etc it would still come off very strong. 

[Jay 37,363]

I've read some discussion about that in the comment section on AV Club reviews.  I actually think it would play out pretty normally;  All the characters that are callback characters to us would simply be new characters to them, and the show doesn't draw attention to them ever (like the way Rogue One did with the Cantina guys for example).  I think the biggest problem will be when Better Call Saul ends and this person begins Breaking Bad, and Mike, Saul, and Gus all look much younger, instead of older.

 

Kind of like with The Hobbit and LOTR, where McKellen and Blanchett are apparently ageless wonders, but Orlando Bloom will suddenly no longer have bags under his eyes

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would assume that you'd be fine with Jimmy. Since the character is surrounded by so many characters and there's so much detail in the writing. You would be able to completely understand everything without knowing anything about BB.

 

Not sure about the Mike story. It seems to depend far more on being familiar with him and his story on BB.

 

Mike's story is very minimalist right now. A lot of it seems to be filled in by what we already know. I wonder how it would play to a new viewer

[Jay 37,363]

Yea I dunno, never really thought about it before

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You may do so tonight and report your conclusions before the next eps streams!  

 

Where's Lee btw, isnt he usually up my arse when I like the same thing as him?

[Jay 37,363]

Heh, just stumbled across this old post of mine that is pertinent to today's discussion

 

 

On 12/16/2016 at 11:06 AM, Jay said:

I find the relationships between Jimmy & Kim, and between Jimmy and Chuck, the best aspects of the show

 

That all feels like an original, well told story

 

The Mike stuff feels like a Breaking Bad prequel.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thats more or less the conclusion i came to.

[Alex 2,835]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I would assume that you'd be fine with Jimmy. Since the character is surrounded by so many characters and there's so much detail in the writing. You would be able to completely understand everything without knowing anything about BB.

 

Not sure about the Mike story. It seems to depend far more on being familiar with him and his story on BB.

 

Mike's story is very minimalist right now. A lot of it seems to be filled in by what we already know. I wonder how it would play to a new viewer

 

Yeah, the appearance of the Salamancas just wouldn't have the same impact on a new viewer, especially Tuco's appearance in the first season.

[Quintus 5,399]

16 hours ago, Stefancos said:

You may do so tonight and report your conclusions before the next eps streams!  

 

Where's Lee btw, isnt he usually up my arse when I like the same thing as him?

 

I watched this almost a year ago and I think we all had some discussion about it at the time. You were probably watching something else.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I largely agree with your excellent points. Plot and character wise this is simply brilliant.

 

[Quintus 5,399]

Did you happen to see my thoughts on it at the time during your late perusal of this thread?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I noticed you didn't post once while the episodes actually aired/streamed. 

 

I havent gone through the whole thread yet after ep 10 aired.

 

I kinda agree that the Mike stuff is weaker than the Jimmy part, but only very slightly. 

Like I wrote earlier, right now the characters exist in 2 different worlds. Jimmy in the high end world of law-firms, and Mike slowly going into what is essentially the environment of Breaking Bad.

 

I think the pay off for that will take place later, and in the mean time I'm perfectly fine watching Mike as she slowly navigates the world of the Salamancas.

 

Like i posted yesterday. It actually makes it possible for Gilligan to take his time for Jimmy to break bad, which he actually hasn't done yet.

 

Walter broke bad (imo) in either the first or third ep. When he decided to cook meth, or when he killed the dealer in his basement. Jimmy hasn't gone near to his moment yet. We've basically just seen him as a lawyer with slightly dodgy ethics, with a rather unhinged family live. And it's utterly captivating to watch.

[Jay 37,363]

Quint never watched Season 2 until 4 9 months ago.  He didn't watch it when it aired.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I will read his contributions tonight, in my darkened living room, with a glass of sherry

[Quintus 5,399]

Four months? It feels much longer ago than that!

 

Edit: it is. Jason just likes to pull dates out of thin air.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I was 100% sure he checked the date before posting. OCD bugger!

[Jay 37,363]

Sorry, was remembering the post in this thread from December (4 months ago), not random posts in that giant thread.

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25083-better-call-saul/&do=findComment&comment=1302658

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I just completely lost all faith in you man! You used to be like a Swiss watch! What the hell happened?

 

 

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Finished season 2 of Better Call Saul (NO SPOILERS). It was excellent, mainly due to the unparalleled writing quality of the brothers' relationship, and Kim Wexler's extremely welcome expanded presence. Rhea Seehorn is just brilliant.

 

But overall I cannot rate part 2 as highly as part 1, because there has developed an unexpected weak link: Mike Ehrmantraut. 

 

His storyline (or subplot), this time completely failing to organically weave its way at all through the propulsive mechanisms of the show's main character, feels extraneous and even narratively basic when left to develop without the anchor of the Saul character to keep the drive focused and tight. I'm being completely serious when I say I've played Mike's storyline as presented here in more than a few video games over the years. It's on that level. I just didn't find his story very interesting, which more than anything is just disappointing given what I know of the man after the superb and cohesively rounded first season. 

 

The middle arc of Mike seems to have been difficult for Gilligan and Gould in the second season: they're under obligation to include him because of what we know but they couldn't really figure out how to keep him central to the main story so instead they were left with the situation that sees the character broken away from the main thread which effectively splits the show into two very different and awkwardly portioned halves. Awkward because the Saul versus Chuck story is so outstandingly sublime that Mike's simplistic little gangster meanwhiles cannot compete, and ends up feeling like an afterthought. 

 

This isn't to say I didn't enjoy my time with Mike here (it was hardly horrible), but it has for me broken the cool consistency a bit. The criminal underworld stuff just feels unnecessary at this point in Better Call Saul. Every return to Mike feels like a functional recap of where the character is up to instead of its own compelling inclusion. 

 

It is a pity, then. But ultimately it isn't too harmful. Because Saul's story is just soooo good. 

 

The lawyer world is riveting (Patrick Fabian's Hamlin is such a wonderful and pristinely turned out c*nt) and it'd be impossible to talk about Better Call Saul without paying mention to the acting marvel that has been Michael McKean, who is for me this show's pièce de résistance. 

 

Again, largely in agreement, though not so much about the Mike part. I don't think it's weak. I don't think the fact that he and Jimmy barely interact is accidental and I think it's Mike who's paving the way for Jimmy to enter the world of Los Pollos Hermanos. It's slow burning, taut, incredibly well acted and if it's slightly less gripping then the Jimmy story at the moment it's because that part of the show is almost immaculate.

 

The Saul/Kim/Chuck storylines. In terms of acting, writing (both character writing and plot), direction at many times it even exceeds Breaking Bad. Right now I can't imagine Better Call Saul ever quite reaching Ozymandias levels of brilliance. But the baseline of both shows is just about equal. I would watch an "average" Saul episode just as willingly as I would an "average" Break Bad one.

 

We won't actually be able to properly judge the two once BSC is finished of course. But unless Gilligan suffers a stroke, I don't see the overall level of quality going down. This is simply very very good television.

[Jay 37,363]

SEASON 3 BEGINS TONIGHT!! 

 

I won't see each week's new episode until Tuesdays, unfortunately...

[Alex 2,835]

Better Call Saul Season 3

1. Mabel

A thoroughly engrossing hour of TV. Jonathan Banks captivating as usual. The pre-credits scene was very interesting, will be interesting to see how that develops.

[crumbs 14,315]

God I've missed this show! Engrossing was an excellent description for this episode, I was captivated from start to finish.

 

All 3 storylines are thoroughly intriguing now. A shame we probably won't see the next chapter of future-Saul until season 4; if he's admitted to hospital following his collapse then all manner of questions will start being asked about his identity.

 

Gilligan continues the Breaking Bad tradition of a foreboding sense of dread carrying throughout the show; you know things are going to go horribly wrong at some point but you have no idea when or how, only that it will result in heartbreak for all involved. Gilligan used the same device to brilliant effect throughout Breaking Bad, most notably the teaser that began season 5A (where future-Walt explored his abandoned and desolate residence).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mabel

 

Starts with another scene with Gene from Cinnabun.

I think that at some point, probably during it's last season the show will do a big time jump and finish it off here.

We see Jimmy again living undercover without being able to completely resist his urges. He witnesses a shoplifter hiding in a photo booth and when the officer chasing him asks Jimmy of he saw anything Jimmy panics and accidentally gives away the guys hiding spot. He feels guilty about having done so and tell him to say nothinand call a lawyer. It actually sounds both desperate and freeing. Just for one instant Jimmy was able to be himself again. But the stress of living in hiding is obviously getting to him as he passes out at work.

 

After the title sequence we pick up right where we left off with Jimmy calling Howard to say Chuck has changed his mind. Then he helps Chuck take off the tin foil stuff.

Another great scene between Jimmy and Chuck as they talk a bit about their childhood. But Chuck hasnt forgotten what Jimmy did and that actually worries Jimmy throughout the episode. Once again the very complicated dynamic between these two brothers is given a little bit more depth. 

 

Kim has some good stuff where she actually feels the effects of Jimmy's Mesa Verde trick. She kinda feels complicit about it I guess and actually becomes super obsessive about not making any mistakes with her proposal after hearing how Mesa Verde feels about H&M's percieved fuck-up.

 

Mike possible gets more time in this ep than anyone as we seen him trying to get to the bottom of the note in his usual fashion. He figures someone is following him so completely strips the car, eventually finding a tracker in the fuel filler cap . He gets the vet to get him an identical tracker and figures out that when the battery runs low the receiver gets a notification. He switcher the tracker that the people following him planted with the one he bought and once some-guy pulls up to his car and presumably switches the now empty tracker with a new one he calmly sets of and track the trackers.

 

As usual when writing down the Mike story, there's far less to jot down that the more dynamic and complex Jimmy/Kim/Chuck story. But it's always incredibly well done.

The Mike story is like like the character itself. Slowly and deliberately moving forward, with quiet dedication and skill. Mike hardly ever does anything without having thought it out. I feel Gilligan is doing the same here.

 

Superb as ever. Bring on episode two!

 

[Wojo 2,453]

I can't believe that AMC has Talking Saul after the show. But I like Chris Hardwick so it's watchable. 

[Jay 37,363]

Why can't you believe it?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Some ruminations and speculations about the show.

 

Spoiler

It didn't occur to me till the last ep that Chuck might also be breaking bad soon. We've seen him keep Jimmy down. Partly because he (rightly) believes that as a lawyer he's a potential menace, and partly because Chuck does nurture a deep resentment against Jimmy. Up until now Chuck has never stepped outside of the confines of the law, or what brothers do to each other in a dysfunctional relationship. But Jimmy's little Mesa Verde trick went badly wrong. Jimmy crossed a line for Chuck. Both professionally and personally. And Jimmy knows it too.

 

[A24 4,333]

As always, I watch it when all the episodes have aired. For me, that is better than having to endure intervals of 7 days. 

[Wojo 2,453]

Nothing ever happens in these episodes, the wait is very easy. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I rather like having some time to think about an episode before moving on to the next. Better Call Saul actually has too much subtlety and texture for me to just bingewatch it in a few days.

 

I still regret doing a 16 episode Saturday binge for Breaking Bad once.

 

1 minute ago, I Need About Tree Fiddy said:

Nothing ever happens in these episodes, the wait is very easy. 

 

Nothing seems to happen. There's a difference Rich.

[Wojo 2,453]

Who? 

[A24 4,333]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I rather like having some time to think about an episode before moving on to the next. Better Call Saul actually has too much subtlety and texture for me to just bingewatch it in a few days.

 

I still regret doing a 16 episode Saturday binge for Breaking Bad once.

 

 

Nothing seems to happen. There's a difference Rich.

 

The truth is that you don't want to be left out when Jay & Co discuss the series. 

 

10 minutes ago, I Need About Tree Fiddy said:

Nothing ever happens in these episodes, the wait is very easy. 

 

Ahem, it's a character show. It's about people.

 

 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If that is the case than why did I start watching season 2 just a few weeks ago?

 

With Game Of Thrones there's a strong element of that, which is why I torrent it the day after it airs. Not so much with this.

[Wojo 2,453]

I know it's a character show. It's about characters we love from another show that was very action heavy. This is still a slow burn with scattered bits of action. Mike's desert adventures, Chuck's insanity, and Jimmy's activities around town. It'd be like saying nothing happens in Law and Order just because the murder happens before the credits. 

[A24 4,333]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

If that is the case than why did I start watching season 2 just a few weeks ago?

 

 

 

Because you first wanted to rewatch all the Star Trek shows. You know your priorities.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've never watched all the Star Trek shows in my life.

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm close. There are some TOS episodes that I missed. Binged all 21 seasons of the three long shows last year. Watched all of TAS in college, and all of Enterprise as it aired. TAS is the one most people wouldn't watch. It has a few gems. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've seen almost nothing of Enterprise, and what I did see didnt appeal to me. Didnt see much of the last 2 seasons of Voyager.

 

Well I guess Alex won't be back in this thread for a few weeks.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Didnt see much of the last 2 seasons of Voyager.

 

That's too bad, because those are the best ones in my opinion.  Certainly the closest it got to being a good show.

[Wojo 2,453]

And for that, we thank him.