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This thread resurrection together with the recent Tintin appreciation thread shows that the Williams scores from the 2010s have often been talked down too much after release.  The music is not always

We just wanted to celebrate Johnnys 88th birthday and decided to watch something he scored, ended up with BFG which was perfect for our youngest, 7 year old. The dubbed version was so great, Dahl's br

Thanks to a friend who has seen the sheet music, I can reveal how JW constructed this OST album   1 Overture (1:18) unknown rewrite of the opening of End Credits 2 The Witching Ho

1 minute ago, king mark said:

Big difference with TFA. I couldn't be sure Jedi Steps was a Williams composition until I heard it on the OST.

 

With this BFG theme I KNOW INSTANTLY it's by Williams

I actually woke up today with that theme in my head. Very cute Tchaikovsky-esque. Maybe it was because of all the drugs I took last night to mask the pain of the tattoo that's now all over my left side of my torso, lol

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30 minutes ago, ocelot said:

Look guys, in the end music is subjective, this is just my take on it and it's great hearing everyone else's difference of opinions too. If we all liked the same thing, boy would this world be boring. And hey, if you only knew what I listen to in the gym, I won't mention names but one of the bitches keeps telling me to "Work Bitch". How many points did I lose now?

If find it debatable whether there are no objective standards for evaluating music (Jimbob's view that Row, Row, Row your boat is just as good as Beethoven's 9th doesn't make it so), but even if it is, in this case there is clear objectivity in terms of musical storytelling.  These characters have themes--that is now an objective fact, if later composers/directors want to ignore or replace them, a case can be made that this is bad storytelling, at least if consistency is to be part of such a thing. 

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1 minute ago, alextrombone94 said:

Yeah soon as I heard the main theme in that Cannes video I knew it was JW. The little muted Trumpet "danger motif" bit after it is sooo JW 

Totally, and that trumpet section is very Williams does Prokofiev. Like Aunt Marge's Waltz in Potter 3. It starts off very Prokofiev then goes into full on Rossini. 

3 minutes ago, Tom said:

If find it debatable whether there are no objective standards for evaluating music (Jimbob's view that Row, Row, Row your boat is just as good as Beethoven's 9th doesn't make it so), but even if it is, in this case there is clear objectivity in terms of musical storytelling.  These characters have themes--that is now an objective fact, if later composers/directors want to ignore or replace them, a case can be made that this is bad storytelling, at least if consistency is to be part of such a thing. 

I agree, and I had a big debate with another composer a few days ago. To me only a handful can be called greats, and can write on a certain level. He was saying essentially that all music is equal. I was saying no, people can like whatever so music is equal in terms of what people like, however there is a huge difference in ability and greatness when it comes to music. Richard Strauss = genius, Britney Spears = tacky and no musical ability whatsoever as far as I'm concerned however people can prefer "her" music if they like.

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I still remember hearing a glimpse of the Jurassic Park  theme in a TV commercial. I went nuts until I could buy the soundtrack

 

Or hearing the grail theme in a movie preview for Last Crusade on Entertainement Tonight

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On 5/20/2016 at 10:41 PM, ocelot said:

OMG, lol, they don't sound anything alike. That "For Always" is very broadwayesque and the BFG theme from what I hear with the chord progression is very Tchaikovsky from his Sleeping Beauty era.

 

I edited my above post to try to clarify what I meant. What I meant is the AI bit specifically sounded very similar to one of the BFG main themes, just for a few seconds. 

Specifically, 11:19 of the AI YouTube clip corresponds to 0:44 of loert's piano playing of the BFG score found here:

 

Maybe I am the only one hearing the similarity? It's not the exact same, but I hear a definite similarity. 

22 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

I hope Spielberg and Williams recorded the farts themselves.

 

:lol:

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5 hours ago, king mark said:

Big difference with TFA. I couldn't be sure Jedi Steps was a Williams composition until I heard it on the OST.

 

Sheesh, that's pretty poor mate. 

 

4 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Thats the worst part of being a JWfan

 

Didn't stop Likes from being showered down on KM's comment, though. It's getting out of hand! People dish them out here in a way which should make Facebook worry. 

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I love that everyone is so different here. Makes it so much more interesting. As long as everyone realizes that I am right in the end that's all that matters, lol.

 

So back to the BFG snippet. The whole waltz feel and orchestrations do make me think of Christmas. For a minute I did think, Oh this must be a christmas movie. I wonder why they chose to release it in the summer.

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On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 6:55 PM, ocelot said:

Again, the tone of the darker tone of the movies are one thing, but to ignore themes given to you means you ignore making the world one. I'm not saying that you have to have the same TYPE adventure score, it's gone way beyond that, but you still should adhere to the thematic material given to you rather than go, Oh I can write a theme, uuumm, no. Just my two cents, I just think they failed which is why they ended it with Williams and why anything related to Potter, theme parks etc, give you mostly if not all (as far as I heard so far) William's themes. He can go dark and still give you incredible chase scenes to listen to that get your blood running. It seems these days, scoring has gone so banal as to be OK with whatever people throw at us. It's quite sad actually. Look at War of the Worlds. Williams went dark, not much thematic material, but still very exciting and interesting.

Imagine someone going into star wars and not quoting the force theme when appropriate or imperial march when needed. What I am saying is not that we should only hear William's themes, but they should be part of the whole as it's part of that world. There are plenty of new places, new chase scenes and new characters to score and add to and create your own personal touches, but you do not ignore what is appropriate for already established characters and places.

 

I concur with you in the end, I was just trying to point out several reasons why none of the subsequent composers weren't able to match Williams' ability in thematic scoring through their own themes, nor able to come up with fairly effective adaptations of JW's material (some of them weren't even able to use Hedwig's theme properly, i.e. Doyle's awkward harmonization). Aside from being very hard (if not impossible) to match, I think Williams' writing for the Potter films is an epitome of someone who is surely serving the film first, but never forget to write proper music that can stand on its own legs. Desplat is surely able to do that, but the two Potter movies he did were incredibly stark and unfitting for a strong musical display. So I blame directing and filmic style first, and then the composer's inability to come up with interesting and engaging music.

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Well that's disappointing. I remember seeing Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory as a kid and being scared to death of everything that happened to the kids.

 

Grandpa Spielberg's so watered down when it comes to kids. First the walky talky disaster in ET, then the totally bloodless KOTCS. His films lack any edginess whatsoever; the only example bucking this trend in recent history (since Saving Private Ryan, nearly two decades ago) is Munich, which had some seriously disturbing imagery.

 

Everything else has been at PG-13 saccharine levels of safe, and nothing on his upcoming schedule looks like breaking this trend. I certainly don't hold any hopes he'll rediscover his edgier, youthful self with Indiana Jones, despite the series' history of bloodthirsty violence and imaginative deaths.

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Yeah, it sounds like they don't really emphasize it, unfortunately. There was a moment in the book where Sophie has to come to terms with the fact that the giants are going off to eat her friends that I thought could be pretty powerful, but nothing in the reviews so far indicates that they really did much with that element of the story. It'd be too bad if they glossed it over because any good children's story is really about dreams and nightmares.

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4 hours ago, nightscape94 said:

Rogue One will be another test for him, to see how he incorporates the Empire/Vader theme.

Well Williams did not 'reinvent himself with the star wars scores like he did in POA. So that excuse does not apply here. Here, Williams' themes must be used.

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5 hours ago, nightscape94 said:

Rogue One will be another test for him, to see how he incorporates the Empire/Vader theme.

Let's see..... I mean, it's one thing not being able to match up to someone thematically and not have the ability to really come up with theme after theme, but it shouldn't be a huge deal to adapt from existing material, especially since the printed music is available for all those themes, heck you can even get all 6 star wars complete written scores if you look hard enough.... This is the age of information.

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6 hours ago, TownerFan said:

 

I concur with you in the end, I was just trying to point out several reasons why none of the subsequent composers weren't able to match Williams' ability in thematic scoring through their own themes, nor able to come up with fairly effective adaptations of JW's material (some of them weren't even able to use Hedwig's theme properly, i.e. Doyle's awkward harmonization). Aside from being very hard (if not impossible) to match, I think Williams' writing for the Potter films is an epitome of someone who is surely serving the film first, but never forget to write proper music that can stand on its own legs. Desplat is surely able to do that, but the two Potter movies he did were incredibly stark and unfitting for a strong musical display. So I blame directing and filmic style first, and then the composer's inability to come up with interesting and engaging music.

I agree Despalt can do it, to a degree. He can once in a while come up with a theme, I loved his Girl with a Pearl Earring, and Julie and Julia, that's where he excels more I think. However I have never been able to find him coming up with multiple great themes and motifs for one movie, mind you maybe I have not watched the right movies that he has been a part of. The other thing is being able to take a theme and flip it and dip it and do it so to speak, lol. Look at how versatile Rey's theme is and how it was able to be manipulated throughout TFA. Now Leia's theme is more "just quotable" but still through orchestration, and meter choices, some reharmonization, it too was changed here and there but no where near how Rey's theme was able to be. I think that's a sign of a composer really being able to write a theme that can then be utilized in so many different ways. I wonder if that is why it wasn't a hit you in the face theme that everyone hummed so easily. I did, but many didn't. Maybe it's because he kept it as sparse and harmonically simple (same start chords as force theme) so he play with it. The BFG theme is way more in your face and easy to hum.

19 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

You basically accused at least two perfectly capable composers of being lazy incompetents (paraphrased) as if they wrote this stuff just for fun. That's nonsense and has nothing to do with the task at hand, namely giving WB and the director something along the line of the temp track, which we know in Desplat's case included mostly stuff like '28 Days Later'. A bit far left from 'Fawkes the Phoenix', really.

They were lazy in certain respects, why are you so bent out of shape about it, lol. You do realize that they actually wanted Williams to stay on board and he left for Memoirs of a Geisha. So I am sure they also temped things with his pieces too. I think you are mistaking what I am saying. I do not think the latter movies should have been the same type of music as the first ones. But if you read all my comments you will realize what I am saying is that when you go to chamber of secrets, you can use that theme and make it even darker. When you kill a father figure like Black, you can use Bridge to the Past and make the audience feel his pain and loss. I so did not in that scene at all. We as composers are the emotional resonance of a movie. More so than anything else. I only hope I can measure up to Desplat's body of work, I don't think I am a fast writer (you obviously did not read where I said I love some of his work), but I would never have gone into those movies and ignored all that came before. You tie in musically as you would anything else. You would not Make Hogwarts look completely different and modern on screen and ignore what Hogwarts should look like just because a different director stepped in. No matter where you shoot, no matter what you do, you tie it in visually. The same has to be done musically! And yes, some of the chase scenes were totally lazy. That part I was talking about the middle movies. And who the hell mentioned Fawkes the Phoenix, LOL. He's just in one movie. Again, read buddy.....

 

Edit: BTW, you know it's OK to disagree without getting upset. Music is subjective. You can hate Williams and love a different composer. Not everything is to everyone's tastes you know.

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9 hours ago, ocelot said:

They were lazy in certain respects, why are you so bent out of shape about it, lol. 

 

You can lol and rofl that all you want now, it was your initial wording that seemed very 'angry fanboy'-like.

 

Quote

The same has to be done musically! And yes, some of the chase scenes were totally lazy. That part I was talking about the middle movies. And who the hell mentioned Fawkes the Phoenix, LOL. He's just in one movie. Again, read buddy.....

 

Edit: BTW, you know it's OK to disagree without getting upset. Music is subjective. You can hate Williams and love a different composer. Not everything is to everyone's tastes you know.

 

Again, instead of reading stuff i wrote (twice now) you project whatever is on your mind on my words and come up with an irrelevant answer that wasn't ever my point (hate Williams? How can you get THAT from my post??) : the composers on such projects don't make these choices - for what we know they probably would have been happy to oblige to use more Williams stuff (less work for them, too). It is almost a certainty that at some point Doyle, Hooper and Desplat had a talk with the producers (and saw the movie with the tt) and it is highly unlikely that the usage of the prior themes never came up. 

 

For whatever reason, it was decided to abandon all but the main theme - and even that was obviously only shoehorned in at very specific points from 4-7, leading me to the conclusion that what you request wasn't what they wanted. 

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30 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

You can lol and rofl that all you want now, it was your initial wording that seemed very 'angry fanboy'-like.

 

 

Again, instead of reading stuff i wrote (twice now) you project whatever is on your mind on my words and come up with an irrelevant answer that wasn't ever my point (hate Williams? How can you get THAT from my post??) : the composers on such projects don't make these choices - for what we know they probably would have been happy to oblige to use more Williams stuff (less work for them, too). It is almost a certainty that at some point Doyle, Hooper and Desplat had a talk with the producers (and saw the movie with the tt) and it is highly unlikely that the usage of the prior themes never came up. 

 

For whatever reason, it was decided to abandon all but the main theme - and even that was obviously only shoehorned in at very specific points from 4-7, leading me to the conclusion that what you request wasn't what they wanted. 

Lord you are angry.... Lithium might help.

 

I read everything you wrote. "You can hate Williams and love another composer" is meant in general, not to you specifically. If you hated Williams you would not be on this forum dodo. It was meant as another way to say "Music is Subjective". Again, I am a composer, I am never angry about music, I know how to write but I have not been given the opportunity to be the main composer on films in Hollywood as of yet. I do not like everything Williams has written and I never speak in terms of fan-boyness. 

 

I know how Hollywood works, I have credits on Runaway Jury, The Shipping News and other films when I worked with Chris Young. You do not have to tutor me on how Hollywood works, lol. I was in from the start to the end of the scoring stages. I still think they could have used more themes if they wanted to as the overall creators loved Williams and wanted him to remain on board, regardless of who they brought on as directors. Desplat did use a tiny bit of Quidditch, year 3 btw. 

 

Anyway, can we agree to disagree? That is the point of having free will and a free mind, don't you think?

1 hour ago, Woji said:

He's still figuring out who Despalt is. 

Did I write Despalt somewhere? LOL, each time I put in Desplat, it keeps changing it to Desalt, so I probably put the p in the wrong place when I corrected it.

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If your idea of exchanging differing viewpoints is repeatedly accusing someone else as 'angry' and in need of lithium when he a) disagrees with you and b) mentions perfectly valid objections to the tone and reasoning you did present in your posts, i do know i'm deep in Ford Thaxton-territory that i am not about to enter further. 

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14 hours ago, crumbs said:

Well that's disappointing. I remember seeing Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory as a kid and being scared to death of everything that happened to the kids.

 

Grandpa Spielberg's so watered down when it comes to kids. First the walky talky disaster in ET, then the totally bloodless KOTCS. His films lack any edginess whatsoever; the only example bucking this trend in recent history (since Saving Private Ryan, nearly two decades ago) is Munich, which had some seriously disturbing imagery.

 

Everything else has been at PG-13 saccharine levels of safe, and nothing on his upcoming schedule looks like breaking this trend. I certainly don't hold any hopes he'll rediscover his edgier, youthful self with Indiana Jones, despite the series' history of bloodthirsty violence and imaginative deaths.

 

Good post. To be fair though has there been anything outside of Munich (and the crappy Indy movie wiped from my perceivable plain) he's made lately which might have accommodated and justified the sort of content you're referring to?

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19 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

 

Good post. To be fair though has there been anything outside of Munich (and the crappy Indy movie wiped from my perceivable plain) he's made lately which might have accommodated and justified the sort of content you're referring to?

Robopocalypse could have been a return to "hard-pg13" edge of Minority Report and War of the Worlds but he dropped it for some reason.

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2 hours ago, Lonnegan said:

 

Good post. To be fair though has there been anything outside of Munich (and the crappy Indy movie wiped from my perceivable plain) he's made lately which might have accommodated and justified the sort of content you're referring to?

 

But that's the problem: his choice in projects. He's become very safe in his older age. There's nothing challenging about most of his projects these days, other than Montezuma (which appears to be stalled in development, despite being the most exciting film on his slate).

 

It would nice to see him really pushing himself outside of his comfort box in the twilight of his and JW's career. Just look at the diversity of Scorsese's recent works, for example.

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11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It would nice to see him really pushing himself outside of his comfort box in the twilight of his and JW's career. Just look at the diversity of Scorsese's recent works, for example.

The Kidnapping of Eduardo could be that, though it also has the potential to be another dry courtroom drama where talking heads discuss the importance of doing the right thing or something like that.

 

It's like Spielberg only makes films for his grandkids (The BFG, Tintin, War Horse) or his grandparents (War Horse, Lincoln, Bridge of Spies).  No in-between.

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2 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

But that's the problem: his choice in projects. 

 

 

I agree with the general sentiment, but I won't really begrudge Spielberg for a maturing taste and motivation which has evolved away from the sorts of movies and sensibilities I get excited about. It's not worth it, and I don't really think it's fair to anyway. He's already more than earned his keep as far as I'm concerned. 

 

When I used to see people like Alexcremers being petulant and dismissive about his own cinema heroes here because they're "not as good" as they were when Blade Runner came out I only ever come to the conclusion that it's those sorts of entitled stances which prove they were no genuine fan of the artist in the first place. 

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