Calling BS on the John Williams "Everything All At Once" Myth

[BLUMENKOHL 1,081]

I'm noticing a strong anti-"noodling" vibe here! First let me explain noodling: I interpret it to mean playing around, experimenting, or trial and error. A generally low-cost/high reward way of finding great ideas and eliminating bad ideas.

Some anonymous quotes that demonstrate this strange stance against noodling and hold John Williams above such pedestrian practice:

Williams' themes, far from being noodled and dreamt up at the piano, always have a very taut construction, and are always motivically linked from phrase to phrase (in the violin concerto example, we have the dramatic sixths and their inversion, thirds).

And to add that, John creates everything in his head and writes it down, without being able to hear it as he wrote it before its recording. The modern day people don't really write in their head, more so fiddle around with electronic toys, sythn sounds and keyboard noodling. To compare the two, its not really possible, because its not at all the same.

And just a sample of the anti-experimenting mindset:

Different coloured sound bars compiled and tabulated for the compositional machine by Lorne Balfe, who also did some noodling on a synth board.

Unleash the mind numbing and soul devouring blandness of the new raw and wriggling soundtrack on your ears!

No, I don't believe it; it's Williams at his most fungible and the kind of reactive orchestral noodling that has characterized the action scoring of his later period.

People accused Williams of "noodling" his music in War Horse, but as a whole, I find it a far more pleasant listen.

There seems to be a strange belief that great composers don't experiment. That it all comes to their genius brains in some great wave, in final form, and they just write it all down. That music written through trial and error and exploration is somehow inferior to this mythical music seemingly handed down by God.

My only explanation for this strange phenomenon is that people here are more likely to have watched "Amadeus" and mistook it for some kind of factual documentary? Because I see this belief crop-up in musical communities more than any other creative or even engineering focused community, where trial and error and iteration are generally held up as the most reliable way to do great work.

If you're learning to draw you're taught that you have to get comfortable with constantly using an eraser. When you're shooting a movie you're encouraged to do multiple takes and see what works. When you're engineering a bridge you're encouraged to prototype and test what works best before you build the whole thing. The idea in all cases is that the artist/director/engineer/architect does not miraculously know what will be best; their skill is in recognizing (via experimentation) when something works and when it doesn't. That's very different from knowing what the end results will be before starting. One process involves embracing trial and error. The other shuns it entirely, because you are only working towards a pre-defined end goal.

But for some reason there's a strange belief that when it comes to music, "gleich alles zusammen!" For those unfamiliar, it's a quote falsely attributed to Mozart (it's actually from a forged letter), where "Mozart" supposedly explained that all the music came to him all at once.

That's bullshit. The fact that he never said it is a testament to that is evidence of that. But if that's not enough, Mozart's remaining library of sketches, revisions and revisions, evidence of his musical experiments, letters describing his need for a piano to write, serve further proof.

Mozart was prolific and he worked quickly. He had an incredible memory. But there is no evidence that he did anything other than work hard, recognize when something worked, and iterate, iterate, iterate.

Fast forward to today, and a lot of JWFanners seem to be under the spell of this "Gleich Alles Zusammen!" bullshit, even going so far as to claiming that John Williams writes the same way as Mozart didn't! That he would never do something as pedestrian as work hard at getting to the music we know and love!

That's why John has expressly forbade a piano in his office, right?! Because everything comes to him all at once, and he doesn't need to sit at a piano and play things and see what works and what doesn't! Right? That's why he wrote hundreds of iterations of the Close Encounters theme, because it came to him all at once!

It's why John Williams explains his process as:

"I developed from very early on a habit of writing something every day, good or bad. There are good days, and there are less good days, but I do a certain amount of pages it seems to me before I can feel like the day has been completely served. When I am working on a film, of course, its a six-day-a-week affair, and when Im not working on films, I always like to devote myself to some piece, some musical project, that gives me a feeling that Im maybe contributing in some small way or, maybe more importantly, learning in the process."

Because he's not some noodler. He doesn't sit at the piano and play around to see how things work. He doesn't write bad music! He never has to figure out what happens next, it all just comes to him:

"For me if Im ever blocked or I feel like I dont quite know where to go at the next turn, the best thing for me is to keep writing, to write something. It could be absolute nonsense, but it will project me into the next phase of thinking. And I think if we ourselves as writers get out of the way and let the flow happen and not get uptight about it, so to speak, the muses will carry us along."

"The wonderful thing about music is it never seems to be exhausted. Every little idea germinates another one. Things are constantly transforming themselves in musical terms. So that the few notes we have, 7, 8 or 12 notes, can be morphed into endless variations, and it’s never quite over, so I think the idea of a block is something we need to work through."

He just takes the final works in his head and writes them down!

Yeah...because that's how real life works.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Great post with which I totally agree. I'm going to take time to formulate a good response.

[Darth Crossfader 583]

Great post with which I totally agree. I'm going to take time to formulate a good response.

Ditto here. I figured you would - and I'm looking forward to reading your response .

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

I would like to say initially though that noodling need not happen on a piano or any instrument. I noodle in my head, or by humming, because I don't have confidence in my improvisational abilities at the piano and find that my hands fall into undesirable patterns there. In this sense, yes, there is a goal to "hear it all in my head" before anything gets written down. But it's not as if it's appearing there out of nowhere. That's just where I build.

Music is built, and that's all there is to it. Those moments of "discovery" where it feels like you're taking dictation rather than creating it yourself do happen, but that is not the foundation of composition. If you try to make it that, you'll write all of maybe 20 minutes of music in your lifetime. But probably not even that, because those moments don't happen in a vacuum. Pieces aren't born that way. Only after you're well into it through sheer work might that sort of inspiration pay you a visit. Inspiration knows all of us and it doesn't reward slackers.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I agree with your post, Blume. However, in my quote above I'm referring not to the process but to the outcome: Partly because of the way cinematic action sequences have evolved in the latter stages of Williams's career, the narrative identity, direction, and flow of the musical accompaniment are, to my ears, often lacking. I have nothing against creativity as a quality developed and earned through painstaking trial and error.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

Generally, I agree with you, but if there's anyone capable of fulfilling the "'everything all at once' myth," it's John Williams.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Why?

[Tom 5,148]

One of the many issues in life where the practical implications for all of us are exactly the same regardless of which position is true.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

So it's not worth talking about?

What I find most offensive about this, and all similar attempts to deify John Williams, is how it cheapens what he *actually* is - a warm, sweet man, practiced in his craft, and devoted to producing something that is genuine and will resonate with others, as well as the plain old hard work that that requires. There is no mystical, divine intervention involved. His greatness is the fruit of his own effort and labor. Nothing else.

[KK 3,308]

Good points, all ones I agree with. To say Williams doesn't experiment or "noodle" is a naive notion. I think TGP puts it best:

Music is built, and that's all there is to it. Those moments of "discovery" where it feels like you're taking dictation rather than creating it yourself do happen, but that is not the foundation of composition. If you try to make it that, you'll write all of maybe 20 minutes of music in your lifetime. But probably not even that, because those moments don't happen in a vacuum. Pieces aren't born that way. Only after you're well into it through sheer work might that sort of inspiration pay you a visit. Inspiration knows all of us and it doesn't reward slackers.

Bingo. Williams has mentioned a couple of times how long it takes him to write any of one of those classic themes. He probably works off certain intervals/rhythms/units and then keeps chiselling away until he gets that perfect tune. Nothing just "comes to him".

[Hlao-roo 389]

There is no mystical, divine intervention involved. His greatness is the fruit of his own effort and labor. Nothing else.

That sounds like a whole other discussion, although I'll grant your point for the purposes of this thread (and this board).

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Allow me to phrase a bit less definitively then.

There is no relevant mystical, divine intervention involved. His greatness, as far as we can understand it and pursue it ourselves, is the fruit of his own effort and labor. Nothing else.

For all I know John might have music beamed to his head from an amorphous gibbering mass of primordial energy located not that far from Sirius. But if we want to approach everything with mouths agape, wondering at wonder, never questioning why anything is the way it is because there must be some part of it beyond our comprehension, then we can close down all message boards, for starters.

Some people want to keep Williams, and the act of composing in general, as some shrouded, mysterious thing. Speaking in hushed tones about it all. Some people think that the musically literate are robbed of something by thinking too hard about the music, or by losing their sense of wonder. But that's not the case. It's just a different sense of wonder, one less akin to what a child feels about Santa Claus and more like seeing a child born and knowing the immense strand of astronomical, biological, and social chances that led to it.

This is not a situation where you shouldn't want to know how the sausage is made. There's nothing ugly or demeaning or ordinary about it. There's just nothing hyper-romantic about it either.

And finally... I would be absolutely pleased to know that music always exists, hanging suspended in space and time waiting to be perceived, and the act of chiseling out a melody is just like putting on glasses and seeing something that's already there with greater clarity. Lest anyone think I'm sterile and devoid of any capacity for awe.

[The Train Station 8,870]

He uses the Force. It's what gives him his power. It's a musical field created by all living things. It surrounds him, it penetrates him. It binds his music together.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

John Williams doesn't doodle on his piano. His closes his eyes and the music is there, fully formed!

[Jay 39,755]

Yes!

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14401

[Incanus 5,818]

If there is anything that quickly becomes clear when reading or listening or watching John Williams interviews is that he never attributes his music to anything but hard work, a process that is sometimes easier sometimes more difficult but always a process of discovery while writing, experimenting and "noodling". He doesn't make it entirely blase though and has retained his sense of fascination, inspiration and enthusiasm in the music itself but it seems from his numerous quotes that it has always been to him an excercise, a routine and discipline and by his own words he approaches it almost monastically in seclusion and hours on end every day, especially earlier in his career when he was churning out scores at a faster pace but it can be said he probably continues it to this day. It certainly is a trial-and-error process and time and time again Williams professes that the most difficult and time consuming thing is the finding of these deceptively simple themes and he certainly doesn't do it by sitting down and waiting for the muse or divine inspiration to strike. And again without trying to trumpet JWs famous humility, he often states that he is still learning and it is in part what must drive him as there is constantly things he can find out, try to do better and learn.

And this is what I expect it to be for most creative people, part hard work, part inspiration, trying to improve yourself and your work and do things better than the last time. And it involves a lot of experimenting, reworking, starting again from scratch but it is the sustained effort is what most often leads to that final destination, not just sudden full envisioning of something in your head fully made although that can happen as well at times.

[publicist 4,647]

Though i might ask if all these laborious summations lined up here rest on only the weak case of Kehrl randomly citing 6 out of 6,0000 million posts. There are relatively few users here so naively clinging to the 'Williams is deity' notion.

[Incanus 5,818]

Though i might ask if all these laborious summations lined up here rest on only the weak case of Kehrl randomly citing 6 out of 6,0000 million posts. There are relatively few users here so naively clinging to the 'Williams is deity' notion.

Hey it got the discussion rolling!

[publicist 4,647]

No, it got the soapboxin' rolling...

[Incanus 5,818]

But we need our soapbox. Making speeches is essential!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,081]

Though i might ask if all these laborious summations lined up here rest on only the weak case of Kehrl randomly citing 6 out of 6,0000 million posts. There are relatively few users here so naively clinging to the 'Williams is deity' notion.

If something so silly comes up over and over in 8 years from different people, it must be crushed!

In all seriousness, it is at least worth discussing. If the people with this notion are really as rare as you say, then it's worth having a thread where it's obvious to see that, because it balances out any potential disproportionate loudness in opinion.

[publicist 4,647]

I'm all behind you.

[Brónach 1,307]

Great post Blume.

Music is built, and that's all there is to it. Those moments of "discovery" where it feels like you're taking dictation rather than creating it yourself do happen, but that is not the foundation of composition. If you try to make it that, you'll write all of maybe 20 minutes of music in your lifetime. But probably not even that, because those moments don't happen in a vacuum. Pieces aren't born that way. Only after you're well into it through sheer work might that sort of inspiration pay you a visit. Inspiration knows all of us and it doesn't reward slackers.

I can't do music, but I can relate to this.

[Uni 306]

"Noodling" (as you call it) is the true joy of any art form. Approaching any artistic act as though it were an assembly-line process would sap it of nearly all its ecstasy and render it a dull, mechanical procedure. Composition is no exception, and if you think Williams has wrought a lifetime of music the same way an amatuer cranks out paint-by-number pictures, then you can't have much experience with the creative process yourself.

Of course, the creative "muscle memory" he's cultivated over that same lifetime no doubt makes the process a little easier, and keeps him from getting blocked very often (which would leave him in a situation that some of us have been in—where we're not so much "noodling" as we are cranking out pounds of raw pasta in an attempt to find something useful). I'm sure it's easier for him to find the music he refers to as sounding "inevitable" these days than it was in his youth. But I can promise you he still draws satisfaction from discovering what was previously undiscovered by means of pure experimentation.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Wanted to say that today I experienced one of the great moments of payoff that noodling and chipping away leads to. A good tune!

[karelm 3,099]

Wanted to say that today I experienced one of the great moments of payoff that noodling and chipping away leads to. A good tune!

Awesome and congratulations! Now chisel away at it using your craftsmanship. Looking forward to hearing it.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

If only I could get over the crippling depression caused by the realization that it didn't occur to me in one moment of divine inspiration, like it does for John Williams. Why, I imagine even his farts make up a good melody! But I've only been doing this competently for a measly fifteen years. Maybe when I'm 83 I'll finally be able to compose on the toilet and put all this "work" bullshit behind me.

[KK 3,308]

Yes! And this place will become TGPfan!

[Wojo 2,456]

Say that without spitting.