The Hobbit Recut - The Fan Edits thread

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Don't know if it was initially PJ's idea or the studios. I'd guess the studio, but all of PJ's public comments on the change were very supportive, if not enthusiastic. And he was the producer and director, a very powerful one at that, and presumably contracted for two films, so I'd think if really wanted to object he could have. And remember that Jackson stood as much to gain financially as anyone by adding a third film, so you can draw your own conclusions from that.

 

That said, I definitely think The Hobbit would have been better with two films rather than three.  Though obviously the films have serious flaws that would still be there even with two films (just less of them).

[bollemanneke 3,337]

What flaws are you referring to other than the score debacle?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

You mean what flaws are in The Hobbit? 

There's a whole thread on that already. I started it.

Or are you referring to technical flaws?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Oh right, yes I did read your Worst Scene in the Hobbit thread if that's the one you mean, but all of those were removed in that Maple films fanedit.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Right...when I say Jackson's The Hobbit would still have flaws if it were two films, I wasn't referring to this edit, just in general that Jackson's vision of The Hobbit has problems baked into the cake.  Even if Jackson released a two film version, I have no reason to believe that some of the stupider things that Jackson included wouldn't still be there. There would just be less of them.

[crumbs 14,301]

The only re-cut of the Hobbit I'll ever bother watching is the one that replicates Jackson's original two-film narrative, removing everything that was re-shot for the sole purpose of bloating the story to form a trilogy (for example, almost everything between Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone and Smaug deciding to leave for Lake Town).

 

The best version of the film, just like LOTR before it, will not be the one that just replicates the original novel accurately. It's the nature of film adaptations; scenes have to change, the dramatic structure of a novel doesn't translate to film, characters need developed arcs, and film allows you to create powerful imagery that can't always be put into words. I have no issue with the film extrapolating from the novel and expanding upon ideas, just the multitude of scenes that serve no narrative purpose except to pad the runtime.

 

Jackson's a fine director but has inexplicably lost his ability to craft an overall narrative without the self-indulgence. What frustrates me most about this trilogy is that it contains so many scenes and moments of expert craft, but they are sadly lost amidst the sea of soap-opera-tier rubbish that feels like a lazy afterthought (pretty much because it is!) and was shot by a director who had clearly stopped caring.

 

I'm certain Jackson has final cut, yet these films feel like a Frankenstein monster of studio notes from an executive board of accountants and market researchers.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

I pretty much agree with all of that. I'm not looking for a straight up book adaption either. As I said in another post, cinema is a different best with different story telling requirements. With the exception of a couple bits in ROTK, I had no problem with any of the changes Jackson made in LOTR.

 

Crumbs, if you haven't already seen it, I'd encourage you to give Dustin's version a shot.  He even has an intermission just where Jackson was going to break for the second film. It's not perfect (there's only so much you can do given the source material), but I think it's as close to what you're describing as you're going to get. It's readily available download in multiple formats on Dustin's site, or you can just watch it online. Despite gkgiver's hatred of something he hasn't seen, everyone who I know of who has seen it finds it to be a significant upgrade.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

That's actually the only problem I have with Dustin's edit. His premise, paying lip-service to the book, is responsible for most cuts I don't agree with.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Fair enough. But I think the more bloat you cut out the closer you get to Tolkien's book, more or less. 

And I don't think he's trying to be slavish to the book. For example, I would have liked him to cut out the barrel fight altogether, but I remember reading on his site that he left it in because he thought, cinematically, the film called for an "action beat" there.

 

 

[Shoreboy 6]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

The only re-cut of the Hobbit I'll ever bother watching is the one that replicates Jackson's original two-film narrative, removing everything that was re-shot for the sole purpose of bloating the story to form a trilogy (for example, almost everything between Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone and Smaug deciding to leave for Lake Town).

 

I agree, which is why I'm kind of trying to make an edit that does that. The problem is that we armchair editors only have the material that got released, which causes big issues with this aim as some things from the 2-movie version (such as an emotionally satisfying end to film 1, which presumably was originally there after the barrel sequence and was sort-of replaced by the dubious additions to Out of the Frying Pan and the Carrock stuff) were jettisoned when the plan changed to three films.

 

(In the version I'm doing, the main storyline in AUJ does finish after the barrel sequence but in order to have a half-decent ending to the film, I've sped up Dol Guldur in order to have Sauron and Gandalf's fight as the final sequence).

 

It's tricky but fun.

[Jay 37,287]

4 minutes ago, Shoreboy said:

(In the version I'm doing, the main storyline in AUJ does finish after the barrel sequence but in order to have a half-decent ending to the film, I've sped up Dol Guldur in order to have Sauron and Gandalf's fight as the final sequence).

 

That's actually accurate to the original structure of the 2 film cut.  Gandalf was supposed to be exploring the High Fells with Radagast between the Company leaving Rivendell and him saving them in Goblintown, and he was supposed to explore Dol Guldur while the Company made their way through Mirkwood

[Shoreboy 6]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

That's actually accurate to the original structure of the 2 film cut.  Gandalf was supposed to be exploring the High Fells with Radagast between the Company leaving Rivendell and him saving them in Goblintown, and he was supposed to explore Dol Guldur while the Company made their way through Mirkwood

 

I knew about the High Fells originally being after Rivendell (I guess Edge of the Wild makes that pretty obvious) but for some reason I figured Sauron's big moment would have been a film 2 thing

[bollemanneke 3,337]

That's another problem with the Maple fan edit: the ending as it is now just doesn't really work. A happy medium between the original feel-good AUJ ending and the Bard's arrow ending which doesn't provide enough tension is necessary. Ending on Balin's question is just not working.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,287]

I don't know if the Sauron reveal was in film 1, but him meeting Thrain was.  Perhaps his scenes ending with a cliffhanger of him being attacked by Thrain, but you don't know its Thrain yet.  I dunno.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

You gotta admit, him being captured by Sauron makes for a more natural cliffhangher than him fighting some random midget we know nothing about.

[Jay 37,287]

It's possible too that PJ shot a bunch more stuff with Gandalf and the gang in Dol Guldur, but cut it all from Film 3 when he wanted to make that film really short, and then didn't restore it for the EE.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

48 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

That's another problem with the Maple fan edit: the ending as it is now just doesn't really work. A happy medium between the original feel-good AUJ ending and the Bard's arrow ending which doesn't provide enough tension is necessary. Ending on Balin's question is just not working.

But that's not the "ending" to the film, it's just the intermission...which he really didn't need to do at all. It's essentially where the disc change comes (he spreads it over two discs if you downwload the full Blu-Ray). His intention was to do a one film version. I agree it would be inappropriate if it were two films.

37 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's possible too that PJ shot a bunch more stuff with Gandalf and the gang in Dol Guldur, but cut it all from Film 3 when he wanted to make that film really short, and then didn't restore it for the EE.

It's funny because before these movies came out it was the Dol Guldur/Appendices stuff I was most excited about. Now I think it seriously detracts from the story. It was sort of exciting the first time I saw it, but it's rewatch value is low (IMO). And the Gandalf having a crush on Galadriel thing just doesn't work for me at all. The less said about Radagast and Thrain the better.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Well, now that you bring up the intermission... Why is it there? If he wanted to make two films, couldn't he just have done an entire end credits (song of the lonely mountain comes to mind for that) and then a true opening for the second half? Or doesn't the material allow that?

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Dunno, you'd have to ask him. I think maybe he was going for old-style Hollywood feel? I agree with doing it as a one film version...but that's my own sensibilities, one movie for each of the LOTR books, one movie for the Hobbit book. I kind of like the intermission (a sentiment going back to loving Lawrence of Arabia so much), but given that his Hobbit is about a long as the EE ROTK, it really wasn't necessary. To the extent intermissions aren't necessary in home cinema at all actually.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Wow, the music edits are bad. 

 

I would advise against watching this with headphones.

 

Got about an hour in and bailed. I'm happy enough with Jackson's version. I missed the Prologue and Ancient Enemy. If there's no sign of any Orcs behind them the journey actually feels slower and more laborious. There's no threat at all. That's fine in the book because of the way it's written but it doesn't work on screen. 

 

 

Skipped ahead and litteraly the most unsuitable version of Misty Mountains for the charge from Erebor. That rendition is perfect for helecopter tourist shots, not a suicidal charge against an army of orcs. Needed a more rousing rendition. The music in that scene was already perfect. You definitely didn't need it after inserting MM before the made the charge as well. The woeful music edit just adds insult to injury. 

 

Think this is actually my first time seriously giving a fan edit a go. It'll be my last. 

 

I guess it was doomed from the start though, I genuinely enjoy all three films despite their flaws.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I agree about Ancient Enemy and Prologue, but the music edits sound all right on speakers (except whenBilbo finds the ring)... Also, I think you're being a tad too critical of that MM insert. It might not be the best version, but could you have come up with an SFX-free version that did suit the scene? Regardless of its problems, its absence in both the second and third score, no matter all the intellectual explanations Shore and Adams might provide, is WRONG.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

7 minutes ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

 

 

I guess it was doomed from the start though, I genuinely enjoy all three films despite their flaws.

Well if you like all 10 hours of the originals, yeah I agree this isn't going to appeal to you. You're not who it's made for.

Disagree with you about the music edits though, they mostly sounded good to me. Though admittedly I didn't listen with headphone, and perhaps you have better ears for that kind of thing than I. This place, I imagine, can be pretty harsh on that kind of thing (many of the music edits in the actual films suck) but it's something I think the vast majority of people won't even notice.

[Bilbo 3,709]

On that MM insert you can very clearly hear the original track start Sons of Durin, fade out, MM plays, and then Sons of Durin comes back in. It's jarring. 

 

I'd have used one of the versions from Trollshaws myself. On the cd SFX free too!  But, whatever about reinserting MM into the films after AUJ, that's one scene I wouldnt have placed it in. I think the charge is perfect as is and I enjoy Sons of Durin and Thorin's theme more anyway. 

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Right. You definitely don't hear that edit on speakers.

[Bofur01 245]

You definitely do hear it on iPad speakers, and notice the decreased motion blur due to the footage being sped up so that the Misty Mountains theme is long enough to cover the whole charge.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'm sorry, but if you move hell just to insert a piece of music that wasn't intended there, to replace music that is a development of the music you edit in there, and make noticeable edits ... no. You're just plain stupid.

 

And if you don't like Sons Of Durin, there is no helping you anyway.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I didn't say I didn't like sons of Durin, I said that the thematic handling of this entire franchise is a total mess. You cannot set up a main theme in part 1 and abanndon it in part 2 and 3. You just can't.

[Guest]

Hi there, my name is Dustin and I'm the guy who made JRR Tolkiens the Hobbit, the fan edit that you've all been discussing. A user on my website told me there was a discussion going on about the edit here, so I thought I'd sign up and join in. To be honest I had no idea there was such a lively forum on a John Williams fan website! Very cool.

 

So yeah, I'm happy to field any questions, comments, complaints and/or insults about this edit. I've read through the previous comments and it looks like the edit has some supporters and detractors, which is fine. As Nick mentioned, for those of you who didn't mind the original versions of the Hobbit films, this fan edit was not made for you. I made it for people like myself who saw a great film buried underneath the bloated 9 hour trilogy that Peter Jackson gave us.

 

Since this is a music oriented site by nature, many of the criticisms seem to be directed at my changes to the score, or the general quality of the sound editing. First, I can tell you that sound editing is extremely difficult when you don't have access to discreet channels. I worked off the 5.1 mix, which made it somewhat easier, but during say an action scene where characters are yelling, swords are clashing and Shores music is at full tilt, it becomes near impossible to make a clean cut. So the result is the besr I could so with what I had to work with.

 

To the user who is mad that I inserted the Misty Mountains theme during Thorins charge...Sons of Durin was not the right piece for that scene. Misty Mountains should never have been abandoned after the first film...it was a wonderfully rousing theme akin to the Fellowship theme from LOTR. Part of me feels that Howard Shore didn't want to use it because he didn't actually write it...hence the emergence of Sons of Durin which just didn't have the same pop as MM. I only had three action cues of MM to work with for the charge, and two of them were way too short. So the result isn't perfect, but on an emotional level I feel it completes the dwarves' journey. Misty Mountains is about their home. They sing the song in Bag End. It's played multiple times during their journey...I added I soft cue when they actually lay eyes on the Lonely Mountain for the first time. The final cue comes when they literally must fight to keep their home. Its a musical arc that Howard Shore and PJ abandoned. It would be like John Williams using The Force/Luke's Theme in a New Hope and then never use it again!

 

So yeah, sorry for the long post. I'm here all day

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Great that you're here! The more MM, the better. If 5.1 complete recordings are released, will you use those? Or is your edit really finished as far as you are concerned?

[Bilbo 3,709]

Sons of Durin > Misty Mountain.

 

I'm not opposed to more MM at all but not at the expense of Sons of Durin which is perfect for the charge. Thorin abandons the quest and the gold and leads the dwarves in a charge to save their kin who are... Sons of Durin! 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

But that's another issue: what is the quest and where does it end? If it's about saving Erebor, surely defending it from Orcs is part of that quest?

[Jay 37,287]

I don't mind that MM goes away after they reach Erebor, but I dislike that in the final cuts it goes away after the Frying Pan sequence.  It should have been kept for Mirkwood and the Barrels.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When it all boils down to it I don't think people have the right to overrule the film maker and release a "supposedly" superior version.

 

You are taking the work of another director, changing it and then taking credit for something you were no part off.

 

Now if its for personal viewing, thats fine. Not unlike making your own version of a CD. Changing the order, ommiting a song or two you don't care for.

 

But to then actually release it points to an arrogance I cannot relate too. 

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Um, Stefancos... If the original trilogy hadn't been such a pathetic mess, he'd never have released it and we'd never have downloaded it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What does Star Wars have to do with this?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I should have known...

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Great that you're here! The more MM, the better. If 5.1 complete recordings are released, will you use those? Or is your edit really finished as far as you are concerned?

You must be Axxofan from Fanedit.org, right? It would be too strong a coincidence otherwise, ha. Even if 5.1 score recordings were released, I would still have to work around the mixed-up 5.1 channels of the actual film. So I would have to say it's unlikely I will release another version of the fan edit. Someone asked if I'd do a 4k version someday...mayyyybe lol.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Wow, Stefanos, way to say "Welcome to the Board."

Like it or not (and I know you don't) fan edits are a thing now. Funny that I see a lot of people do their own edits/remasters, etc. of soundtracks here and I don't see anyone complaining. Isn't that simply a way of second guessing the original artists intent?

Crikey mate...with the exception of this one fan edits aren't really my thing either, but no need to be rude to the new guy who just popped by to talk about what he did.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, bollemanneke said:

I should have known...

 

If you are referring to the Hobbit trilogy, which I guess you are (please try and avoid the term " original trilogy" for anything thats not Star Wars released please.)

 

Even if the film are a pathetic mess, it is not upto this guy to fix them. It's certainly not upto this guy (or any others) to release alternate versions of a film he didnt direct into the world. It's legally questionable, and little more then an expression of fanboy entitlement.

2 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Wow, Stefanos, way to say "Welcome to the Board."

Like it or not (and I know you don't) fan edits are a thing now. Funny that I see a lot of people do their own edits/remasters, etc. of soundtracks here and I don't see anyone complaining. Isn't that simply a way of second guessing the original artists intent?

Crikey mate...with the exception of this one fan edits aren't really my thing either, but no need to be rude to the new guy who just popped by to talk about what he did.

 

I'm not being rude at all. The point of a forum like this is to give my opinion. Which is what I did.

 

I certainly don't see why you have to be offended for the sake of anyone else? That's an even worse social problem then entitlement. " You can't say that, someone with a different opinion will be offended!"

 

As for you comparing it to edits and remasters. I generally don't like those either. There are a lot of them out there that I dislike. And what I dislike more is the attitude that often comes with them. (the guys at Varese, LLL, Intrada screwed up, but I just fixed their errors).

 

Again, for your personal listening pleasure, fine. But don't share those around.

[gkgyver 1,645]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I didn't say I didn't like sons of Durin, I said that the thematic handling of this entire franchise is a total mess. You cannot set up a main theme in part 1 and abanndon it in part 2 and 3. You just can't.

 

Shore didn't abandon it, he developed House of Durin from it.

 

And how the f do you conclude Misty Mountains is THE main theme? 

[Bilbo 3,709]

4 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

Shore didn't abandon it, he developed House of Durin from it.

 

And how the f do you conclude Misty Mountains is THE main theme? 

Because it's da most epicness 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I don't think people have the right to overrule the film maker and release a "supposedly" superior version.

 

You are taking the work of another director, changing it and then taking credit for something you were no part of...to then actually release it points to an arrogance I cannot relate too. 

Stefancos, are you on the Onering.net boards? You sound a lot like the posters there!

 

So I originally intended to make this edit for myself, just like a mix CD like you mentioned. But then I realized that so many other people were disappointed with the Hobbit films, and would always have a sour taste in their mouths about it. Then I saw inferior fan edits be released, like The Tolkien Edit that is mentioned earlier in this thread. It was horribly edited and I felt that if people were going to watch an alternate version, it should be as good as possible.  That's why I decided to share this with people online.

 

I'm not making any money off this, nor am I "taking credit" for PJ & Cos hard work. I stress to everyone who watches this that they should legally own copies of the trilogy beforehand. I just want people to see a different version of the films...one that's closer to Tolkiens original book.

 

[Wojo 2,453]

Because it's the only new theme in the first Hobbity movie that rocks. I don't hear it in the sequel score, a prime reason I never saw Hobbit DOS or TRES.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

Shore didn't abandon it, he developed House of Durin from it.

 

And how the f do you conclude Misty Mountains is THE main theme? 

The Misty Mountains theme is featured in the first film's trailer. It features prominently throughout An Unexpected Journey,  during pivotal scenes. And then it never appears again. I just find that very strange. Again, it would be like having The Force/Luke's Theme in a New Hope and then dropping it for Empire and Return. 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I am here and only here, my friend.

 

I get where you are coming from. But stressing to people they should legally own the film before downloading what is essentially a bootleg is basically BS. Like the "don't try this at home" disclaimer before a TV shows you how to make home made fireworks. It's something the lawyers insist on, but it has no basis in morality beyond that.

 

Releasing something like you have done is ultimately an act of self expression. You think you could do better then Peter Jackson and co. But you are using their work to do it.

 

Legally, ethically I just find that incredibly questionable. Even if your intent was to get closer to Tolkiens vision.

[Jay 37,287]

Welcome to the board, Goldeneye.  Did you pick your screen name after the game or the movie?

[Bilbo 3,709]

If you want to remove bloat why keep Blunt the Knives? Sure it's in the book (and I love it in PJ's film) but it's bloat. Keeping it is only being slavish to the book which is bad for an adaptation. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He named it after Ian Flemming's Jamaican house!

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Dustin, thanks for stopping by!

 

For the most part I love what you did with the edit. There are things I would have done differently (cut out the barrel fight and Smaug v. Dwarves), but otherwise I don't have many complaints. I could have used even less Alfrid (e.g. his sucking up to Bard at the lake), but as you said, you primarily created it for yourself, but I'm glad you shared it w/the rest of us.

 

Someone asked above why the Intermission? Curious about that myself.

 

Welcome to the board. For the most part I've found JWFan to be one of the friendliest and most knowledgeable genre boards out there, hope you stick around!