Bespin 8,480 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Very Interesting! BERNARD HERRMANN masterclass - CAPE FEAR re-score crocodile 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,000 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Thanks for sharing. This is great! Karol Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 I knew that the work of Bernstein was phenomenal in the remake of Cape Fear, but now I understand why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 I love Gamba's Citizen Kane re-recording. Now I skip just the aria, who was made as a joke in the movie and sung by a bad soprano. The last note is usually digitally altered in re-recordings... so... It's like the opera track in JW's Tintin... it works in the movie, less on an album! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted September 4, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, Bespin said: Now I skip just the aria, who was made as a joke in the movie and sung by a bad soprano. The last note is usually digitally altered in re-recordings... so... It's like the opera track in JW's Tintin... it works in the movie, less on an album! It's not composed as a joke. It is of course written to overwhelm the singer unless she is very strong, but it's still well written. The Gerhardt recording with Te Kanawa is stunning. Amer, bruce marshall, The Lost Folio and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted September 4, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 4, 2021 I was pretty ignorant of Herrmann in general save for a few general pieces of pop culture absorption, and remedying that was in the back of my mind for a while. This Decca Phase 4 set came at a perfect time, and, though it's "just" a reissue of all 7 albums of his released under this label, it happens to be the perfect overview and thus entry point into his works. Represented here are rerecordings/rearrangements of pieces and suites from his Hitchcock and Harryhausen collaboration strings, genres ranging from thriller to fantasy, sci-fi, romantic or adventure, rerecordings of others' works, as well as a proper OST of one of his last scores. The set is very well presented, a nice sturdy cardboard box housing a booklet with detailed album and track information and a small essay about the composer's career and more important works, and of course the discs themselves in cardboard sleeves that are CD-sized facsimiles of the original LP art, front and back - meaning original liner notes with context and track-by track descriptions are also included instead of being lost to time, forgotten or ignored, which I'm always very happy about. I enjoyed reading along, though the font obviously becomes very small and tough to read - bring a magnifier glass or take a photo and zoom in! The sound is what it is, less busy sections mostly sound pretty good, but in grander parts the brass and percussion can suffer. The performances are all very good of course. Overall the set paints the picture of an artist in his last decade not only caring about preserving and commercially presenting his own legacy (not unlike Williams revisiting his own works in concert, for new albums, and of course the remastered expanded reissues), but that of his other fellow film composers as well. I barely skimmed the tracklist and bought this set mostly blind, but I come away with a much more pleasant mental image of Herrmann than what I had before (based on throwaway remarks and anecdotes), and some killer albums to replay! Amer, Bespin, Arpy and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 I bought the Phase 4 set too, and I echo your sentiments @Holko I wish there were a few more pieces from North by Northwest - does anyone know if there was a remastered score for that film available anywhere? Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Arpy said: I wish there were a few more pieces from North by Northwest - does anyone know if there was a remastered score for that film available anywhere? Here you go: https://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/2191/North+By+Northwest The Intrada is a significant remaster over the old Rhino (fixing the rather severe faults of the old release in all tracks containing the fandango). There's also the McNeely rerecording, which I missed myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 Ah, the intrada set is long gone too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,096 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 The McNeely recording is available easily off eBay but the price tag is high but in the $60+ range. The Intrada issue is next to impossible. The really upgraded the sound and fixed the errors that were found in Rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 I can make lossless CDRs for you guys, only $19.99 + shipping per CD (Intrada or McNeely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,000 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 I managed to track down a sealed copy of McNeely's recording earlier this year for fair non-ridiculous price. I wouldn't bother tracking down Intrada because I am pretty sure a score of this stature will be reissued soon enough. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 There's often a too long interval between reissues of such old scores... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 A playlist I just realized on Spotify, inspired by the famous "Composer of the week" BBC Radio Program. Nice things to discover here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,354 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 20 hours ago, Bespin said: I love Gamba's Citizen Kane re-recording. Now I skip just the aria, who was made as a joke in the movie and sung by a bad soprano. The last note is usually digitally altered in re-recordings... so... It's like the opera track in JW's Tintin... it works in the movie, less on an album! I own that recording as well. Still I have to say, I prefer listening to the two suites, the one on the Gerhardt album plus the one on the Herrmann album. Is in my opinion the better listening experience for Citizen Kane. But the Hangover Square score in combination with the piano concerto is nice of course. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 Well the fun here, is that the cues of that version of Citizen Kane were arranged by Stephen Hogger, who returned to Herrmann's original manuscripts. It's still Herrmann's orchestrations, but maybe before a bit of the meddling done to accomodate the movie. It's just another option to listen to Citizen Kane, but I confess, the suites are pretty effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 On 20/05/2021 at 11:23 AM, Marian Schedenig said: It'll be interesting to see if the remasters are able to fix/compensate for the excessive overdrive of the versions I have. Have you been able to do a comparison of the masterings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Have you been able to do a comparison of the masterings? I haven't heard the new releases so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 When the heirs of an artist play to raise the stakes, at the end they usually harm the fame of the artist they represent, and it's always sad. I wonder who'll will be in charge after John Williams's passing? It's sure that there will be few years without new expansions. We are very lucky now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Bespin said: I wonder who'll will be in charge after John Williams's passing? Me and I'll keep everything to myself (evil laugh) Bespin and Edmilson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: I haven't heard the new releases so far. I just got the box and will be able to compare some of the contents with the Australian Eloquence releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,096 Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: I just got the box and will be able to compare some of the contents with the Australian Eloquence releases. I have those too. They are definitely improved over those.’Stunning’ is the correct word here. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,432 Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 5 hours ago, May the Force be with You said: Me and I'll keep everything to myself (evil laugh) As long as you release the complete recording sessions for The Patriot, you can keep the rest. Raiders of the SoundtrArk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Found a nice piano arrangement of Herrmann's take on Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 On 07/11/2021 at 9:53 PM, Jurassic Shark said: I just got the box and will be able to compare some of the contents with the Australian Eloquence releases. Thanks to samples from @Holko, I've been able to compare Gulliver from the new box to my old version: Conclusion: The newer version (the upper one) has been considerable normalised, but otherwise they sound the same. The parts from 50s+ sound shrill, and the big bang at ~1:23 (which sounds like The Planets and Star Wars) sounds like it almost blew out the microphones in the new one just as much as in the old one. And since the old one is far from maxed out, I guess it's really the recording and not the mastering. Jurassic Shark and Holko 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 So they just raised the volume a bit, like Decca did with their reissue of The Planets conducted by Williams. That's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bespin said: So they just raised the volume a bit, like Decca did with their reissue of The Planets conducted by Williams. That fair. No, they did not just raise the volume. They raised the volume and normalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 They added a bit of compression you mean. Decca just raised the volume for The Planets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 29 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: No, they did not just raise the volume. They raised the volume and normalized. Isn't that the same? I've been using the terms interchangeably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 Ha-hum, in Audacity, we call this tool "The Compressor ". Bevaaaaaare!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 57 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: No, they did not just raise the volume. They raised the volume and normalized. Normalizing is raising the volume and has nothing to do with compression. You can literally just revert that effect and have the old version if nothing else was done to the new version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 I always thought normalising is scaling the waveform to the maximum? I.e. using the maximum available resolution, which actually increases the dynamic range (albeit artificially). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 Anyway, I'll not buy this new Herrmann set, as I can do the compressor trick by myself in Audacity, using my old CDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 8 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: Isn't that the same? I've been using the terms interchangeably. You're right of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 11 hours ago, Bespin said: Anyway, I'll not buy this new Herrmann set, as I can do the compressor trick by myself in Audacity, using my old CDs. The new versions may have a slightly higher bit resolution if the analogue sources where scanned in hires and normalised there before downsampling to 44.1/16. Your trick would take an already downsampled 44.1/16 signal and digitally stretch it, you wouldn't re-gain any analogue data that was already lost during the downsampling process. But yes, I don't think I need the new versions either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 21 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: I always thought normalising is scaling the waveform to the maximum? I.e. using the maximum available resolution, which actually increases the dynamic range (albeit artificially). Nope, it sets the maximum amplitude of the audio file to the peak (0dB), which means just a tiny step below overmodulation. Everything else gets proportionally adapted to that. The difference between the loudest and the quietest point is not streched. It's a simple process only affecting the volume of the audio file itself. 14 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: You're right of course. And that is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 21 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: And that is wrong. It takes one to know one. 22 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Normalizing is raising the volume 21 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: Nope, it sets the maximum amplitude of the audio file to the peak (0dB), which means just a tiny step below overmodulation. Everything else gets proportionally adapted to that. The difference between the loudest and the quietest point is not streched. It's a simple process only affecting the volume of the audio file itself. You're wrong, of course. Normalization does not necessarily mean that you make the maximum amplitude as loud as possible. According to Wikipedia: Audio normalization is the application of a constant amount of gain to an audio recording to bring the amplitude to a target level (the norm). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_normalization Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: You're wrong, of course. Normalization does not necessarily mean that you make the maximum amplitude as loud as possible. According to Wikipedia: Audio normalization is the application of a constant amount of gain to an audio recording to bring the amplitude to a target level (the norm). Wikipedia is right and I'm not wrong. No need to nitpick here, the target level is usually -0dB if nothing else is applied. I don't know, why you're so zealously trying to make my statements come across as wrong, when I'm just trying to describe the usual scenario, but again: Raising the volume has nothing to do with compression. There are many people here who think the latter always goes along with the former, but that's a false assumption. If your audio track is normalized, for example, and you consider it too loud - just turn the volume of your speakers down, that's it. Many new masters have a higher volume than their predecessors to keep up with the rest of the current releases. But no loudness war is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Wikipedia is right and I'm not wrong. No need to nitpick here, the target level is usually -0dB if nothing else is applied. I don't know, why you're so zealously trying to make my statements come across as wrong, when I'm just trying to describe the usual scenario, but again: Raising the volume has nothing to do with compression. There are many people here who think the latter always goes along with the former, but that's a false assumption. If your audio track is normalized, for example, and you consider it too loud - just turn the volume of your speakers down, that's it. Many new masters have a higher volume than their predecessors to keep up with the rest of the current releases. But no loudness war is involved. Dude, you'd come across as more agreeable if you owned up to your own mistakes while correcting others. It's probably true that nowadays normalization usually raises the volume such that the maximum peak is close to the highest possible, but that was not the norm a few decades ago. 7 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Raising the volume has nothing to do with compression. ...and nobody is claiming that anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 14 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Nope, it sets the maximum amplitude of the audio file to the peak (0dB), which means just a tiny step below overmodulation. Everything else gets proportionally adapted to that. The difference between the loudest and the quietest point is not streched. It's a simple process only affecting the volume of the audio file itself. I guess we're both right, although I'm less right than what is practically relevant. Mathematically, stretching the waveform increases the dynamic range, because the difference between the volumes increases. But if you compensate by increasing your amp's volume for the non-normalised version, you effectively do the same (although possibly in an analogue way), so technically, increasing the volume (without additional compression) always increases the dynamic range, but only in an absolute sense. The relative range remains the same, obviously, in both cases. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 18 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: so technically, increasing the volume (without additional compression) always increases the dynamic range, but only in an absolute sense. The relative range remains the same, obviously, in both cases. Since range is a relative term, I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about absolute range here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 54 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Since range is a relative term, I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about absolute range here. In a way, I was talking about the range relative to the 8-bit spectrum (i.e. the distance between the low and high values from 0 to 255). Anyway… yes, the effective dynamic range remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 In other, non-sound tech-related news, what is everyone's take on the recent two re-recordings of THE BRIDE WORE BLACK and ENDLESS NIGHT? I feel like there was a lot of discussion about them up to the release, and immediately after, but very little since. It kinda died out. I love them, although they're a tad on the long side (need a few minutes' worth of whittling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said: In a way, I was talking about the range relative to the 8-bit spectrum (i.e. the distance between the low and high values from 0 to 255). Anyway… yes, the effective dynamic range remains the same. Ah yes. That's the linear vs. decibel difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Normalizing is raising the volume of an entire track or album by the same amount. Dynamic Range Compression is raising the volume of the quieter parts to have less of a difference from them to the louder parts. Bespin was wrong above when he said normalization and compression were the same thing. I think everyone else knew the difference, but argued about semantics anyway. Marian Schedenig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 I never said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,096 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 in any case the new set sounds greatly improved and stunning. And if you have a good Hi Fi system then the results will be even better (warts and all) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,354 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 12/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, Thor said: In other, non-sound tech-related news, what is everyone's take on the recent two re-recordings of THE BRIDE WORE BLACK and ENDLESS NIGHT? I feel like there was a lot of discussion about them up to the release, and immediately after, but very little since. It kinda died out. I love them, although they're a tad on the long side (need a few minutes' worth of whittling). I used to listen to ENDLESS NIGHT really a lot. I wrote something in the "Last older score you listened to" thread about it. At first I was irritated by that weird synthesizer sound, which is in a way its actual purpose. But it is a great mixture of beauty, drama and tension. The vocalize version of the song sums it up perfectly at the end. THE BRIDE WORE BLACK is not that accessible to me. First of all, I had an issue with the CD. It was heavily damaged from the very beginning, so it was impossible to listen to the first seven tracks. I got my money back, but the rest did not actually motivate me to re-order the disc. I am listening to it right now. I remember, that for my taste there was too much wedding march in it. But I don't hear that now. Oh, now I hear it. I cannot pay that much attention now anyway. But I will probably give it a few more listens, I think. Thanks for the reminder. Thor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 5 hours ago, Jay said: Bespin was wrong I like that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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