Who should take over on STAR WARS after Williams is gone?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm not a musician so I can't relate. Even so, if you judged composers purely on whether or not you want to learn how they created something, I can't imagine you'd like very many.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I'm not a musician so I can't relate. Even so, if you judged composers purely on whether or not you want to learn how they created something, I can't imagine you'd like very many.

Film composers? Not purely, no. Dramatic effectiveness is still key, as is entertainment value to a lesser extent, but you talked about whether or not a piece of music is interesting. That's a whole other kettle of fish, and as musician that translates to purely musical qualities. And even with Zimmer and his 40% complete scores that leave out synth and soloist prelays, I still want to find out how he voices the brass choirs in his wall of sound, or how he dovetails woodwind ostinati.

With GIa... there's a craft, but not much artistry.

[publicist 4,643]

The old failure of communication on film music MB's: one half watches too many movies - often the same ones again and again - and feels attached to movie scores by sheer association (without being too incriminating about actual musical qualities), the other half wouldn't give a shit about watching, say, KRULL, because the musical work as released is a musical treasure trove that can be listened to and analyzed and would possibly only be spoiled by a lame movie.

IMHO, while i see the point in scores being written for the movie first and foremost i just can't relate why it's necessary to listen to superficial movie music JUST because it is attached to some current commercial movie. And that is, when i look at the choices discussed here, the main problem: instead of finding out about great composers that might live and write today, we get a round-up of the same-same obvious choices, namely currently successful Hollywood composers. But those are only very rarely called upon delivering great charismatic music today and many of them couldn't really - they got other things on their plate to worry about (not being thrown out for being too distinctive, for starters).

[Incanus 5,713]

I would like to see those distinct voices getting assignments like a new Star Wars picture out of the blue. If we can't think of them here, what hope there is for the people who make these films to suddenly discover them, considering they are so dangerously distinctive?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

The old failure of communication on film music MB's: one half watches too many movies - often the same one's again and again - and feels attached to movie scores by sheer association (without being too incriminating about actual musical qualities), the other half wouldn't give a shit about watching, say, KRULL, because the musical work as released is a musical treasure trove that can be listened to and analyzed and would possibly only be spoiled by a lame movie.

IMHO, while i see the point in scores being written for the movie first and foremost i just can't relate why it's necessary to listen to superficial movie music JUST because it is attached to some current commercial movie. And that is, when i look at the choices discussed here, the main problem: instead of finding out about great composers that might live and write today, we get a round-up of the same-same obvious choices, namely currently successful Hollywood composers. But those are only very rarely called upon delivering great charismatic music today and many of them couldn't really - they got other things on their plate to worry about (not being thrown out for being too distinctive, for starters).

Yep.

I would like to see those distinct voices getting assignments like a new Star Wars picture out of the blue. If we can't think of them here, what hope there is for the people who makes these films to suddenly discover them, considering they are so dangerously distinctive?

The hope is for the people making the films to be discerning enough to find them. A flimsy hope, perhaps, but still.

Anyway, of the options in this poll, let's give it to Powell.

[A24 4,326]

'Originality' has very little to do with Zimmer changing the world. Does anybody know the main reason why Hans Zimmer is so successful?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Because his music is easy to understand. Both for film makers and the audience. It has a pop music sensibility that's very appealing.

[A24 4,326]

Bravo, Steef!

Indeed, the audience doesn't listen to classical composers at home so music based on classical music is the last thing they want to hear when they go to the movies.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Giacchino sounds nothing like Williams or Goldsmith. The only obvious thing he shares with them is his love of the orchestra. Just because a Composer makes film choices that are similar to previous composers, doesn't automatically make him sound like them. Not even in scores where he uses their music like JW and Trek, does he sound like them. He sounds like Michael Giacchino. He puts a distinct sound to all his scores that can only be from him. Inside Out shares no resemblance to Williams. UP is nothing like Goldsmith. Giacchino doing films that have iconic music already in place, seems to make people believe he is trying to be them. He is working on projects he loves, not trying to be the gods of Composing. He's not that arrogant or vacant of identity.

I don't like his music because of the technical ability of all this special lingo. I connected to his music simply in the emotional way. I liked what I heard. Simple. I have never had any desire to learn all the musical lingo or learn how to read music even, because then I would naturally judge music based on technical aspects rather than an emotional connection.

Anyway, enough of defending my love for Giacchino's music. Has anyone considered Fernando Velazquez? He's an up and comer, and his The Impossible Score was breathtaking, as too was his horror stuff in Mama.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Giacchino sounds nothing like Williams or Goldsmith.

I agree.

[publicist 4,643]

This is not accurate. There are cues in his children scores that sound very much like Williams or occasionally Goldsmith/Horner, i. e. DINNER RUSH from RATATOUILLE or "Escape from the Mountain" in UP (not to speak of MOH or SUPER 8). There are tons of orchestral gestures Giacchino would have never come up with without his predecessors.

While this may not be outright plagiarism i find it hard to believe that anyone could NOT hear the connection.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Maybe lush, lyrical romanticism all sounds about the same, no matter who wrote it.

[leeallen01 2,133]

This is not accurate. There are cues in his children scores that sound very much like Williams or occasionally Goldsmith/Horner, i. e. DINNER RUSH from RATATOUILLE or "Escape from the Mountain" in UP (not to speak of MOH or SUPER 8). There are tons of orchestral gestures Giacchino would have never come up with without his predecessors.

While this may not be outright plagiarism i find it hard to believe that anyone could NOT hear the connection.

Of course, I forgot Williams and Goldsmith invented music. And they obviously aren't a product of those who came before them.

[publicist 4,643]

Oh...now we're curious: what are these precious sources Giacchino draws from while courageously outstripping the very recognizable styles of his musical youth heroes? A splash of Stravinsky, perhaps? A tiny fragment from Gershwin or Ives? A muscular nod to Webern or Varése?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

John Williams is reading and cackling.

[KK 3,307]

If Drax knew the true originsof that story, he would fall asleep by BOREDOM

This is not accurate. There are cues in his children scores that sound very much like Williams or occasionally Goldsmith/Horner, i. e. DINNER RUSH from RATATOUILLE or "Escape from the Mountain" in UP (not to speak of MOH or SUPER 8). There are tons of orchestral gestures Giacchino would have never come up with without his predecessors.

While this may not be outright plagiarism i find it hard to believe that anyone could NOT hear the connection.

Of course, I forgot Williams and Goldsmith invented music. And they obviously aren't a product of those who came before them.

Oh come on. I'm not denying that there is a "Giacchino sound", just that the traits that set him apart aren't particularly interesting when it comes to his big blockbuster writing. The scores you mentioned like Inside Out are exactly the kind of scores I think his compositional traits are more suited for, not some grand Star Wars-style space opera as many think he is destined to write. But you can't deny he has built a career by writing in the tradition of the composers he grew up listening to (namely Gershwin, Williams, Goldsmith, etc). And ultimately when he goes for that sound, he sounds like a far more watered-down version of the sources he draws from.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

If Drax knew the true originsof that story, he would fall asleep by BOREDOM

If it's from that Tolkien crap, his books needed BloodBoal to edit them.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Oh...now we're curious: what are these precious sources Giacchino draws from while courageously outstripping the very recognizable styles of his musical youth heroes? A splash of Stravinsky, perhaps? A tiny fragment from Gershwin or Ives? A muscular nod to Webern or Varése?

A healthy dash of Michael Giacchino.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No man is an island Lee.

[Quintus 5,399]

What?

[publicist 4,643]

Oh...now we're curious: what are these precious sources Giacchino draws from while courageously outstripping the very recognizable styles of his musical youth heroes? A splash of Stravinsky, perhaps? A tiny fragment from Gershwin or Ives? A muscular nod to Webern or Varése?

A healthy dash of Michael Giacchino.

[leeallen01 2,133]

No man is an island Lee.

You miss my point. I've said countless times here, many times today even, that all Composers are a product of those that came before them. But what makes me interested in certain composers, is when their voice is familiar, but different. Like Williams is with Korngold, to name one, and also from his Jazz roots. People keep telling me to explain my opinions of Giacchino, then they tell me to stop talking about Giacchino. I've never once said or implied that he is separate from all others. He is heavily influenced by his idols, as we all are, and everyone is. I'm not denying his sometimes obvious approach that mirrors his idols, I am saying that he is different enough and singular in his own approach, that he continues to interest me. If he doesn't interest you, then okay. That wont lessen my love for his music. So that's that then. End of the Giacchino war.

I'd like to add to the point of 'sounding like your idols,' and discovering your own musical voice through them as you advance in your career.

This is a quote from one of my idols and my favourite Composer, James Newton Howard. - "I would say my best advice is to copy the people that are the best, that are the greatest, in the beginning, and see how they did it and then as that process eventually becomes, one owns that process at a certain point. I remember, Jerry Goldsmith was my hero for years and years and years. And, I think my scores sounded a lot like Jerry Goldsmith for a long time, and you could do a lot worse, so that's okay with me. Then eventually, the more I did it, the more I gained in confidence, my own voice would start to emerge."

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Mason Bates or Eric Whitacre. Or Jeremy Soule.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

It also doesn't help Giacchino's case that he tends to have bad mixing that makes his orchestra sound small. This has never been an issue with Williams, Goldsmith or even Morricone -who's had to work around some actually small and bad orchestras.

[Marcus 390]

It also doesn't help Giacchino's case that he tends to have bad mixing that makes his orchestra sound small. This has never been an issue with Williams, Goldsmith or even Morricone -who's had to work around some actually small and bad orchestras.

It's not a matter of mixing, it's how the scores were written, and (actually to a lesser extent) orchestrated. There's an inherent "thinness" to much of Giacchino's writing in general. How one responds to it is of course a matter of taste & opinion.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Yeah, but it does also have to do with the recording. It's another case of emulation by him: there's a sonic aesthetic he wants his music to fit into, but it's a dated one, and didn't exist originally by design, so modern efforts to force and match it just sound flat.

[Marcus 390]

Well, if it's very close-miked, the dryness won't exactly help. Still, there's a sense of scale curiously absent from all of what I've heard of Giacchino's music.

It has to do with cluttered unisons, low level of orchestral detail/activity, and non-resonant voicings.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

non-resonant voicings.

Yes exactly! This is the biggest problem, I suspect, especially in the lower register. Some very "dead" sonorities happening there.

[Quintus 5,399]

there's a sense of scale curiously absent from all of what I've heard of Giacchino's music.

Indeed. I find it problematic in his 'grand' scores.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

Sometimes it works, like in The Incredibles which despite being a pastiche job is deliciously jazzy and sounds exactly like it should sound, both in terms of orchestrations and mixing. Particularly The Incredits, which if I'm not mistaken was written by Tim, right? Still, it's brilliant and works wonderfully in that particular case.

MOH seems to be nicely orchestrated and mixed too, but in the case of scores like John Carter and JW, in my opinion, it ends up hurting the overall picture, musically.

[leeallen01 2,133]

I think the most talented Composers right now, that I want to see rocket to the top of the best projects out there, are Bear McCreary, Fernando Velazquez, Murray Gold, and Abel Korzeniowski.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Sometimes it works, like in The Incredibles which despite being a pastiche job is deliciously jazzy and sounds exactly like it should sound, both in terms of orchestrations and mixing. Particularly The Incredits, which if I'm not mistaken was written by Tim, right? Still, it's brilliant and works wonderfully in that particular case.

MOH seems to be nicely orchestrated and mixed too, but in the case of scores like John Carter and JW, in my opinion, it ends up hurting the overall picture, musically.

He may have arranged it, but it's all Giacchino.

there's a sense of scale curiously absent from all of what I've heard of Giacchino's music.

Indeed. I find it problematic in his 'grand' scores.

You're all deaf!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

That still sounds small and non-resonant to me (especially the contrabasses), but then it was a small orchestra, so hard to judge.

BTW, the Incredits was composed by Giacchino but arranged and orchestrated by Gordon Goodwin. For that reason it has a richer sound to the rest of the film's cues - which were orchestrated but not arranged by Tim Simonec.

[Bayesian 1,359]

Only one choice would be acceptable to these ears -- Danny Elfman.

Fortunately, JW is going to live to be a centenarian and we won't have to worry about this question unless they're up to Episode 16 or something by then.

[KK 3,307]

I think the most talented Composers right now, that I want to see rocket to the top of the best projects out there, are Bear McCreary, Fernando Velazquez, Murray Gold, and Abel Korzeniowski.

Meh, wouldn't want any of those guys touching Star Wars actually. Velazquez and Korzeniowski lack the musical diversity required for a project of this scale, and I'm not a fan of McCreary.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I think the most talented Composers right now, that I want to see rocket to the top of the best projects out there, are Bear McCreary, Fernando Velazquez, Murray Gold, and Abel Korzeniowski.

Meh, wouldn't want any of those guys touching Star Wars actually. Velazquez and Korzeniowski lack the musical diversity required for a project of this scale, and I'm not a fan of McCreary.

Bear is interesting and I'd like to see him set loose. The S.H.I.E.L.D program is decently scored. Never heard much by Velazquez and Gold. And you know my feelings on Abel....

[KK 3,307]

I've heard some of Gold's stuff for Doctor Who, and it's fun guilty-pleasure orchestral fluff, though the scores have been less inspired with each new season. But again, for Star Wars? I don't know what else he's done, but he hasn't shown himself capable of something of that scale.

As for Bear, while I can admire some of the inventive things he's done, from what I've heard, his sound is just not for me. Haven't watched S.H.I.E.L.D. Any recommendations Grey?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I think the most talented Composers right now, that I want to see rocket to the top of the best projects out there, are Bear McCreary, Fernando Velazquez, Murray Gold, and Abel Korzeniowski.

Meh, wouldn't want any of those guys touching Star Wars actually. Velazquez and Korzeniowski lack the musical diversity required for a project of this scale, and I'm not a fan of McCreary.

Bear is interesting and I'd like to see him set loose. The S.H.I.E.L.D program is decently scored. Never heard much by Velazquez and Gold. And you know my feelings on Abel....

What are they again?

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

The problem with the "smaller" composers getting this gig is that they wouldn't be able to stand against what the executives command. At least Powell has a strong personality and a no-nonsense attitude and maybe will be able to still do his own thing, but a lightweight against all that pressure and executive notes... I dunno, doesn't seem like they would stand a chance.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I think the most talented Composers right now, that I want to see rocket to the top of the best projects out there, are Bear McCreary, Fernando Velazquez, Murray Gold, and Abel Korzeniowski.

Meh, wouldn't want any of those guys touching Star Wars actually. Velazquez and Korzeniowski lack the musical diversity required for a project of this scale, and I'm not a fan of McCreary.

Bear is interesting and I'd like to see him set loose. The S.H.I.E.L.D program is decently scored. Never heard much by Velazquez and Gold. And you know my feelings on Abel....

What are they again?

Eh....

[KK 3,307]

I will concede that I do like Abel's knack for orchestration despite his somewhat redundant musical vocabulary. He usually works with smaller ensembles and less orchestral activity and yet achieves a much wider emotional breadth than a lot of what comes from Giacchino.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I liked what I've heard from Abel so far (Romeo & Juliet). Very simple but also very emotional.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I probably haven't given him a fair shake. What do you think might be up my alley? And as for Bear recommendations, other than that show, I've not heard much. It just feels like he's got a handle on what he's doing.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

[KK 3,307]

I liked what I've heard from Abel so far (Romeo & Juliet). Very simple but also very emotional.

Eh...not a fan of that one. But again, even there, the actual content is very simple, but is orchestrated cleverly to nail that sweeping sound.

I probably haven't given him a fair shake. What do you think might be up my alley? And as for Bear recommendations, other than that show, I've not heard much. It just feels like he's got a handle on what he's doing.

Abel has his bag of tired tricks like any typecasted composer in the "pretty drama" genre, but I do think he has a knack for colour on his inspired days, which is what made his sound so appealing for film music fans when he got into the game. Try these:

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Well those are nice.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

Has Thomas Newman ever tackled a score like this? He worked on Return of the Jedi so he must know practically more than anybody else.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Like Star Wars? The Good German is probably as close as you'll get.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Kevin Kiner does too.