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Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker (JJ Abrams 2019)


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4 minutes ago, Arpy said:

It's not mislabelling when everyone knows it was at the discretion of the directors in how their stories were told and what kind of films they would be.

 

We wouldn't be in this turgid position if Abrams had an entire trilogy unto himself, or the same for Johnson, but because one had to pass the torch to the other with the third director ousted (rightfully so), it was a shitshow.

With a watchful Lucas!

The issue is not Abrams direction but his script.

Who said that for the sequel trilogy the scripts should be written by the respective directors?

 

And one thing that Abrams and Terrio obviously failed at, something very basic that you learn at building a story in collaboration with others, is something that I learned at doing some little hobby improvisation theatre. You have to embrace everything that your co-player brings into the story. You can kill it, but you cannot deny it. And if it should be a good story this killing even needs some good justification. 

And this crazy ignoring of plotlines from the predecessor and taking new directions, which started in TLJ destroyed the whole trilogy. Even though in TLJ that was not the biggest issue of the movie. From that one you would at least be able to create a good, entertaining 40 minutes cut containing the interesting parts.

 

I am afraid, from TROS the good parts would not fill more than 3 minutes. And I even don't know what that should be. Maybe the falcon chase scene at the beginning. That's nice to watch.

 

 

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Anyone who moans about JW's sequel scores lacking new themes, or missing Duel of the Fates type music, really doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.

They're both competently made films.  And they're both failures. Perhaps in different ways, but failures nonetheless.

 

And at least The Rise of Skywalker failed trying to be a Star Wars film, rather than a director putting his own ego above the needs of the story in order try to "subvert expectations".

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21 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I didn't mind The Rise of Skywalker. Of course it's deeply flawed, like all the sequels, but I thought it was a better Star Wars film than The Last Jedi.

 

....on what criteria?

 

10 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

And at least The Rise of Skywalker failed trying to be a Star Wars film, rather than a director putting his own ego above the needs of the story in order try to "subvert expectations".

 

How was "subverting expectations" about his ego? Couldn't it simply have been about what he thought was best for the story? I don't think The Last Jedi is perfect by any means, but IMO all the Luke Skywalker "subvert expectations" stuff that people like you are so very upset about was the saving grace of the movie, and though he didn't agree with the direction taken with his character, Mark Hamill gave an amazing performance.

 

It surprises me that so many people expected to discover Luke to be practically the same as he was at the end of the original trilogy. I mean, 1) that's not as interesting and 2) it doesn't make sense with where JJ Abrams left the story -- why would THAT Luke totally disappear and abandon everyone? Luke HAS to have fallen from grace, cut himself off from the Force. It's the only thing that makes any sense of his absence in The Force Awakens. (Maybe you have a better idea?) And Rian Johnson turned that into a beautiful arc over the course of the film. That and the Kylo/Rey stuff was IMO all great, I would say even the best of the sequel trilogy.

 

It's Poe and especially Finn that were done dirty by Rian Johnson, and none of that had to do with the subverting expectations which seems to bother so many. It just felt like Side Quest: The Movie. At least Poe had some character development and an arc. Finn...got a bit more invested in the Resistance? I'm in the group of people who thinks that Finn just should've been killed off at the end of this movie; it would have completed his arc within it. But after the setup his character got in The Force Awakens even that would have been a disappointment. And then The Rise of Skywalker wastes Finn and Poe even more thoroughly.

 

Yavar

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When TLJ is good, is damn good. Everything about the main trio (Rey-Kylo-Luke) is excellent, but the movie has to cut every now and then to the supporting cast, who add nothing to the movie.

 

If TLJ had focused mostly on Rey, Kylo and Luke it would have been FANTASTIC.

 

TROS, on the other hand, doesn't have any stuff that stands out. It's just mediocre and boring, boring, boring.

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3 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

But after the setup his character got in The Force Awakens even that would have been a disappointment.

TFA itself already disappoints after his initial setup. He just flips and instantly murders his old mates without a second thought, the movie introduces an interesting concept with the humanity of the troopers and throws it away immediately.

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5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

"subvert expectations" stuff that people like you are so very upset about

 
“People like you”? And who’s “very upset”? 

 

I just made a comment that I thought The Rise of Skywalker was a better Star Wars film. An opinion which apparently upsets a lot of people.
 

Must have have hit pretty close to the mark!

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1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

When TLJ is good, is damn good. Everything about the main trio (Rey-Kylo-Luke) is excellent, but the movie has to cut every now and then to the supporting cast, who add nothing to the movie.

 

Thing is, Finn wasn't supposed to be "supporting cast" -- in The Force Awakens he was an equal main character to Rey! He's the one who first picks up that lightsaber in the forest! But I agree, in TLJ he goes from being more of a...Scotty, in Star Trek parlance? And in The Rise of Skywalker that gets even worse, and he pretty much goes full Chekov...

 

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

TROS, on the other hand, doesn't have any stuff that stands out. It's just mediocre and boring, boring, boring.

 

For me there's bad stuff that stands out (the Emperor despite McDiarmid having fun again is so dumb) and there's also some good stuff that stands out, namely Kylo Ren again -- the only character decently well handled through all three films. The scene with Harrison Ford I found really affecting and well acted.

 

1 hour ago, Holko said:

TFA itself already disappoints after his initial setup. He just flips and instantly murders his old mates without a second thought, the movie introduces an interesting concept with the humanity of the troopers and throws it away immediately.

 

Yeah, TFA has a lot of good stuff but also a ton of problems, like this. And I love Harrison Ford in the movie but the Rathtars sequence was really really dumb. And don't get me started on the planet that can shoot a big gun across the galaxy and hit planets in other solar systems and blow them up within minutes. JJ Abrams and science do not mix at all. And I get that Star Wars is more fantasy than science fiction, but that's just a few steps too far into ridiculous.

 

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

 “People like me”? And who’s “very upset”?

 

You wrote,

Quote

they're both failures. Perhaps in different ways, but failures nonetheless.

 

And at least The Rise of Skywalker failed trying to be a Star Wars film, rather than a director putting his own ego above the needs of the story in order try to "subvert expectations".

 

You're telling me you're not upset when you write about a director "putting his own ego about the needs of the story"? And "people like you" simply refers to people who are upset by Rian Johnson's "subverting expectations" in The Last Jedi, that's all.

 

Why don't you tell me what the "needs of the story" for The Last Jedi were, based on where The Force Awakens left things, and how you would have had Johnson do an arc for Luke that met your expectations/definition of what a "Star Wars movie" is?

 

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

I just made a comment that I thought The Rise of Skywalker was a better Star Wars film. An opinion which apparently upsets a lot of people.

Must have have hit pretty close to the mark!

 

I'm just simply curious for you to define what a "Star Wars film" IS, exactly, and on what criteria The Rise of Skywalker is a "better Star Wars film" than The Last Jedi. I'm not as invested as you seem to think though, to be honest, so if you don't feel like expanding on that assertion then don't worry about it. :) 

 

Personally I'm just grateful that for all its messy faults, the sequel trilogy as a whole (yes, even The Rise of Skywalker) was SO much more watchable and enjoyable than the ghastly prequel trilogy, with a familiar lived-in universe (much of the time, anyway... the gambling planet in The Last Jedi felt more like prequel territory at times). I'm not opposed to watching The Rise of Skywalker again, but I never ever want to rewatch any of the prequel films (and I frankly can't understand the people who do, unless they were kids when it came out and it's just nostalgia factor).

 

Yavar

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6 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

Rise of Skywalker is basically the movie that I was always imagining Force Awakens would be like when I heard JJ Abrams was doing Star Wars. I was surprised when he turned out a relatively straightforward Episode 7 with imo his most measured and attentive filmmaking...many shots and moments that take their time, a cleaner aesthetic overall.

 

Rise of Skywalker just feels like a regression in ways where I felt like Force Awakens showed a lot of growth as a director, especially when I think of the first act of TFA or patient moments like Kylo Ren's interrogation of Rey or the long silent closeups in his final encounter with Han. The story overall, is simple and told with economy. I always feel like the first act of Force Awakens is the best of JJ Abrams. He pulled a nice magic trick establishing four -- five, really, counting BB-8 -- easily distinguishable sketches of new characters in 30 minutes with sensitivity and humor, something he no doubt figured out from television, and with more focused visual storytelling than I've seen from him. Also as a JWFan, I appreciated his nod to Lucas's tradition of an entirely wordless and musically driven final sequence, something that every other Disney Star Wars movie has ignored.

 

The thing about JJ's vision and execution of Rise that just puts me off is his return to a more hyperactive and nervous energy which made an unfortunate combo to me with a more tangled screenplay. He even exponentially increased the lens flare quotient. The two moments that stick out to me most positively in the way that I appreciated from the best of TFA and TLJ are the scene between Han and Ben, and Rey hearing the Jedi voices. 

 

That said I do agree that it's not really an unentertaining movie in the way that the prequels have those long stretches of dead air, but does remind me of them in that it is weirdly compelling primarily because it makes me feel like I might be insane. It seems like there are people who put Last Jedi in that category too which I can pretty well understand by now, though I still think that one's just straight up good for the most part. I enjoy grumpy Luke and Canto Bight, whatevs.

 

This is probably the most intelligent breakdown of Abrams' work on TFA and ROS I've seen on the internet. lol. I agree wholeheartedly. 

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8 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Thing is, Finn wasn't supposed to be "supporting cast" -- in The Force Awakens he was an equal main character to Rey! He's the one who first picks up that lightsaber in the forest! But I agree, in TLJ he goes from being more of a...Scotty, in Star Trek parlance? And in The Rise of Skywalker that gets even worse, and he pretty much goes full Chekov...

 

 

This is true, I hadn't thought about it. The way the movies developed, it ended up being basically Rey and Kylo's story, which again, is the best part of the movies -particularly Kylo who for some reason seemed way easier to write than anybody else.

 

8 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

For me there's bad stuff that stands out (the Emperor despite McDiarmid having fun again is so dumb) and there's also some good stuff that stands out, namely Kylo Ren again -- the only character decently well handled through all three films. The scene with Harrison Ford I found really affecting and well acted.

 

 

You're right again, however a two minute scene (no matter how well acted and emotional it is) doesn't excuse the rest. It's like the post-90's Spielberg action syndrome: he started creating scenes and from there build a movie, which is why they all have great SCENES and if you look at them individually sure, they're great. But look at the movie as a whole and it's quite a different matter.

 

In a semi-defense of Abrams, I don't know how much creative control he actually had. Sure, he co-wrote the script but still, it could have been written with very precise and clear instructions from the higher authorities. If the Marvel universe has showed us anything, is that the directors are mere hired guns with little to no creative control over the movie they're making. And I doubt it's any different in Disney, which is basically the same thing as Marvel.

 

Spielberg probably backed out of Indy 5 for this very reason. 

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If JJ was director/writer/producers for all the movies I don’t think the final outcome would’ve changed significantly, in fact it could easily be worse.

 

People who think RJ totally went against JJ’s ideas have bought into the post-backlash TLJ narrative. Before that not only did JJ himself say he wish he had written the script, but his friend Greg Grunberg corroborated this and said that he never usually says that. JJ’s response you can chalk up to marketing but Greg wasn’t even involved with TLJ so he had zero obligation which is why I think it’s genuine. Especially considering that both pre and post backlash JJ has been quite consistent in his opinion of TLJ and it not going against what he intended.

 

There was a plan for the Sequel Trilogy from the start, it just wasn’t a good one. I have reason to believe it was JJ himself that helmed the throwing out of Lucas’ story treatments in favour of a soft reboot that seeks to recreate scenes from the OT but in a different order - and that’s what all of the movies pretty much do. Plus if Rian had really diverged from this plan so significantly then KK would’ve undoubtedly stepped in as it’s pretty clear she has a penchant for that given her track record.

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1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

There are few things in this world I'd less rather watch than YouTubers spending hours complaining about Star Wars. And this is coming from someone who recently watched a 5-hour video on someone complaining about Doctor Who.

I saw that video! Pretty comprehensive breakdown on why the Chibnall era so far has fallen flat

3 hours ago, toothless said:

 

 

 

 


 

Just watch these videos (subtitles in English).

 

Can I get more context of what these videos are about?

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7 minutes ago, Chewy said:

This guy tries to explain why The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi are bad Star Wars movies.

 

And by the way, this dude doesn't like JW scores for the new episodes, he keeps saying there are no new themes in them. That must be a reason to not bother watching those.

Ah okay so it’s just a critique of the movies. I was hoping it would take a look more at the context and behind the scenes of production since that’s what interests me more

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Hot take: none of the sequels really feel like Star Wars movies.

TLJ is at least a well made movie.  TFA starts promising but does not deliver.  And TROS is a bad fanfiction given millions of dollars.

 

The scores are all nice, though.

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I think TFA feels like a Star Wars movie. Unfortunately, it was largely a movie we'd already seen when it came out.

 

TLJ is a visually beautiful movie that exists only to setup expectations and then veer wildly off into some other direction, like it was written by a 5 year old. It does this repeatedly throughout its runtime, sometimes every few minutes. There's rarely anything worthwhile about the subversions either, but apparently being surprised every 5 minutes is enough to make a lot of morons happy. Some fans say the story was really deep and "spiritual." I don't know what they're smoking. It's just endless bait and switches. Finally, Luke's here to be the hero! Lol nope. Bum bum bum Leia died! Or maybe not. Is... Is Luke Skywalker bad now?? Psych! Of course not. Wait, is Kylo becoming good? No, because nothing ever changes in this movie and every time the stakes could be raised, they're immediately lowered again. Doesn't feel like Star Wars at all. Feels more like the godawful Hobbit trilogy than anything.

 

TROS lives in this weird space between the 2 previous entries. It has moments that conjure up the warmhearted and humorous swashbuckling feel of TFA and the original Star Wars, but it also has the garbage ADHD Fast and the Furious level storytelling of TLJ, plus some truly abominable fan service cringe. Definitely feels more like Star Wars than TLJ, but it's still a pale imitation of the real thing, even compared to the shitty prequels.

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Goddamit, I still like The Force Awakens. Its so energetic! And I also like - albeit less than The Force Awakens - The Last Jedi.

 

The Rise of Skywalker - no...

 

I like the former two as individual pieces, though: I think the very idea of a sequel trilogy - of any kind - was flawed from the outset.

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10 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

There are few things in this world I'd less rather watch than YouTubers spending hours complaining about Star Wars. And this is coming from someone who recently watched a 5-hour video on someone complaining about Doctor Who.

Hahahahaha I can get that 😂

 

8 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Ah okay so it’s just a critique of the movies. I was hoping it would take a look more at the context and behind the scenes of production since that’s what interests me more

It does. Quite extensively. But it looks like some here like to sum everything up without actually looking at the video. Internet in a nutshell 🙂

 

BTW the guys says he’s not a Star Wars fan but he’s not a hater either. He highlights the good and the bad of the movies in terms of production, cinematography, scenario etc etc. It’s a former student in cinema school and is far from your overall YouTube critique. 
 

Now I disagree with what he says about JW score. But I don’t see how that disqualifies the rest of the video.

 

As for the two films. He does not say they are bad. Not entirely far from it :) 

 

8 hours ago, Chewy said:

This guy tries to explain why The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi are bad Star Wars movies.

 

And by the way, this dude doesn't like JW scores for the new episodes, he keeps saying there are no new themes in them. That must be a reason to not bother watching those.


« Keeps saying » 😂 It’s literally 20 seconds in the 2 hours video but okay. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

 

PS: he’s obviously wrong about JW score but if you can go past the character he is playing in its videos, you’ll see it’s a deep analysis and it’s far more subtle than good/bad movies. 

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35 minutes ago, toothless said:

« Keeps saying » 😂 It’s literally 20 seconds in the 2 hours video but okay. 

I'm referring to his other videos about the new trilogy, the ones he makes right after the movies come out. There is always a little commentary about how the music "was not memorable" or "was recycled".

 

And by the way, that guy doesn't like Desplat either :banghead:

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5 hours ago, toothless said:

Hahahahaha I can get that 😂

 

It does. Quite extensively. But it looks like some here like to sum everything up without actually looking at the video. Internet in a nutshell 🙂

 

BTW the guys says he’s not a Star Wars fan but he’s not a hater either. He highlights the good and the bad of the movies in terms of production, cinematography, scenario etc etc. It’s a former student in cinema school and is far from your overall YouTube critique. 
 

Now I disagree with what he says about JW score. But I don’t see how that disqualifies the rest of the video.

 

As for the two films. He does not say they are bad. Not entirely far from it :) 

 


« Keeps saying » 😂 It’s literally 20 seconds in the 2 hours video but okay. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

 

PS: he’s obviously wrong about JW score but if you can go past the character he is playing in its videos, you’ll see it’s a deep analysis and it’s far more subtle than good/bad movies. 

Mmk I'll take your word for it and check it out for myself then

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7 hours ago, Chewy said:

I'm referring to his other videos about the new trilogy, the ones he makes right after the movies come out. There is always a little commentary about how the music "was not memorable" or "was recycled".

 

And by the way, that guy doesn't like Desplat either :banghead:

 

Yup he’s usually wrong when it comes to soundtrack hahaha. 

2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Mmk I'll take your word for it and check it out for myself then

Let me know your thoughts 🙂 He talks production on the beginning of the first video and on the second one.

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TFA is maybe not as original as the previous Star Wars plots (kind of logical when you know there's not Lucas working on it, he's maybe bad with dialogue but rarely with the story) but apart from that I think it has everything a SW movie need: a great score, great characters chemistry, stunning visual effects, awesome production design and efficient directing

If there is one SW movie from the Disney area that I won't complain about it's that one

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On 5/31/2021 at 5:19 AM, crumbs said:

The thumbnail alone says everything you need to know about the "quality" of that video. Clickbait garbage.


Your comment alone says everything you need to know about judging a book only by its cover. You’re right it’s clickbait! Even the name of his videos is : "Pourquoi j’ai raison et vous avez tord" (Why I’m right and you’re wrong). But it’s this divisive character and a bit of troll that triggers people and ultimately make people watch.

 

Now you can hate this, of course :) it’s an opinion and I even agree with you. But saying this video is garbage isn’t true when you look at the amount of work and analysis of the production, cinematography, sfx, scenario, etc. If after watching it you disagree with it that’s fine, it’s your opinion based on the video 🙂 But selling your opinion as fact with sentences such as « its garbage » just based on the thumbnail is at best, sad.

 

I know it's internet but it' not hard to pick between: 

 

• I don't want to watch it because the thumbnail isn't to my liking

• I watched it and I disagree with him

 

You don't have to go with "I decided it's worthless garbage based on the thumbnail".

 

I know I will come across as a fanboy of this youtube channel but again, It's completely okay to disagree with anyone. It's completely okay to have opinions. It's okay if anyone does want to watch a video or whatever. But I'm getting slightly annoyed at how everyone reacts like everything is pure shit or pure gold without nuance. Worse when people react to something they don't bother watching.

 

PS: the thumbnail with RJ giving the middle finger is based on 5sc in the video where he shows how RJ shitted on JJ work. It’s not at all directed to us the viewer or to Rian Johnson.

 

_____________________________

 

 

I think if I introduce the concept of his channel with something else than Star Wars it might be better understood: the video starts with 3 minutes of troll to annoy people and then transforms to analysis where there are good elements (and good movies) in this saga.  

 

 

 

Now this will be my last post with a video from this guy haha. Didn't think I would create such a drama and i'll stop the off topic :) 

 

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2 hours ago, toothless said:

If after watching it you disagree with it that’s fine, it’s your opinion based on the video 🙂 But selling your opinion as fact with sentences such as « its garbage » just based on the thumbnail is at best, sad.

 

Eh, using a photoshopped image of the director giving the middle finger (regardless of where the image came from) as the major selling point of their analysis video reflects poorly on the intellect of their critique.

 

If they want any integrity, they should rise above the gutter-level dregs of YouTube that rely on such pathetic techniques for their clicks. Absolute cringe.

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40 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Eh, using a photoshopped image of the director giving the middle finger (regardless of where the image came from) as the major selling point of their analysis video reflects poorly on the intellect of their critique.

 

If they want any integrity, they should rise above the gutter-level dregs of YouTube that rely on such pathetic techniques for their clicks. Absolute cringe.

 

Again, I can definitely agree on this! :) 

But I don't want to continue off topic by ranting against youtube rules and algorithm and the platform itself :)

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Between this thread bumping and the Abrams quote that I assume spurred it, I'm still really upset at what happened to Star Wars. I thought I was over it, but I guess I'm not. Haven't really thought about Star Wars since the end of Mando season 2 where I saw that show going exactly where I was afraid it would. 

 

...at least it wasn't a rejection of what came before it. Granted, if you look at the Disney trilogy as what came before it, I guess it does do that. Star Wars is at war with itself to this day. It's actually kind of fascinating. That's why people are so drawn into behind the scenes drama in Youtube videos.

 

The war in the pop culture creative world between fan service and the modern trend of rejecting and insulting long standing fans of popular series like Star Wars, Marvel, DC, etc is a much more compelling story than the whole of what's being presented by those series. 

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On 5/30/2021 at 3:08 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

One thing I think TFA really nailed was the humor. It was dry and witty, more along the lines of the OT than the goofy "step in poo" humor of the PT. There was a bit more humor in it than the previous films, but much more sparse compared to the other two sequels which seemed to be very inspired by Marvel, with constant quips and very meta (contemporary Earth-like) humor. Complain all you want that it was incredibly similar to ANH, but it at least felt the most like a traditional Star Wars film.


 

I think a lot of that can be attributed to Lawrence Kasdan working on the script. 

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C3PO is genuinely funny in ROS, for whatever that is worth.  It was the only humor that genuinely worked for me (Babu was funnyish, but mostly just with C3PO).  

 

I did find the Emperor's line funny, but mostly b/c it was JJ admitting on screen that the movie's plot was absurd.  "Long have I waited...for my grandchild to come home."  

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23 hours ago, mstrox said:

I came to this thread for TROS trashing, but I will absolutely stay for YouTuber trashing.


I don’t care for this framing (“rejecting and insulting longstanding fans”) because it implies that there is only one type of longstanding fan, and conversely that no fan is served by whatever it is that you think insults them.

 

You're assuming I mean plot wise. There might be a certain things that I'd argue are natural ways a story should go, but it's really not that. It's the idea that you'd set up something and then tell people none of it matters, its all stupid, and then go around in interviews telling someone they're closed minded and a fool for wanting something to be a certain way and if you don't accept this new era of how things are, you're a retrograde and worse. 

 

Plot wise there were lots of ways it could have gone that would have been satisfying. The problem is they chose all the least interesting ways. It's the reaction to that which drew the poison from the creators. 

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15 hours ago, Ollie said:

I think a lot of that can be attributed to Lawrence Kasdan working on the script. 

 

It also has JJ Abrams flavour of adventure. It whisks you along.

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