The Force Awakens The Force Awakens Disney Records OST

[Jilal 569]

TPM was less closely miked than AOTC and ROTS, lending its sound a more open, hall-like quality. Compare the field/snare drums in TPM cues like Droid Fight or Escape from Naboo to the field/snare drums in The Arena or Boys Into Battle, for example. I'd say AOTC and ROTS sound pretty much the same - the AOTC OST, though, was mastered differently, I believe.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The use of the Decca tree on the brass in TPM is quite distinctive.

[Datameister 2,037]

Did Shawn Murphy not use the Decca tree for AOTC?

[Jilal 569]

He did, but less so.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I like the sound of the prequels, but TFA even more.  It's a lot more natural.  Woodwinds aren't "buried," there's just no spot-mic mania going on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But if Ocelot claims there are woodwind parts in the sheet music which are barely audible in the mix?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Bad orchestration!

 

 

I think this is a fair point though.  Film music fans who don't listen to "classical" recordings (and even those are sometimes sonically false) often may tend to get a skewed idea of what an orchestra sounds like.  Even someone like Williams relies on technology to bring certain details out.  So when you hear something recorded with less of these "enhancements," it seems drab, maybe.  The prequels had a lot of closely recorded woodwinds and percussion, which throws the perspective off quite a bit.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ocelot is a trained composer and orchestrator though.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I'm sure Ocelot is more than capable of speaking for himself.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mr. Ocelot doesn't speak to just everyone. You will need to be vetted! 

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Bad orchestration!

 

 

I think this is a fair point though.  Film music fans who don't listen to "classical" recordings (and even those are sometimes sonically false) often may tend to get a skewed idea of what an orchestra sounds like.  Even someone like Williams relies on technology to bring certain details out.  So when you hear something recorded with less of these "enhancements," it seems drab, maybe.  The prequels had a lot of closely recorded woodwinds and percussion, which throws the perspective off quite a bit.

 

I noticed it more so with the percussion than the woodwinds in the prequels, and mostly in ROTS. Doesn't help that the percussion was recorded separately. There are certainly moments when spot mics are used to bring out other adjective instruments, but the mix all seems fairly natural-sounding to my ear. Certainly more so than with some less "traditional" film composers' work. That was part of what made Hooper's Potter scores sound so jarring to me, for instance - the whole philosophy behind the recording was totally different.

[ocelot 508]

LOL, Stefan, heh  There's actually more close mic happening in this score than TPM, the brass has definitely been brought forward and the woodwinds pulled back. It's very evident in the mix but it's still one of my favorite scores. The orchestrations are solid. However, remember, Williams writes in short hand, and giving it to the copyists rather than going through the expert hands of Pope, Neufeld or Karam has resulted in runs not being fully fleshed out as Williams usually likes them. That does not mean that those are the reasons they are buried. In the Signature edition they are all written to be able to be heard beautifully. In one of the FYC tracks, trying to remember which one, you can barely hear the woodwind runs, even when there is a piccolo blasting at it, that would ring out in any orchestra. I write, and when I write, I write big and I know exactly how to balance and orchestra and how things will sound once my music is bering performed, whether the Royal Philharmonic, The Alma Orchestra, The Philharmonia or The Qatar Philharmonic to name a few. And if I know how to balance an orchestra, trust me, this man knows more than all us composers in Hollywood combined! The woodwinds were buried to have a more modern sound. But you can believe what you want of course. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of this score. My favorite is TPM, then TESB and TFA.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

1 hour ago, ocelot said:

 But you can believe what you want of course. 

 

Is this meant for me?  You say this as if we aren't making exactly the same point: that on TFA, the woodwinds were not nearly as closely recorded as on the prequels.  Have I misunderstood something?  I hear the sound as more natural than usual, despite the dialing up of the brass.  I admit that in-your-face woodwinds is a pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm oversensitive. 

 

And my quip about bad orchestration was entirely farcical, but it's understandable that you may take it seriously if you're not used to the typical banter here.  So there's no need for lessons in Williams' orchestrational methods and abilities to assure me of their quality.  And no need for the name dropping of orchestras you've worked with.  No need for credentials.  You have nothing to prove to me or anyone else here.  

[ocelot 508]

52 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

Is this meant for me?  You say this as if we aren't making exactly the same point: that on TFA, the woodwinds were not nearly as closely recorded as on the prequels.  Have I misunderstood something?  I hear the sound as more natural than usual, despite the dialing up of the brass.  I admit that in-your-face woodwinds is a pet peeve of mine, so maybe I'm oversensitive. 

 

And my quip about bad orchestration was entirely farcical, but it's understandable that you may take it seriously if you're not used to the typical banter here.  So there's no need for lessons in Williams' orchestrational methods and abilities to assure me of their quality.  And no need for the name dropping of orchestras you've worked with.  No need for credentials.  You have nothing to prove to me or anyone else here.  

Nope, was meant for all the comments after mine. And I wasn't name dropping, trust me, I DEFINITELY wasn't name dropping, heh, it was just stating that it doesn't matter which orchestra plays, as long as you balance your orchestrations, it should always come out. As for in your face woodwinds. That choir is the biggest color you have in the orchestra, why not use it? There's a reason why TPM is for me one of the best scores Williams has ever written. Not just the slew of themes and incredible chase music but also the orchestral color that just hits you from every angle, it's glorious. e

[artguy360 1,843]

2 hours ago, ocelot said:

LOL, Stefan, heh  There's actually more close mic happening in this score than TPM, the brass has definitely been brought forward and the woodwinds pulled back. It's very evident in the mix but it's still one of my favorite scores. The orchestrations are solid. However, remember, Williams writes in short hand, and giving it to the copyists rather than going through the expert hands of Pope, Neufeld or Karam has resulted in runs not being fully fleshed out as Williams usually likes them. That does not mean that those are the reasons they are buried. In the Signature edition they are all written to be able to be heard beautifully. In one of the FYC tracks, trying to remember which one, you can barely hear the woodwind runs, even when there is a piccolo blasting at it, that would ring out in any orchestra. I write, and when I write, I write big and I know exactly how to balance and orchestra and how things will sound once my music is bering performed, whether the Royal Philharmonic, The Alma Orchestra, The Philharmonia or The Qatar Philharmonic to name a few. And if I know how to balance an orchestra, trust me, this man knows more than all us composers in Hollywood combined! The woodwinds were buried to have a more modern sound. But you can believe what you want of course. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of this score. My favorite is TPM, then TESB and TFA.

Conrad Pope says JW worked on all the orchestrations himself, more closely than he normally would on a normal film with a tighter recording schedule, and that JW had help from William Ross with the orchestrations. I think what we hear is very close to how JW intended. 

[ocelot 508]

13 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

Conrad Pope says JW worked on all the orchestrations himself, more closely than he normally would on a normal film with a tighter recording schedule, and that JW had help from William Ross with the orchestrations. I think what we hear is very close to how JW intended. 

Yes, Williams orchestrated everything himself in shorthand. Meaning when he had woodwind runs in piccolos, flutes, oboes, clarinets and english horn, he wouldn't spell out every octave. Conrad would know to spread them out orchestrally as that is what Williams would want and intended. The guys and gals at Joanne Kane might now have spread them out the same way. Plus again, as I said, someone pulled back the woodwinds in the mix. In the FYC track "The resistance" you can hear how far back the woodwinds are and how far forward the brass is.  It's all over that track, but if you listen to even the runs in .31/.32, you can barely hear them, they should ring out there had they used the room mics which is what they used more in Abbey Road.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

9 hours ago, ocelot said:

Nope, was meant for all the comments after mine. And I wasn't name dropping, trust me, I DEFINITELY wasn't name dropping, heh, it was just stating that it doesn't matter which orchestra plays, as long as you balance your orchestrations, it should always come out. As for in your face woodwinds. That choir is the biggest color you have in the orchestra, why not use it? There's a reason why TPM is for me one of the best scores Williams has ever written. Not just the slew of themes and incredible chase music but also the orchestral color that just hits you from every angle, it's glorious. e

 

Of course I have no issue with using woodwinds, that's not what I said.  By "in your face," in the context of what we're talking about, I mean artificially pumped up solos, like a flute that seems to come at you from right next to your ear over a really singing string section that should swallow it up, that sort of thing. 

[ocelot 508]

3 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

Of course I have no issue with using woodwinds, that's not what I said.  By "in your face," in the context of what we're talking about, I mean artificially pumped up solos, like a flute that seems to come at you from right next to your ear over a really singing string section that should swallow it up, that sort of thing. 

I agree with that 100%. The orchestra is structured in such a way where things should lay naturally. I know in movies and tv we need to have things that would be unnatural live on stage but as composers we all have to submit to those whims of the powers that be. I hate it because if we write smartly, it shouldn't have to be pumped up, and if it's not heard enough, then it warrants a re-orchestration to make it sing out naturally.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

5 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

artificially pumped up solos, like a flute that seems to come at you from right next to your ear over a really singing string section that should swallow it up, that sort of thing. 

 

Could you give an example of that?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

This is one that's always bothered me, because the music is otherwise so gorgeous.  This happens a lot with Morricone actually.  In this case it isn't so much that balance is achieved "artificially" (although when the violins jump up high, it does become a bit of that), but just that I don't want to hear those solos that close up, I want to hear them swimming in the room behind the strings a bit.

 

 

 

But again, I do agree with those who don't find the winds to be too subtle in TFA.  Some of the pirouetting runs in the opening and end credits marches, for example, come through clearer than I've ever heard them before - even including the Gerhardt recordings which are decidedly more "classical" in their approach than both TFA and the prequels.

[Loert 2,510]

2 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

Some of the pirouetting runs in the opening and end credits marches, for example, come through clearer than I've ever heard them before - even including the Gerhardt recordings which are decidedly more "classical" in their approach than both TFA and the prequels.

 

Have you listened to the first take of the Star Wars theme? The winds were very loud there. I think the mixing was somehow maladjusted for that type of piece before anybody in the studio knew what it was "supposed" to sound like.

 

 

[Jilal 569]

Yeah, but the timpani are mixed far too prominently as well. Tomlinson was notorious for mixing everything "live".

[ocelot 508]

On April 28, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Stefancos said:

Mr. Ocelot doesn't speak to just everyone. You will need to be vetted! 

As you know, I have standards to uphold, having been deemed a National Treasure like Dame Maggie Smith! I mean Honestly... The Riff Raff!

[SilverTrumpet 638]

So uh...almost five months later, is anyone finding themselves overwhelmingly listening the FYC soundtrack over the regular released one?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, I only listened to the FYC once. I made my own edit which I play with some regularity, but I find myself coming back to the OST most often.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

I have a really hard time going back to the OST for some reason. It just doesn't feel like it flows as well as even the FYC version. I feel like the OST, as if each track is trying to speak and make a point, it goes off on a ton of tangents and is a harder listen.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ok

[Datameister 2,037]

I've mostly just listened to my own combined edit of the two versions. Each one omits contains some good stuff that's missing from the other. If I had to pick just one, I might still stick with the OST, but fortunately, I don't have to make that choice.

 

My listening habits may soon change, as I'm now about to embark on the journey of adding stuff from the Blu-ray, but I'm not sure how fruitful that'll be. A lot of the cues I'll be adding or fleshing out are a real mess in the film. This score is one that really just needs to be released in full.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

4 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

So uh...almost five months later, is anyone finding themselves overwhelmingly listening the FYC soundtrack over the regular released one?

As a cohesive listening experience, I vastly prefer the OST, though some of the FYC tracks (most notably the Jakku attack opening) are far superior.  

[Bespin 8,479]

4 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

So uh...almost five months later, is anyone finding themselves overwhelmingly listening the FYC soundtrack over the regular released one?

 

I asked myself the same question the last time I wanted to listen to the soundtrack. Do I listen the original album, The FYC one... the combined playlist.

 

I'm used to wait 15 years before an extended release of a Star Wars soundtrack. 

 

I'm completely lost!

 

[Datameister 2,037]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Big said:

As a cohesive listening experience, I vastly prefer the OST, though some of the FYC tracks (most notably the Jakku attack opening) are far superior.  

 

That about sums it up for me too.

 

Again, very glad we can have the best of both worlds!

[Jilal 569]

On ‎30‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 6:42 AM, ocelot said:

Yes, Williams orchestrated everything himself in shorthand. Meaning when he had woodwind runs in piccolos, flutes, oboes, clarinets and english horn, he wouldn't spell out every octave. Conrad would know to spread them out orchestrally as that is what Williams would want and intended. The guys and gals at Joanne Kane might now have spread them out the same way. Plus again, as I said, someone pulled back the woodwinds in the mix. In the FYC track "The resistance" you can hear how far back the woodwinds are and how far forward the brass is.  It's all over that track, but if you listen to even the runs in .31/.32, you can barely hear them, they should ring out there had they used the room mics which is what they used more in Abbey Road.

 

Not really. The "sketch" scores you can see in the various featurettes are a bit more elaborate than his usual scores, including even the various 16 stave sketches he did for ROTS, Tintin, etc. For example, there's a shot of a sketch score showing a completely written out string section (5 staves instead of the usual 3). Really there's no actual difference between even his shorthand and the actual orchestrations - mostly, the woodwinds follow Rimsky-Korsakov's guidelines anyway, it's incredibly straightforward. Runs used to be dovetailed, but those days seem to be over, mostly. Oboes sometimes skip to an octave below, given their limited range.Triads are never interlocked, really, they're mostly orchestrated in block chord fashion save for perhaps his concert cues.

[Arpy 4,145]

I find myself moving between the two. The sound of the OST is superior, it's nice and clear but the bonus music presented in the FYC is too hard to choose between!

[SilverTrumpet 638]

15 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

I asked myself the same question the last time I wanted to listen to the soundtrack. Do I listen the original album, The FYC one... the combined playlist.

 

I'm used to wait 15 years before an extended release of a Star Wars soundtrack. 

 

I'm completely lost!

 

Has someone even put together a good edit prioritizing the sound quality of the OST and just adding in stuff only found on the FYC version? I kinda just disappeared and got lost in the music for awhile after I saw that popped up.

[Datameister 2,037]

Sound-wise, the only real difference between the OST and the FYC is that the OST has somewhat more aggressive dynamic range compression. But if you line up the same passage from both and mess with the gains so the volume levels match, they sound pretty much identical. Can't tell which is which.

 

When I was initially putting together my edit, I thought the OST sounded better, too, so I prioritized it over the FYC. Then I came to realize that the differences were all in my head and I just focused on getting all the music in there.

 

If you want to hear some truly different mixes, check out the Blu-ray audio channels - the fronts are clear and balanced, the sides are very wet with little definition, and the rears are totally dry and darker in tone. I could easily tell these apart blind. The FYC and OST...not so much.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Did a higher bitrate CD version of the FYC version come out or something? Last I remember the FYC was a 160 kbps stream file where you're obviously going to get a higher quality from the OST CD.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Someone bought a copy of the FYC promo from eBay and made it available

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Oh I honestly didn't know that. Cool. I'll have to find it.

[Jay 37,287]

3 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Did a higher bitrate CD version of the FYC version come out or something? Last I remember the FYC was a 160 kbps stream file where you're obviously going to get a higher quality from the OST CD.

 

A JWfan member purchased a physical copy of the FYC CD and was nice enough to share a lossless rip of it with the entire internet over on that place that worships those Final Fantasy games.

 

You can read about her purchase starting here:

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25940-the-force-awakens-fyc-release-discussion-film-spoilers-allowed/&page=11#comment-1212844

[ocelot 508]

12 hours ago, Jilal said:

 

Not really. The "sketch" scores you can see in the various featurettes are a bit more elaborate than his usual scores, including even the various 16 stave sketches he did for ROTS, Tintin, etc. For example, there's a shot of a sketch score showing a completely written out string section (5 staves instead of the usual 3). Really there's no actual difference between even his shorthand and the actual orchestrations - mostly, the woodwinds follow Rimsky-Korsakov's guidelines anyway, it's incredibly straightforward. Runs used to be dovetailed, but those days seem to be over, mostly. Oboes sometimes skip to an octave below, given their limited range.Triads are never interlocked, really, they're mostly orchestrated in block chord fashion save for perhaps his concert cues.

There's always a reason to to dovetailing. I use it for color changes between instruments, it's a great technique. But for chase scene runs, there's no point. There's so much happening that you literally want all the woodwinds charging up on the runs to balance the brass and percussion.

[Bespin 8,479]

On 2016-05-02 at 10:42 AM, Jay said:

 

A JWfan member purchased a physical copy of the FYC CD and was nice enough to share a lossless rip of it with the entire internet over on that place that worships those Final Fantasy games.

 

You can read about her purchase starting here:

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25940-the-force-awakens-fyc-release-discussion-film-spoilers-allowed/&page=11#comment-1212844

 

Where can we find the link?

[Jay 37,287]

On 5/2/2016 at 10:42 AM, Jay said:

over on that place that worships those Final Fantasy games.

 

[Bespin 8,479]

Ah... An X never, ever mark the spot?  I see.

[Oskar 77]

Well, it looks like the two layers of emboss have finally been topped!  

 

 

[Incanus 5,713]

I hope they would focus more on releasing "More music from Star Wars Episode 7" rather than finding ways to resell the same product over and over again with really awful collectors' gimmicks. I think Sony showed Disney how to NOT do it.

[Jay 37,287]

4 hours ago, Oskar said:

Well, it looks like the two layers of emboss have finally been topped!  

 

3 hours ago, Incanus said:

I hope they would focus more on releasing "More music from Star Wars Episode 7" rather than finding ways to resell the same product over and over again with really awful collectors' gimmicks. I think Sony showed Disney how to NOT do it.

 

Hear, hear!

[rpvee 805]

So has anyone preordered the vinyl yet?  Holograms or not, it's very tempting to have TFA on vinyl like the OT... (and hopefully Disney will release the prequel ones individually at some point)

[Disco Stu 15,495]

8 hours ago, rpvee said:

So has anyone preordered the vinyl yet?  Holograms or not, it's very tempting to have TFA on vinyl like the OT... (and hopefully Disney will release the prequel ones individually at some point)

 

I preordered it on Amazon back in December!

 

Thanks to Amazon's preorder price guarantee combined with them underestimating the final price, I'm getting it at a $15 discount!

[rpvee 805]

I picked up the vinyl this morning!  Has anyone else gotten it?

 

It's really satisfying to see it next to the original trilogy records.  My record player isn't anything to write home about, but TFA sounded great to my ear, and while the hologram thing is definitely gimmicky, it's also really cool and amazing technology I really enjoyed seeing.

 

Overall, a great release, in my opinion!

[aj_vader 533]

20 minutes ago, rpvee said:

I picked up the vinyl this morning!  Has anyone else gotten it?

 

It's really satisfying to see it next to the original trilogy records.  My record player isn't anything to write home about, but TFA sounded great to my ear, and while the hologram thing is definitely gimmicky, it's also really cool and amazing technology I really enjoyed seeing.

 

Overall, a great release, in my opinion!

Totally agree, its beautiful.