MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: FALLOUT (2018) - Film & Score

[Nick1Ø66 4,712]

Film music is dead.

[deleted account 108]

hahah, that's one way to put it!

 

[Richard Penna 3,685]

4 hours ago, elvisjones said:

As a relative outsider (and less frequent poster) looking in, there is something very interesting going in this thread.  Koray really seems to be personally, emotionally involved in what people say, and how people feel, about the director McQuarrie and composer Balfe, as much, or even more than, the movie itself.  It seems like anyone who makes a negative comment about the film or its score gets treated as if they've personally insulted not only the director and composer, but also Koray himself, to a degree.  I honestly, and with the utmost respect, wonder why that is....

 

I think it's funny that Dan Goldwasser (Scoringsessions.com) got all annoyed when Drew asked about the "Pirates" score on Twitter, too. 

 

A funny commonality between the two (as many here may know) is that Koray's brother runs FILM.MUSIC.MEDIA and Dan runs SCORING SESSIONS.  Both of these websites rely on positive personal relationships with composers, in the latter case, to get permission to come photograph recording sessions, and in the prior case, to get inside access to composers for their in-depth video interviews.

 

I'm fairly sure that this is the reason behind almost all of the condescending negativity in this thread.

 

When it spills over into being so condescending and dismissive of any criticism whatsoever of the score, that starts to become a big problem.

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

Yeah, if a person wants to be taken seriously as a critic he should accept that people can have different opinions about a score.

[Mr. Who 919]

1 hour ago, elvisjones said:

As a relative outsider (and less frequent poster) looking in, there is something very interesting going in this thread.  Koray really seems to be personally, emotionally involved in what people say, and how people feel, about the director McQuarrie and composer Balfe, as much, or even more than, the movie itself.  It seems like anyone who makes a negative comment about the film or its score gets treated as if they've personally insulted not only the director and composer, but also Koray himself, to a degree.  I honestly, and with the utmost respect, wonder why that is....

 

I think it's funny that Dan Goldwasser (Scoringsessions.com) got all annoyed when Drew asked about the "Pirates" score on Twitter, too. 

 

A funny commonality between the two (as many here may know) is that Koray's brother runs FILM.MUSIC.MEDIA and Dan runs SCORING SESSIONS.  Both of these websites rely on positive personal relationships with composers, in the latter case, to get permission to come photograph recording sessions, and in the prior case, to get inside access to composers for their in-depth video interviews.

 

Not that anyone asked, but personally, I think the current trend in film music tends to favor scores that sound more like recordings/sound design and less like live orchestral performances.  I liken it to the trend in the 90's when MTV-style quick-cutting was all the rage in filmmaking, or when digital color-grading came in and made everything look super saturated (like Oh Brother Where Art Though or Ultraviolet) or when Bullet-time was everywhere.  I think Drew asked a relevant question when he asked about samples vs. live.  Does anyone here really think that RCP scores sound the same as JW scores?  Honestly, I think we all agree RCP has a sound that is not really anything like JW's.

 

There are people on this board who dismiss the current sound (myself included, if I'm honest), and there are people who like it.  The people who seem to like it, such as Mr. Who, seem to take any criticism of it as a pointless exercise in "bashing" music they like.   Some even seem to feel like certain people here take JW too seriously, which strikes me as funny considering this IS a John Williams fan site.

 

One thing that has emerged seems to be that the community here could be sorted into two very general camps - 1 camp likes to listen to film music primarily for it's musical value and the other camp likes to listen to film music primarily because of its association with a film.  Camp 1 has been critical of the score to Fallout, while camp 2 has argued that camp 1 is disregarding what it's association to the film adds to it.  For what it's worth, I fall into camp 1, again, not that anybody asked.

 

thoughts?

 

Funny thing is, I don’t even like The MI6 score. It’s pretty repetitive and doesn’t go anywhere. I just think the attitudes of some people are really childish and stupid. I listen mostly to romantic era classical music which has a very different sound to this score lol. However I did think the score worked very well in the movie which was great.

 

Balfe and Giachino both have recording styles I don’t like but I don’t go round complaining and complaining about it, tagging the composers on twitter.

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

How many times must @Drew say he wasn't the one who tagged the composer? 

[deleted account 108]

1 hour ago, Mr. Who said:

Funny thing is, I don’t even like The MI6 score. It’s pretty repetitive and doesn’t go anywhere. I just think the attitudes of some people are really childish and stupid. I listen mostly to romantic era classical music which has a very different sound to this score lol. However I did think the score worked very well in the movie which was great.

 

Balfe and Giachino both have recording styles I don’t like but I don’t go round complaining and complaining about it, tagging the composers on twitter.

 

Fair enough that you don't like the score.  I apologize for misquoting you one that

 

But a major part of fan forums like this is that it gives people a forum to talk about their opinions on scores, positive AND negative, without being accused of "complaining" or being "childish and stupid". 

 

[Richard Penna 3,685]

Honestly, when we're debating about our simple ability to discuss whether a score's any good, something's gone wrong

 

Thing is, this isn't a black and white issue - there are loads of orchestral scores I think are rubbish, and many RCP ones that I love. This is simply about one composer assignment where the composer's prior output hasn't struck a chord with many, and the end result is having a similar effect. There's no reason at all to have such an offended approach to criticism.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Koray has a point though.  Film music is film music.  Despite a few decades of it that by chance were done in an idiom that also had wide appeal on album, it is a single part of a larger artistic endeavor.  The only problem is people thinking they're somehow owed fabulous soundtrack album music.  It's like Mattris thinking that he is owed his particular vision of Star Wars. 

 

4 hours ago, elvisjones said:

 

I think Drew asked a relevant question when he asked about samples vs. live.  Does anyone here really think that RCP scores sound the same as JW scores?  Honestly, I think we all agree RCP has a sound that is not really anything like JW's.

 

Some even seem to feel like certain people here take JW too seriously, which strikes me as funny considering this IS a John Williams fan site.

 

1) That's the thing though, of course their scores sound different.  It's Lorne Balfe.  Don't know how it could be a surprise what his score sounds like.  So I can easily see how some might interpret a poll on this rather obvious subject as a catty move, whether or not it was meant to be.  

 

2) Being a fan of Williams without resorting to sycophantary and having perspective and equal measures of respect for other musicians are not mutually exclusive. 

[Richard Penna 3,685]

To an extent yes, it's about what we think we should get out of a film, music-wise, and if the filmmakers have gone in a different direction, then that's disappointing but it's their choice. Absolutely agree with you there.

 

But then there's the ability to debate that end result and discuss how suitable we think it was as a scoring approach. That's a very valid and often fun discussion to have, and we were doing that until Koray smashed open the door and ordered us to watch the film before offering any opinions, and then to please (pretty please) avoid pesky negative opinions.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Looking back over the thread I don't really see Koray doing that at all.  I do see some rather baseless implications about he and his brother, and others', credibility as reviewers. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,712]

Quote

Mission Impossible: Fallout (Lorne Balfe-2018)

Buy it…If you prefer your scores to sound souless and sampled, or you’re friends with the composer, or you're one of the Savas brothers.

Avoid it...If you’re anyone else.

 

[Richard Penna 3,685]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TGP said:

Looking back over the thread I don't really see Koray doing that at all.  I do see some rather baseless implications about he and his brother, and others', credibility as reviewers. 

 

Well, such as this:

 

Quote

All this bullshit talk about music standing on its own. Is anyone’s favorite film score that of a movie they haven’t seen? Do people honestly not think of the FILM Star Wars, while listening to Star Wars?

 

Several of my top 10 scores are for films I've never seen. Not an overly strong argument.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You also listen to a lot of library music though, right?  I bet it actually isn't very common, excluding Goldsmith scores.  

[Richard Penna 3,685]

I do, but that's more from seeing a lot of documentaries and wanting to find the music. I find a lot of really engaging music in the searching process.

 

I find it hard to believe that appreciating a score without seeing the film is unusual. Absolutely there are exceptions, and some scores that only opened up after viewing the film, but I think it works both ways.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Probably about half of all the scores I listen to, I have not seen the film.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yeah but that's not what Koray was saying.  He said favorite.  Of course we all like scores to films we haven't seen.  But how often is one of them our peak film music experience?  My guess is not often at all.  

[Locrius 97]

Pretty often, actually. And the ones that I have seen the films to, I only saw the film to because I already considered the score a favorite. Great scores often influence my movie-watching choices. But seeing the film has nothing to do with initially cementing a score as a favorite.

 

I considered Horner’s THE LAND BEFORE TIME an all-time favorite for years before I finally got around to watching the film. I consider Williams’ MONSIGNOR a favorite; still haven’t seen that movie, but if I do at some point, it will be entirely because the score is so good. Come to think of it, this all dates back to my childhood; the first score I ever fell in love with—THE PHANTOM MENACE—I considered my favorite well before I even saw the film.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

The Russia House and Gremlins 2 are some of my favorites and I’ve never seen those films.  So was The Greatest Miracle, which I liked much less after seeing the film. Same with The Last Airbender.

[Nick1Ø66 4,712]

 

1 hour ago, TGP said:

Yeah but that's not what Koray was saying.  He said favorite.  Of course we all like scores to films we haven't seen.  But how often is one of them our peak film music experience?  My guess is not often at all.  

 

I remember I asked a variation of this question here shortly after I joined. I got the forum equivalent of people looking at me as if I were a mentally challenged six year old.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

1 hour ago, TGP said:

Yeah but that's not what Koray was saying.  He said favorite.  Of course we all like scores to films we haven't seen.  But how often is one of them our peak film music experience?  My guess is not often at all.  

Lionheart is top 5 Goldsmith for me and I don't even know what the movie's about.

[publicist 4,643]

insert 'keep it that way' meme.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Since it's likely not a film about a lion's heart, I couldn't care less.

..Actually, come to think of it, what's with Goldsmith scoring two movies with the word lion in the title but not actually featuring lions!? The Wind and the Lion, Lionheart!? What's up with that!? 

And then there's John Barry's Lion in Winter!

What's that? Goldsmith did eventually score a movie featuring actual lions?...but the title has nothing to do with lions?

It just don't add up!

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

The world can be confusing sometimes...

[Richard Penna 3,685]

I thought Lionheart involved a Lion until I looked it up 10 seconds ago.

 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Hold the Lion, Please! 

[Koray Savas 2,251]

16 hours ago, Locrius said:

 

I love the irony of a film music reviewer/writer—who has a reviews website because obviously he thinks his and his brother's opinions are worth people "caring" about—saying "who cares?" when it comes to someone else's opinion. I see absolutely nothing wrong with @Drew wondering out loud if other people on Twitter also felt like the score sounds like samples; just like I also see nothing wrong with him thinking of it as a "waste" of time, money etc. when a full orchestra is hired to perform a score and it winds up sounding (from his perspective at least) like samples.

 

 

Entitled to what? They're sharing their opinions on social media. What exactly are you saying they're entitled to, that they shouldn't be?

 

 

...Okay? And? And people will just keep on criticizing them as they see fit. As they have every right to. Not sure what point you're trying to make. You really have no business reviewing film music, if you get so heated at the notion that people have differing opinions. Your whole comment reeks of condescension.

1) I’m not a film music reviewer/writer. Film.Music.Media is not my site, nor do I have any involvement with it outside of being related to the creator. I used to sporadically contribute reviews but haven’t done so for probably over a year. I never even posted the review or Balfe’s interview on this board. Other members did. 

 

2) As TGP said, people act like they’re entitled to one approach to film scoring and that everything should be scored in this manner. Just as much as you love your Silver Age orchestral sound, there are others who love the “RCP sound.” There is no one way to approach a film score. I don’t like Tyler Bates but I don’t go around berating his work on Guardians Of The Galaxy or his other projects. 

 

12 hours ago, elvisjones said:

As a relative outsider (and less frequent poster) looking in, there is something very interesting going in this thread.  Koray really seems to be personally, emotionally involved in what people say, and how people feel, about the director McQuarrie and composer Balfe, as much, or even more than, the movie itself.  It seems like anyone who makes a negative comment about the film or its score gets treated as if they've personally insulted not only the director and composer, but also Koray himself, to a degree.  I honestly, and with the utmost respect, wonder why that is....

Well it is pretty insulting to message Lorne Balfe and say they won’t see the movie because of his music, no? The only reason people think I’m peronsally involved in any of this M:I business is because of my last name. I’m just tired of internet negativity and outrage culture. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

And please, let's nip in the bud this idea that "calling out" these "RCP" composers on their "mediocrity" is somehow a good thing, like you're performing a public service.  Like I've already said, it doesn't accomplish anything good.  And I think everyone knows that.  I don't believe anyone really thinks they're saving film music or pushing for higher quality by saying shit to Lorne Balfe.  It's keyboard warriors taking shots at celebrities because they can.

 

Also spare me the twisting of this comment to mean that I think composers shouldn't have to hear honest opinions.  You know damn well that's not what I mean and there's nothing more boring than an argument over twisted words.  We've had enough of those.  

[Arpy 4,145]

The original poll question seemed a bit condescending to me, something rubbed me the wrong way about asking questions you already know the answer to. If anyone has followed Balfe's career they'd know that part of the way he produces his scores is through sampling and using stems. It doesn't seem surprising, or a poll worth asking if the score sounds like it was sampled, because it's true, a combination of recordings and samples, like most of Balfe's scores.

 

 

 

 

 

[Drew 590]

20 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The original poll question seemed a bit condescending to me, something rubbed me the wrong way about asking questions you already know the answer to. If anyone has followed Balfe's career they'd know that part of the way he produces his scores is through sampling and using stems. It doesn't seem surprising, or a poll worth asking if the score sounds like it was sampled, because it's true, a combination of recordings and samples, like most of Balfe's scores.

 

 

Then why was Balfe so stubborn about it with the picture of the orchestra? If it's so obvious, why does it come across as if he is trying to push this subject under the rug?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You said it yourself, obviously he misunderstood the question and thought you were implying that it was all done with samples, not just that you had a problem with the overall sound.  I wouldn't call that being stubborn.  And I don't know where you're getting this sweeping under the rug thing from after looking at the exchange again.  Frankly I think if it seems that way to you, it's because that's what you want to see. 

[Drew 590]

6 minutes ago, TGP said:

You said it yourself, obviously he misunderstood the question and thought you were implying that it was all done with samples, not just that you had a problem with the overall sound.  I wouldn't call that being stubborn. 

 

He must have continued to misunderstand my questions repeatedly after I rephrased them, because he brought back the same "I was there and there was a real orchestra" rebuttal for my POTC poll.

 

So either he is good at dodging my questions, or he can't read properly?...

[Arpy 4,145]

10 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

Then why was Balfe so stubborn about it with the picture of the orchestra? If it's so obvious, why does it come across as if he is trying to push this subject under the rug?

Umm...

 

...because it was recorded with live players...

[Drew 590]

3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Umm...

 

...because it was recorded with live players...

 

But does it sound like that in the final product? Hence my poll.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 minute ago, Drew said:

 

He must have continued to misunderstand my questions repeatedly after I rephrased them, because he brought back the same "I was there and there was a real orchestra" rebuttal for my POTC poll.

 

Mate.  This is what I saw and see: a goofy Twitter account in a ridiculous argument with a composer in which the goofy Twitter account is kind of making a fool of itself by looking for drama where there really isn't any.  Lorne responded completely reasonably.  So did Dan Goldwasser.  It doesn't help your case that even before this, months ago, it was painfully obvious that you had some beef with Balfe already.  Whether or not it's an actual grudge or something, I'd just move on at this point.  

[Arpy 4,145]

It was recorded live, with sections used to become stems, probably enhanced with library samples - standard procedure for RCP and Balfe in particular. That's just the way it is, if it sounds like it was made with samples that's because, in part, it was! Sampled from his live recordings and the extensive library recordings.

4 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

But does it sound like that in the final product? Hence my poll.

 

[Drew 590]

1 minute ago, Arpy said:

It was recorded live, with sections used to become stems, probably enhanced with library samples - standard procedure for RCP and Balfe in particular. That's just the way it is, if it sounds like it was made with samples that's because, in part, it was.

 

 

"Does the "Mission: Impossible - Fallout" score sound like the final product was performed mostly or entirely using samples?"

Perhaps I should have used "partly" instead.

 

Anyway, if that's just the way it is, then why is everyone freaking out over it? I wanted to start a discussion about it. That's all.

[Arpy 4,145]

Sometimes the mixing of the score is responsible for how we hear and perceive the recording. Does the final product sound like samples? I think it's not a question worth asking when scores have sounded that way for at least the last decade, especially from RCP.

[Drew 590]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

I think it's not a question worth asking when scores have sounded that way for at least the last decade, especially from RCP.

 

 

But has it ever been answered? It's worth a try. It's clearly been going on for so long that some composers accustomed to this process get confused with questions about it because it's normal to them.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You weren’t trying to start a discussion, you were trying to be snarky. You already know the answers to your questions so why pander them on social media?

[Locrius 97]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

something rubbed me the wrong way about asking questions you already know the answer to.

 

What? It was a subjective question. No right or wrong answer.

 

13 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

You already know the answers to your questions

 

Really not sure why people keep bringing this up. If I know that I think McDonald's chicken nuggets don't taste like real chicken, does that mean I'm not allowed to ask and see if anyone else thinks so too? @Drew's question is asking to find out if anyone else thinks it sounds like samples. That is a totally valid question.

 

By your logic, no one should ever put out surveys for instance, because their own personal opinion on the question is all that matters; if you have any interest in finding out if other people share your opinion, too bad—not allowed to do that. /s

 

If I have an opinion question for other people, then "knowing the answer to my own question" (aka my own opinion) is irrelevant. Of course @Drew already knows his own opinion on something he is asking others about.

 

If I think that Strauss sounds a lot like Mahler in a particular passage of a particular piece, am I not allowed to ask if other people think the same? I mean, again, by your logic, I "already know the answer" to my own question i.e. I already have an opinion, so it's not acceptable to find out other people's opinions.

 

Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

[Arpy 4,145]

4 minutes ago, Locrius said:

 

What? It was a subjective question. No right or wrong answer.

Quote

"Does the "Mission: Impossible - Fallout" score sound like the final product was performed mostly or entirely using samples?"

B A L F E  U S E S  S A M P L E S.

 

There's no question that it sounds like that because they are samples (from live recordings and library recordings). It's almost tautology at this point.

 

 

[Locrius 97]

No one is questioning whether or not the final product was performed using samples, though... @Drew was questioning what it sounds like. Why is this so hard to understand??? He didn't ask whether or not samples were used. He asked if it sounds like it was mostly/entirely samples. There are some soundtracks that use samples, but in a very unobtrusive/non-obvious way, to the point that I think it's all 100% real orchestra.

 

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the question. It's like you're not even reading it.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

We've got some of that "continuing the argument through misinterpretation, willful or inadvertent" stuff that I hate going on here.

 

6 minutes ago, Locrius said:

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the question. It's like you're not even reading it.

 

Examine this statement with regards to yourself...

[Drew 590]

23 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

You weren’t trying to start a discussion, you were trying to be snarky. You already know the answers to your questions so why pander them on social media?

 

I started a discussion and Balfe started a snark fest complete with bad headphones and wax-filled ears.

[Locrius 97]

>Listen to soundtrack

>Know already that samples are used; that's to be expected

>Can't tell if samples are the main thing, though; is there even a real orchestra or not, too?

>Ask on Twitter to see if other people think it sounds like mostly/entirely samples

 

People here don't seem to understand the premise of @Drew's question.

 

Duh, samples were used. I don't think anyone expected otherwise. Everyone needs to read Drew's Twitter question. Then read it again. He is asking whether it sounds like it is mostly/entirely samples. Not asking whether there are any samples at all. I am pretty sure that when Drew posed the question, he figured there were some samples used.

 

27 minutes ago, TGP said:

We've got some of that "continuing the argument through misinterpretation, willful or inadvertent" stuff that I hate going on here.

 

Please explain to me how I am misinterpreting anything.

 

27 minutes ago, TGP said:

Examine this statement with regards to yourself...

 

LOL what are you talking about?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

10 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

I started a discussion and Balfe started a snark fest complete with bad headphones and wax-filled ears.

 

No, you asked a question - a question that myself and others seem to agree was most likely meant to be "loaded" and stir shit up, although you nicely maintained plausible deniability - and Balfe responded as one might expect.

 

5 minutes ago, Locrius said:

 

Please explain to me how I am misinterpreting anything.

 

LOL what are you talking about?

 

You are going on and on about how people should be able to ask questions even if they have their own opinion - well, yeah.  Obviously.  That isn't at all the issue.

 

I believe you're fundamentally misunderstanding the initial question yourself because you're getting hung up on the actual content of it, when that's not what anyone is really arguing about I don't think.  The feeling is that the question itself was meant to be incendiary.  Again, there's no way we can know that for sure, but I think it's kind of obvious.

[Locrius 97]

Please explain what was wrong with the question, @TGP. My take on it is as follows:

@Drew listened to the soundtrack --> he thought the samples sounded especially front-and-center in this particular one --> he wondered if anyone else thought it sounded like the samples were the main/only thing (or if anyone heard any real orchestra hidden beneath the samples).

 

And a bunch of people are jumping down his throat for a perfectly reasonable question.

 

I mean, if I hear Johann Johannsson's MANDY score next month, and I ask if people think it sounds like mostly/entirely samples, should that stir up a big Internet storm too? Because one track of MANDY thus far has been released—and I love it!—but I can't tell if it's got a real orchestra thrown in the mix too. But the way people like you and @Arpy and @Koray Savas are reacting here, you'd think that it would be off-limits for me to wonder that. Why?

 

If I hear a video game score and can't tell whether or not it uses a real orchestra, or if it's just samples—am I not allowed to ask how other people think it sounds?

 

EDIT: To be perfectly honest w/ you by the way, it took me a few listens before I realized that FALLOUT did in fact utilize a real orchestra. I knew it was samples, but I didn't know to what extent. e.g. I wondered if there was an orchestra but it was mostly just buried beneath the samples, I wondered if it was only samples, etc.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

[Locrius 97]

26 minutes ago, TGP said:

I believe you're fundamentally misunderstanding the initial question yourself because you're getting hung up on the actual content of it, when that's not what anyone is really arguing about I don't think.  The feeling is that the question itself was meant to be incendiary.  Again, there's no way we can know that for sure, but I think it's kind of obvious.

 

So you're saying that I'm misunderstanding the question because I actually care about the factual content of the question, rather than your feelings about it? If I am reaching a conclusion based on what is actually there in the question, and you are reaching a conclusion based on your feelings of what it might mean... I'm pretty sure you're the one more likely to be misunderstanding.