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The Thematic Material of the Star Wars Saga (Possible Community Project?)


Faleel

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Yeah I'm listening to it now and I'm gonna say JW's memory is faulty in this case. The clearer association seems to be with the rebels. But what if he has always felt that it was the Falcon theme which would.again make Follow Me and The Falcon much more specific and not just "here's some SW musical nostalgia" for the fun of it.

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In fact, in the liner notes Williams calls it the "Rebel spaceship fanfare" in reference specifically to that ship, although he does use it later in the film as well. It is used a bit with the Millennium Falcon - once when it enters the Death Star, and again as it leaves it. More than scoring the Falcon, I believe Williams wanted to:

Not make the boarding of the Death Star too forboding by preceding it with triumphant music.

Book-ending the sequence, the results of which would come to serve the Rebellion.

 

By the time Empire Strikes Back came around, the term "Rebel Fanfare" stuck, and it is used quite consistently with the rebellion. The most uncharacteristic uses come from Sailbarge assault and the attack on the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi, where it is less a result of an intentional thematic reference and more the result of Williams lifting wholesale pieces of earlier compositions. This is also why, again uncharacteristically, the underlying accompaniment figure occurs in those places separately to the actual fanfare (this is the so-called "action ostinato").

 

Outside of the end-credits, its not really used the prequels except an odd statement that R2D2 merits. So yes, I would say the choice to often (but not always) apply it to the Falcon in the sequel scores is incongorous with the rest of the series, but not completely out-of-character, both in terms of previous applications of this motif and in Williams general approach to using leitmotives.

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8 hours ago, artguy360 said:

 I don't recall any major uses of it in ESB and I'm curious to revisit ROTJ later.

 

It plays in counterpoint with Lando's theme in "Lando's Palace"

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I hope I haven't mentioned this before.  I was thrilled when Giacchino used the original Star Wars ending for the end of Rogue One rather than the concert version / Return of the Jedi version.

 

At some point I realized that both endings are the Throne Room (as Fal noted).  One is just more upbeat and (I think) more explicit a reference (the Jedi one).  I'm on JWfan.  You all know this.

 

Then last summer I realized that what Fal calls the Throne Room Fanfare (development) is actually the first eight notes of the Main Title!  So it bookends Star Wars!  

 

Does anyone else agree with me on this?

 

(I saw a concert a couple of years ago where they played both the concert versions of the Main Title and The Throne Room.  Both of them used the Jedi ending.  I was bummed.  I would have hoped with the same finale to both pieces they could have used Star Wars for one and Jedi for the other.  Le sigh.)

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1 minute ago, Tallguy said:

Then last summer I realized that what Fal calls the Throne Room Fanfare (development) is actually the first eight notes of the Main Title! 

Hmmm, I called it that, because it seemed to be the same as the fanfare that opens The Throne Room, it could be the Main Title.

Are you referring to the opening brass after the big crash?

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 Both of them used the Jedi ending.  I was bummed.  I would have hoped with the same finale to both pieces they could have used Star Wars for one and Jedi for the other.  Le sigh.)

Well, the Jedi ending is actually from the 1978 concert arrangement, so of course they used it, Unfortunate as it is.

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20 minutes ago, Fal said:

Hmmm, I called it that, because it seemed to be the same as the fanfare that opens The Throne Room, it could be the Main Title.

Are you referring to the opening brass after the big crash?

Well, the Jedi ending is actually from the 1978 concert arrangement, so of course they used it, Unfortunate as it is.

 

Throne Room Fanfare is certainly more descriptive, I think.

 

I think I'm including the "crash" as the first note.  If you listen to take 20 of the main title it's a little more noticeable.  I wish I had a better musical vocabulary for this.

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16 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Interestingly, John Powell states in an interview that JW told him that he always intended the Rebel Fanfare to be a theme for the Falcon itself and that's how he approached using it. Suddenly, Follow Me and The Falcon from TFA make a lot more sense.

Source?

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  • 3 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Do you think that the part after 06:14 in 'The Battle Of Endor II' might be another appearance of the Dies Irae / Fate Motif? Could be a random coincidence, but it does make for interesting musical architecture if intentional.

 

Regarding the Dies Irae appearances in AOTC and ROTS, aren't these pretty much all variants of the Across The Stars section first occurring after 2:26 in the concert track? Sort of an Anakin's fall motif embedded within the love theme, what with that love affair being one of his main catalysts for falling? It might be intentionally linked to the OT Dies Irae motif, indeed. If the above mentioned ROTJ appearance is indeed this destiny motif, the music in that scene basically describes Luke coming to see that he almost chose the "fate" of his father by giving into his anger during the duel.

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2 hours ago, JJA said:

Do you think that the part after 06:14 in 'The Battle Of Endor II' might be another appearance of the Dies Irae / Fate Motif? Could be a random coincidence, but it does make for interesting musical architecture if intentional.

 

My feeling is probably not; sounds to me to be just an oscillating semitone, not enough to it to be even an accidental ref. to the Dies Irae. However, there are some pretty indisputable allusions in the Battle of Endor I (e.g. 7:23, 9:21).

 

Quote

 

Regarding the Dies Irae appearances in AOTC and ROTS, aren't these pretty much all variants of the Across The Stars section first occurring after 2:26 in the concert track? Sort of an Anakin's fall motif embedded within the love theme, what with that love affair being one of his main catalysts for falling? It might be intentionally linked to the OT Dies Irae motif, indeed. If the above mentioned ROTJ appearance is indeed this destiny motif, the music in that scene basically describes Luke coming to see that he almost chose the "fate" of his father by giving into his anger during the duel.

 

I'm of the opinion that  drawing motivic linkages between the middle section of Across the Stars and other parts of the score, particularly the Anakin's Descent stuff, is kind of overrated. Expressively, sure, it's dark, brooding, minor music, very much the same musical topic as what's heard during Anakin's confession. And there is an embedded 3-2-3-1 motion in the primary ATS theme (and developed prominently in that turbulent episode) -- that's a little whiff of the Dies Irae to be sure. But as far as the specific cue for the confession (and later Ep 3's lament), that sounds to me much more like a happy accident than a crafty allusion to ATS. 

I hesitate to call any of these Dies Irae-like moments leitmotivic, seeing as how Williams just seems to be fond of the melodic motion and inserts into lots and lots of his scores (CE3K, Presumed Innocent, Jurassic Park, Nixon, Sleepers, many, many more). That it crops up repeatedly in Star Wars is not dramatically insignificant, but I doubt it's part of some master compositional plan on JW's part. But who knows -- as far as I can tell, no interviewer has ever asked Williams about his fondness for that motif!

 

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6 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

I'm of the opinion that  drawing motivic linkages between the middle section of Across the Stars and other parts of the score, particularly the Anakin's Descent stuff, is kind of overrated. Expressively, sure, it's dark, brooding, minor music, very much the same musical topic as what's heard during Anakin's confession. And there is an embedded 3-2-3-1 motion in the primary ATS theme (and developed prominently in that turbulent episode) -- that's a little whiff of the Dies Irae to be sure. But as far as the specific cue for the confession (and later Ep 3's lament), that sounds to me much more like a happy accident than a crafty allusion to ATS. 

I hesitate to call any of these Dies Irae-like moments leitmotivic, seeing as how Williams just seems to be fond of the melodic motion and inserts into lots and lots of his scores (CE3K, Presumed Innocent, Jurassic Park, Nixon, Sleepers, many, many more). That it crops up repeatedly in Star Wars is not dramatically insignificant, but I doubt it's part of some master compositional plan on JW's part. But who knows -- as far as I can tell, no interviewer has ever asked Williams about his fondness for that motif!

 

Dude you're my soulmate right now; I've made both cases on separate occasions over the past month!

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Another observation: Isn't the "Leaving Mustafar" motif in The Immolation Scene merely a distorted version of the Force Theme? At least I never thought otherwise...

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On 10/20/2018 at 2:52 AM, Falstaft said:

I hesitate to call any of these Dies Irae-like moments leitmotivic, seeing as how Williams just seems to be fond of the melodic motion and inserts into lots and lots of his scores (CE3K, Presumed Innocent, Jurassic Park, Nixon, Sleepers, many, many more). That it crops up repeatedly in Star Wars is not dramatically insignificant, but I doubt it's part of some master compositional plan on JW's part. But who knows -- as far as I can tell, no interviewer has ever asked Williams about his fondness for that motif!

 

Exactly: it’s more part of Williams compositional style than it is a thematic device.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Exactly: it’s more part of Williams compositional style than it is a thematic device.

 

Wait what? I thought you were saying just a day ago that this was a deliberate thematic device on Williams' part.

 

Am I misunderstanding? 

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Great work Jerry, honestly I’m totally unable to analyze music that way.

 

And I’m a musician (well... I was in another life!)

 

But for me music remains magic... I simply refuse to analyze it, but I appreciate people who can do it.

 

It shows that behind the « magic « there is complex constructions, made of themes, variations, changes of keys, tones, intrumentations, tempo, etc.

 

I have a more organic approach to music I think.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Bespin said:

Great work Jerry, honestly I’m totally unable to analyze music that way.

 

And I’m a musician (well... I was in another life!)

 

But for me music remains magic... I simply refuse to analyze it, but I appreciate people who can do it.

 

It shows that behind the « magic « there is a complex constructions, made of themes, variations, change of tone, tempo, etc.

 

I have a more organic approach to music I think.

Yes, I too have a more organic approach, simplistic, simply embracing the sound. But I also recognize the power of themes and motifs. What brought me to actually do a breakdown of this score was simply for others and because it was packed with thematic material, which is often confusing. Thanks for your appreciation.

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9 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

....

 

17. Savareen Stand-Off (4:26)

0:33  Enfys Nest A Theme

0:54  Enfys Nest A Theme

1:21  Rebel Fanfare/Millennium Falcon (incomplete variation)

2:30  Enfys Nest A Theme

3:01  Enfys Nest A Theme

3:19  Secrets/Crimson Dawn Theme

3:34  Chewie's Theme (incomplete)

3:46  Love Theme (variation)

4:04  Heroic Theme (incomplete)

 

.....

 

I would add that at around 2:50 of Savareen Stand-Off the first few notes of the March of the Resistance are played. What do you think?

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What does Crait Hurried Strings mean/represent?  I thought Crait was the planet in TLJ. 

 

 

Also, I forget which track but I know I've heard Gollum's theme near the end of one of them. 

 

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11 hours ago, Demodex said:

What does Crait Hurried Strings mean/represent?  I thought Crait was the planet in TLJ. 

Crait Hurried Strings is the name I gave to this segment of the Adventures of Han suite which is reminiscent of this from The Last Jedi Battle of Crait.

13 hours ago, kelliwisethebrave said:

I would add that at around 2:50 of Savareen Stand-Off the first few notes of the March of the Resistance are played. What do you think?

I feel like that might be a little irrelevant, especially considering that L3's theme often evokes that sound. I'll take a look.

11 hours ago, Demodex said:

Also, I forget which track but I know I've heard Gollum's theme near the end of one of them. 

That doesn't count! :)

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1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Crait Hurried Strings is the name I gave to this segment of the Adventures of Han suite which is reminiscent of this from The Last Jedi Battle of Crait.

 

Damn, that is pretty similar. 

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42 minutes ago, Bofur01 said:

3:15 in Corellia Chase is Luke's theme

4:08 in Marauders Arrive is Chewie's theme, right?

 

And you're missing the Coaxium motif at 2:46 in Train Heist, 5:41 in Break Out, and 0:32 in Dice & Roll

Will check. Stand by. I wasn't sure about a coaxium motif.

54 minutes ago, Demodex said:

Damn, that is pretty similar. 

Yep.

 

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Quote

feel like that might be a little irrelevant, especially considering that L3's theme often evokes that sound. I'll take a look.

 

Back when the movie first came out I saw people connecting Enfys Nest saying "until finally the people resisted..." (1:41:44 in the movie) with those notes from the March of the Resistance being played. If it's similar to L3's theme that could also make sense as she was the one who started the droid rebellion. I think either would make for an interesting hypothesis.

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Another observation:

 

is the 0:24-0:37 section of "Return to Tatooine" in AOTC supposed to be a motif representing Anakin's childhood memories? In the film I clearly remember that section also playing when Anakin re-encounters Jar Jar at the start of the film (or at least, at some point during that whole scene). Or was that part tracked there from "Return to Tatooine"?

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Is that the motif that plays at the beginning of the Padme packing suitcases scene?  I think the same one plays at the beginning of their scene on the refugee transport ship. 

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I don't recall if I've mentioned this here or not.  I'm working on a kind of isolated score for the OT.  (It's not an iso score per se because I'm making small videos that can be watched in a playlist rather than the entire film with dead air where there's no music.)  

 

I had the idea of adding captions that will identify the theme or motif that is being played.  I might also add material from various liner notes.  I'll see.  It's a work in progress.

 

Anyway, aside from my own knowledge I'll be leaning on this thread heavily.

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  • 1 year later...

Hey @Falstaft, do you believe there's a motivic connection between these two moments?

 

The latter is especially prominent but it doesn't seem like an excerpt from an existing theme.

 

 

 

EDIT: this was probably the wrong thread to post this in :lol:

 

EDIT 2: Thanks @Jay, much better :wizard:

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0:22 here:

 

Looks like this one's already been noted in Frank's catalogue :)

 

26 minutes ago, Jay said:

Faleel calls the bit in your second video the Anakin/Schmi theme in the main post here

 

Certainly gives that motif/idea an unsettling context for the earlier appearance, considering it underscores Palpatine grooming Anakin.

 

If I had to draw a connection, Palpatine becomes Anakin's father figure in his mother's absence (which is only solidified after her death). But where this music feels solemn and tender in the latter appearance, the trumpet version is cold and unsettling.

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  • 4 weeks later...
3 hours ago, crumbs said:

Hey @Falstaft, has anyone identified that the Sith Dagger has its own motif that appears no less than 3 times in the film?

 

Yep!

 

Untitled.png

 

And the footnote: "The Sith Artifact motif is more of a cluster of related themes than an autonomous motif. The first idea relates more to the Wayfinder artifact; the second idea to the Dagger. Both are marked by a polychordal oscillation of semitonally related minor triads. They share a family resemblance with TFA's Map motif."

 

I debated whether to list the Wayfinder and Dagger motifs as seperate or not, and as you can see ultimately opted to split the difference and place them side-by-side. But an additional explanatory note is probably warranted, and I'll provide it in a future update.

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