The Force Awakens Rey's Theme – John Williams' Best Theme Yet?

[KK 3,307]

This happy ending is unbecoming of JWFan. I say we lock this thread for good so that what little "humanity" Steef actually has, never comes to light again!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What are you talking about? I am one of the most warm and human members in this place!

 

I feel, Kalaisan! I feel!

[Cantus Venti 13]

8 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

As I've said before, and others have (and as is evidenced by the extreme "grower" reaction to this score), this is exceptionally subtle music, the whole score.  This fellow may feel the widespread appeal is a kneejerk reaction to hype.  Well, I think his dismissal is because he just hasn't heard it enough yet.  I'll put any money down that this, along with some other oft-dismissed Williams scores, will be recognized as one of the masterworks of his career, rather than slowly fading as the Star Wars mania does.

 

I disagree with each point: the music being subtle, that I have not heard it much, and that it should "grow" a lot on me. While the score itself is muted and unpronounced during the majority of the movie, Rey's theme is more over-the-top and sloppy in conception. (and I can criticize my favorite composer.) I think the movie is what is special, the music is okay (or weak for JW's standards,) and it's not even close to comparing to his top stuff, for specific reasons and that it's not very unique or memorable. JW is very versitile, and the music from this movie is not: It sounds a lot more akin to his unimaginative contemporary peers, trying to deliver a short punch without much left to be desired in the end. The up-and-down a third is a good starting point for a nice melody, it does fit Rey, but it's already been done by JW. There is probably a kneejerk reaction to this movie and the emotions people are experiencing with it, which I love, but fanbases dissolve into supporting other things.

[Tom 4,653]

5 minutes ago, Cantus Venti said:

I disagree with each point: the music being subtle, that I have not heard it much, and that it is supposed to "grow" on me. The score itself is muted, but Rey's theme is more over-the-top and aimless. I think the movie is what is special, the music is okay (or weak for JW's standards,) and it's not even close to comparing to his top stuff, for specific reasons and that it's not very unique or memorable. The up-and-down a third is a good starting point for a nice melody, it does fit Rey, but it's already been done by JW. JW is very versitile, and the music from this movie is not. There is probably a kneejerk reaction to this movie and the emotions people are experiencing with it, which I love, but fanbases dissolve into supporting other things.

These kind of arguments, while annoying, have helped me to see just how brilliant the theme is.  I already knew it was special, but someone needing to "convince" the majority of JWfans that they are being deceived by emotion speaks, in some weird roundabout way, to the greatness of the piece.

[Cantus Venti 13]

Rather it shows a lack of criticism anyone has towards Williams when he comes out with a new score. Every new score is 'the next best thing,' which seems to be the pattern, and people are interpreting this music in light of the genius of Star Wars so that singular musical content gets amplified by the nostalgia in story and characters people are already experiencing with this film. Your argument does not really make sense to me, unless you can explain it?

[Demodex 557]

I agree with Cantus

[Balahkay 627]

Keep in mind that music doesn't have to be unique, groundbreaking or memorable to be considered good or even enjoyable.  It's all subjective anyway.  My enjoyment of music is based on how it makes me feel, not by the notes or how simple/complex it is.  I don't really care about that.  That said, I find Rey's theme to be very special and enjoyable.  Even after 3+ months, I still can't get it out of my head... not that I necessarily want it to leave. :-)

[Cantus Venti 13]

I appreciate the music of this film. (even though the movie dominated and the music did not come through well,) when you listen by itself and search its cues in the film, it is a beautiful experience, but that's like all of Williams' scores. He is the best.

 

29 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

My enjoyment of music is based on how it makes me feel, not by the notes or how simple/complex it is.  I don't really care about that.

 

Sure, these explicit quantifications are more to try and explain why what he's done in the past is so good in comparison to his contemporaries, to characterize the essence of his great skills or neglect at times thereof, even if we can't always put words on it. For instance, you say it makes you feel a certain way, but it is once you describe your feelings about the music that is when you are forced to put words on it. The only reason to put words and quantifications on music is to have a discussion about it.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

2 hours ago, Cantus Venti said:

 

I disagree with each point: the music being subtle, that I have not heard it much, and that it should "grow" a lot on me. While the score itself is muted and unpronounced during the majority of the movie, Rey's theme is more over-the-top and sloppy in conception. (and I can criticize my favorite composer.) I think the movie is what is special, the music is okay (or weak for JW's standards,) and it's not even close to comparing to his top stuff, for specific reasons and that it's not very unique or memorable. JW is very versitile, and the music from this movie is not: It sounds a lot more akin to his unimaginative contemporary peers, trying to deliver a short punch without much left to be desired in the end. The up-and-down a third is a good starting point for a nice melody, it does fit Rey, but it's already been done by JW. There is probably a kneejerk reaction to this movie and the emotions people are experiencing with it, which I love, but fanbases dissolve into supporting other things.

 

Do you like Lincoln?

[Quintus 5,399]

19 hours ago, Cantus Venti said:

I think it's definitely more the love of Star Wars, the passion for this new movie and Rey's character that gets people enjoying this new soundtrack and listening over and over. 

 

This doesn't apply to me at all, sorry. I think TFA is a solid and enjoyable but wholly unremarkable movie; and the new score from Williams, whilst very good, was under serviced by Abrams and by a unsatisfying album presentation. I still love Rey's theme. I think it is soaring and pure in its 'Starwarsiness', and it is one of about 4 tracks from the CD which I NEVER skip. 

 

19 hours ago, Cantus Venti said:

Hmm well, I believe the theme will be easily forgotten actually, just not the character. (Actually the theme is already easily forgotten. I don't hear any film geeks humming it or remembering it.)

 

Neither do I. Then again I don't hang out with film geeks and I wouldn't know where to find them, humming film themes to themselves (and at the precise moment I entered their general vicinity). Where should I start looking? 

 

Tbh, I find the piece of music to be more memorable than the character in this instance. Don't get me wrong I thought Daisy Ridley did a commendable job and I like the character of Rey, but I don't really buy into the hype surrounding her, I don't really see anything notably special about this particular piece of casting - as of yet. She's a nice, reliable addition to the universe and I'm not complaining. So far though I'd say she's less Sigourney Weaver and more Keira Knightley. 

 

Is it possible your generalisations and theories are just inaccurate? 

 

3 hours ago, Cantus Venti said:

Rather it shows a lack of criticism anyone has towards Williams when he comes out with a new score. Every new score is 'the next best thing,' which seems to be the pattern

 

Ah, this is a total fallacy and obviously the conclusion of someone with very little experience of JWFan. 

 

Never mind then.

[Cantus Venti 13]

Well, first of all I ask, why does everything have to return back to JWFan? There are places outside this forum, where music is celebrated by fans galore. John Williams in particular and he deserves it: His music is better than the movies, I don't disagree with you. Even the original Star Wars music was better than its movie. John Williams is a genius. Even a great movie like The Force Awakens can't compete at his level. What I don't agree with is the highly flexible standards people use to say this is the 'best JW score ever,' one that just came out. People have an incredible way of bending their perspective to fit their ideals, and then a couple years later abandon what they thought. It happens all the time and I know it happens here more than you'd like to admit at the moment.

 

Why don't we wait a good five years and then see about how perfect everyone thinks this music is for Williams, deal? Because it seems everyone has forgotten about his other 100+ scores, and this seems the only way people will regain objectivity and not become highly personal and defensive.

[Incanus 5,714]

As a point of interest why should we become objective about these things and not view music on a highly personal level?

[Cantus Venti 13]

You should view music on a personal level. This is not the kind of 'personal' one means when saying people get overly defensive and personal about something they're currently in-love with. Instead when I say people will become objective 5 years from now, that means taking into consideration all things equally, that, perhaps once this Rey's theme gets old to more people like it has for me, they will finally view it as a collective part of Williams massive repertoire instead of  just "The best piece ever" because it's new and amazing. The music is great. The hype is killing me. I know that Williams is a lot better than this score. The industry who has been holding his inspiration back with their great lack of care for film music nowadays, has stripped an amount of his passion and dedication for writing. We've seen Williams write incredible scores in the past 15 years only to see production quiet them. He is still the best there is, but these are no longer the highly inspirational days of E.T. and Jurassic Park to have a desire to showcase art, and Williams no longer operates under this mindset. I believe he has much better things going on these days than these pet project scores.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alex? Is that you?

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Cantus Venti said:

Well, first of all I ask, why does everything have to return back to JWFan? There are places outside this forum, where music is celebrated by fans galore. John Williams in particular and he deserves it: His music is better than the movies, I don't disagree with you. Even the original Star Wars music was better than its movie. John Williams is a genius. Even a great movie like The Force Awakens can't compete at his level. What I don't agree with is the highly flexible standards people use to say this is the 'best JW score ever,' one that just came out. People have an incredible way of bending their perspective to fit their ideals, and then a couple years later abandon what they thought. It happens all the time and I know it happens here more than you'd like to admit at the moment.

 

Why don't we wait a good five years and then see about how perfect everyone thinks this music is for Williams, deal? Because it seems everyone has forgotten about his other 100+ scores, and this seems the only way people will regain objectivity and not become highly personal and defensive.

 

Is this a response to me? Because I think you're spouting pure shite mate. 

 

You don't know JWFan and you certainly don't know me. Knock it off with the sweeping generalisations you are making about people you just met here, because it won't get you far you can be certain of that. 

 

 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He seems to be the breed of Williams fan that thinks he sees the Maestro's true brilliance, rather then the rest of the smelly massive herd that worships him just because he is the "tune-meister" who's notes are whistled by cinema goers everywhere.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, they've been ten a penny here over the years though haven't they. 

 

And how long now till Tamagotchi turns up to express how off-putting and awfully difficult he finds this direct conversational style is to deal with? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

28 minutes ago, Quintus said:

And how long now till Tamagotchi turns up to express how off-putting and awfully difficult he finds this direct conversational style is to deal with? 

 

Who?

[Quintus 5,399]

He's very a sensitive poster. 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

15 hours ago, Cantus Venti said:

You should view music on a personal level. This is not the kind of 'personal' one means when saying people get overly defensive and personal about something they're currently in-love with. Instead when I say people will become objective 5 years from now, that means taking into consideration all things equally, that, perhaps once this Rey's theme gets old to more people like it has for me, they will finally view it as a collective part of Williams massive repertoire instead of  just "The best piece ever" because it's new and amazing. The music is great. The hype is killing me. I know that Williams is a lot better than this score. The industry who has been holding his inspiration back with their great lack of care for film music nowadays, has stripped an amount of his passion and dedication for writing. We've seen Williams write incredible scores in the past 15 years only to see production quiet them. He is still the best there is, but these are no longer the highly inspirational days of E.T. and Jurassic Park to have a desire to showcase art, and Williams no longer operates under this mindset. I believe he has much better things going on these days than these pet project scores.

 

Well, I think at this point, most people in this thread, those debating with you included, do not think it is the best piece of music ever or even Williams' best theme ever, even if the title says otherwise (which I think was just a bit of a joke to begin with?).  So, if you're intention is specifically to disprove it is the best thing he has ever written, I think most here, myself included, would disagree with you.  I think most people here do think it is an extremely good theme, though, so perhaps there is still the difference of opinion.  I certainly love it, and I have listened to TFA pretty much every day since it came out, which is more than I can say of any other JW score this many months out in my little over a decade as a fan.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Loert 2,511]

3 hours ago, Taikomochi said:

 

Well, I think at this point, most people in this thread, those debating with you included, do not think it is the best piece of music ever or even Williams' best theme ever, even if the title says otherwise (which I think was just a bit of a joke to begin with?).

 

Yep, I like it but I don't think it's his best theme. Nothing beats The Brannigan.

[Balahkay 627]

I don't think it's his best theme, either, but it's the best theme I've heard in the past 10 years.  How do you evaluate whether one theme is better than another anyway?  We all have our own idea of what is considered best.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its excellent!

 

And that's enough for me. Its not important if it's his fourth best theme or his twenty-sixth.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

But it's not the twenty-sixth, though, is it? That'd be preposterous.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It doesn't matter

[mrbellamy 6,278]

It's not even in the official Top 98 ½ Williams themes (with half a point for plagiarism taken from the Star Wars and ET main themes and "The Face of Pan")! How absurd!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

12 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It doesn't matter

 

Yes, yes, of course. But it's not the twenty-sixth, right?

[Quintus 5,399]

12 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

I don't think it's his best theme, either, but it's the best theme I've heard in the past 10 years.  How do you evaluate whether one theme is better than another anyway?  We all have our own idea of what is considered best.

 

Whoa, common sense. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

 

14 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

How do you evaluate whether one theme is better than another anyway?

Easy, if you overhear film geeks humming it, it's good. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so let's agree to disagree, because the long and short of it is, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.  

[Taikomochi 1,136]

16 hours ago, Mr. Big said:

 

Easy, if you overhear film geeks humming it, it's good. 

 

Everytime I hear someone say a theme is only good if it's hummable, I cringe.  Especially when they then cite non-melodic scores like The Dark Knight which you probably wouldn't hum anyways...

[Cantus Venti 13]

Rey's Theme in several parts (where it mimicks The Force Theme) reminds me harmonically and stylistically of The Time Machine theme, almost like Williams was going for a similar effect (?) albeit not so metered and catchy. Although in this case, I love The Time Machine theme and movie. Nowhere as well-orchestrated as John Williams, but a lot more wondrous, unique and emotionally touching.

 

 

I love the part in the music where Emma's portrait in the necklace fades to dust.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Ok.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That is a good score, though.  The little choral accents in the section around a minute in, very Horner-ish.  Lovely stuff.

 

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

that is quite lovely. could do without the 'its similar but not as good lol' though. pointing out possible musical influences is intriguing but you generally don't let favouritism play into it or a lot of what you're trying to say will go ignored (case and point Mr. Big's response).

[Cantus Venti 13]

Let's not get our panties too in a bunch when others share and hint at their tastes, DarthDementous. That's just what happens in art forums, specifically in threads asking the question "is this theme good?"

[DarthDementous 1,059]

On 4/2/2016 at 2:36 AM, Cantus Venti said:

Let's not get our panties too in a bunch when others share and hint at their tastes, DarthDementous. That's just what happens in art forums, specifically in threads asking the question "is this theme good?"

oh I'm not bothered by it, but you clearly want your comparison to be acknowledged. unless you remain neutral you'll keep receiving responses of 'Ok' and I'm sure you don't want that.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 6:41 AM, Cantus Venti said:

Hmm well, I believe the theme will be easily forgotten actually, just not the character. (Actually the theme is already easily forgotten. I don't hear any film geeks humming it or remembering it.)

 I believe you're wrong. I hum it all the time and I've been a film geek longer than anyone here.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not close enough to any film score geeks to hear then humming it. It's a really silly thing to say.

[Balahkay 627]

Yes, music doesn't need to be "hummable" to be considered good.  In fact, there's a lot of music and songs out there that are memorable but arguably terrible!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Rey's theme is very hummable though. 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Just now, Stefancos said:

Rey's theme is very hummable though. 

And it's exceptionally good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!

[Marcus 390]

On 2.4.2016 at 5:49 AM, Cantus Venti said:

Rey's Theme in several parts (where it mimicks The Force Theme) reminds me harmonically and stylistically of The Time Machine theme, almost like Williams was going for a similar effect (?) albeit not so metered and catchy. Although in this case, I love The Time Machine theme and movie. Nowhere as well-orchestrated as John Williams, but a lot more wondrous, unique and emotionally touching.

 

 

I love the part in the music where Emma's portrait in the necklace fades to dust.

 

 

I don't think this emotionality is what Williams was aiming for in "Rey's Theme" at all, though.

 

Your example, which seems heavily influenced by Goldsmith's "The Edge", is very broad and direct, really putting emphasis on the sort of "open plain wonder" (later just another musical shorthand for big moments) that has become culturally embedded in the minor tonic - major subdominant progression. 

 

For Williams, that progression is simply there as a passing reference to the Force theme. The core of Rey's theme is about something else entirely: driven-ness and self-discovery, musically made present through the ever-shifting guises of the main melody, as well as the omnipresent undulating minor third motif.

 

 

[mrbellamy 6,278]

On 3/30/2016 at 6:41 AM, Cantus Venti said:

Hmm well, I believe the theme will be easily forgotten actually, just not the character. (Actually the theme is already easily forgotten. I don't hear any film geeks humming it or remembering it.)

 

 

[nightscape94 965]

Well that's encouraging!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Forgeries!  Hoaxes!  Flukes!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Professor Lockhart will perform a memory charm and we'll forget. 

[mrbellamy 6,278]

What I do wonder, though, is if all SW fans are on the same page with what actually is "the theme" lol. Because I have seen the little intro figures mentioned quite a lot, people talking about the "Harry Potter bells" and the tune that "makes you want to do a little jig", those actually may be sticking with people more than the theme proper, funnily enough. Even with me it took a few listens to really sort that material out at first and figure out how they're kinda prioritized, just because of how distinctive those little decorations are. 

 

But I mean, whatever. People are listening.