Will 2,215 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 56 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said: Hmm probably because I have been rendering the videos without any actual visual content (and rendering at 1x1 resolution, 1% quality etc.) Is there any way for you to make them the same file type as all the other cues you've posted in the past months (which open fine)? Thanks so much by the way for all the cues you've posted. Between Jason LeBlanc's analysis and your film and documentary rips, this is probably the thread of the year! 8 hours ago, Datameister said: Now that I am listening more closely to the Target features, I'm hearing part of a cue that was probably written for one of Finn's saber fights, probably the one with the stormtrooper. And hot damn, is it good. Should have been on the OST. Is this something Fennel Ka has posted in this thread? Your description makes me really want to hear that cue, but I didn't get the Target version of the film (I got the Amazon digital), and I couldn't find the Target extras on YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Looks like he did: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9TDFMWXNOZjF6bUU/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted May 19, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2016 On 29/04/2016 at 4:01 AM, Datameister said: Combing through the Blu-ray audio, I'm coming to realize just how much editorial mangling this score suffered. While some cues are fairly intact, a lot of scenes just have a bunch of different cues tracked in on top of each other, and there are numerous spots where the music is dialed out completely for a while. Pretty crazy. Star Wars' legacy of hacking wonderful scores to bits lives on, haha. I think it's kind of inevitable that music gets sliced and diced (if not ripped to pieces) in the current method of post-production. It's a kind of miracle that JW still tries to find ways to keep his own compositions intact through the process while still serving the film and it's even a bigger miracle that there are directors like Spielberg who try to protect the musical integrity even during the editing and mixing phase. But let's be honest, these are not the rules anymore, it's really the exception. Directors and editors (and producers) like to tinker and alter the film until the last minute possibile, hence they need the composer to be ready to tinker with the music as well until possible, and even then, they will continue tinkering in Avid and Protools. It's part of how movies are made nowadays (it's also one of the main reason why it's better to work in the electronic realm and record the acoustic parts in separate stems). I don't think the concept of "locked cut" exists anymore. So how someone with the scoring approach like JW (i.e. pencil, paper and stopwatch, writing to the film with lots of sync points and a sense of musical narrative) can survive the madness? I don't know, honestly. Probably the unsually long and staggered schedule he got on TFA was the way Abrams tried to help him, giving him ample time to work on revisions and new music. However, this didn't save the music from being furtherly edited, dialed out or tracked whenever it was needed. My guess is that it's part of how obsessive some (if not most) filmmakers have become to small details such as a 20-seconds musical transition. Smeltington, crumbs and Will 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 21 hours ago, Datameister said: Looks like he did: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9TDFMWXNOZjF6bUU/view?usp=sharing Thanks. Although the quality of the rip is terrible. Hopefully someone gets that feature onto YouTube -- of course you'd hear dialogue over the music, but the music would not be distorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Yeah the center channel removal absolutely massacres the sound quality of the digital-only features. It still does a number on the Blu-ray audio, but it's not that distorted. For my own listening, I use some tricks to simulate a bit of stereo space, and then I use my imagination and my memory of what the undistorted music sounds like under all the dialogue and sound effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 is there really doubts that https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9cEg3TElmWGdUdW8/view?pref=2&pli=1 is Williams? for one, it sounds exactly like the LA orchestra and like Williams and the rest of the TFA score. in fact, it sounds very similar to the Battle of Jakku cue, the start reminds me of the beginning of the music when Kylo Ren descends from his shuttle, leading me to believe its an alternate score for a First Order scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 I don't think anyone thinks that cue isn't Williams. To me, it's very clearly an alternate for one of the early scenes. Not a doubt in my mind that this is Williams' work. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 I was watching ET tonight and I noticed heavy similarities between some of the mid-film ET-and-Elliot bonding music and the mellow cue that some think isn't Williams. Possibly evidence that it is Williams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Is anyone by any chance working on a film edit of TFA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 There may be some superficial similarities, but I still think the harmonic language isn't quite right for it to be Williams. Could be wrong, but that's what my gut's telling me. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Just for the record, here's the ET bit that reminded me of the possibly Williams, possibly not TFA documentary cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 On 5/22/2016 at 6:48 AM, Demodex said: Is anyone by any chance working on a film edit of TFA? Many people in this thread seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Does GoodMusician still post here? He made excellent compilations for Episodes 2 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 He rarely posts here anymore. Fennel Ka has made an edit, try PMing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Well, I have started my complete score analysis. I hope to be done by early July, but we'll see. It's a massive project; who knows if I'll even finish, if I don't I'll just post what I have. But I'll try! Don't expect any groundbreaking revelations about the score; a lot of what I'm doing is compiling others' observations. My goal is for people new to the TFA score to have one definitive place to read about it rather than having to comb through various threads on the forums. JacksonElmore and Pieter Boelen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will 2,215 Posted June 2, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2016 With the help of Fennel Ka, I think I have unlocked one of the mysteries of this score!!! I could barely contain my excitement when I realized this because it was something that had been bothering me for a while. Basically, the First Order has a theme -- but it's not the one that Marcus was calling their theme! I'll explain this (it will get a little long but bear with me). Back last summer (early June), I read a Making Star Wars report (http://makingstarwars.net/2015/06/details-on-a-few-unique-tracks-from-star-wars-the-force-awakens-score/) that said the following: Quote Marches have been recorded but so far there is no “Imperial March,” but the “First Order March” is very much the “thing” they are recording. Just to elaborate, it is not really called the “First Order March” but the new march is for the First Order sequences in the film (and is not the classic theme associated with Darth Vader we know from the Original Trilogy). The sequence in question pertains to the “Parade Grounds” set where the First Order’s size and might is shown off and when their Star Destroyers approach the battle against the Resistance. This was very early in the sessions -- in fact, I believe only one or two had occurred when this article was written. So keep in mind that it's certainly possible for the score to change a lot between then and the film's release. Also keep in mind that Making Star Wars has proven to be an extremely reliable source for Star Wars production news. Now, when the TFA score was released, I wondered: What was this "First Order March"? We couldn't look to the Parade Grounds sequence (Hux's booming speech), because if there was ever music there, it didn't make it into the final film. And while there were multiple villain themes, none of them ever sounded like a march. For this reason and others I will mention later, I began to think this report wasn't accurate. Then we started to hear unused music in documentaries. One particular bit ripped by Fennel Ka (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9NXlLWWQxRVQ0WGs/view?pref=2&pli=1) sounded like a march in the beginning portion. And that part contained a four-note musical idea heard other times in the score. I didn't make the connection then. But in Fennel Ka's edit, he has the music from the beginning of the above Google Drive file to the moment it stops for Han to yell as the cue, "The Last Day of the Republic." And it suddenly clicked for me, as I realized that this music was almost certainly indented for that scene, the Parade Grounds scene. That four-note idea is the First Order theme. The cue "The Last Day of the Republic" would have played over the Parade Grounds sequence. As far as I know that's the only time it appears in march form, but it appears other times in other forms. The First Order theme can be heard at :20-:27 of "Preparing For Assault" (also known as "Precinct 47" or "The Plan") and :17-:20, :24-:27, and :50-:53 of the "BIG unknown Unused Cue/Alternate," (as posted in the Google Drive link above) as well as during the moment the First Order ships return to the Star Destroyer after the Attack on the Jakku Village (don't have the time stamp at the moment). It can also be heard when Finn and Poe are about to enter the TIE fighter to escape the Star Destroyer (that's a more subtle performance, I can give time stamp tomorrow if you want). The theme Marcus spotted that he thought was the First Order theme (heard on horns over string ostinato as transports zoom toward screen in opening sequence) is probably actually Snoke's theme, which makes sense given that the majority of its appearances are in Snoke's scenes, I believe. With what I have discovered to be the actual First Order theme, it's possible it was in the film more early on and that's why MSW said it was the "thing" being recorded. Maybe they thought it was better to make Ren's primary theme the centerpiece villain theme. Also, many had discounted the MSW's report because of the apparent absence in the score of much of what it described, but I think what I figured out makes it possible that some of the other things described are just in alternates we haven't heard yet (like the jazzy big band piece and operatic cantilena). I may have forgotten something because it's late and I'm tired, if you have any questions please ask. Marcus, Jay and JacksonElmore 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Nice detailed post but that particular article from Making Star Wars has literally no accurate information in it concerning music that appears in the score. I know there are alternates and new music and cut music etc, but Rey's Theme does not sound like Anakin's theme, there is no jazzy big band number, and there is no beautiful choral piece. MSW has gotten better over time but they have been wrong before and I think someone was fooling them with that article. Also, pretty much nothing leaked from the scoring sessions ever again after that except for some photos that were quickly taken down so I don't believe that particular report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Interesting. I tried to put the music in the scene, but as we still don't know much about the recording sessions, I wasn't quite sure where to put each segment, so I had to do some guess-work. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4TAY1QZsUSYS1NGNjBRa3BkWjA Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 10 minutes ago, Manikin Skywalker said: Interesting. I tried to put the music in the scene, but as we still don't know much about the recording sessions, I wasn't quite sure where to put each segment, so I had to do some guess-work. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4TAY1QZsUSYS1NGNjBRa3BkWjA Why is Hux shouting "Ben!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 14 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said: Why is Hux shouting "Ben!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 916 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I think the music for that scene would have started later than that. It doesn't match up at all with what's on the screen. The ending definitely puts me in mind of seeing the Stakiller weapon's cannon destroying the Hosnian system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I'm guessing the cue starts right after the Starkiller is shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviazn 273 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Interesting. I've been convinced that was a First Order theme for a while, but if the parade grounds is indeed the intended scene—is it not also possible that this is actually a motif for Starkiller Base itself? That would make it an equivalent to the four-note Death Star motif. And its use at the end of the Jakku village sequence as the landing craft fly away from the backdrop of Jakku would be a direct mirror of the Death Star motif's first appearance as the star cruiser flies away from Tatooine at the end of the opening Imperial attack in ANH—in both cases, not corresponding to what's directly on screen, but signifying their eventual destination as the scene transitions. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Not to mention its use as the X-wings are showing up near the base. As far as I'm concerned, that motif is most closely associated with the base. Will and aviazn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 16 hours ago, artguy360 said: Nice detailed post but that particular article from Making Star Wars has literally no accurate information in it concerning music that appears in the score. I know there are alternates and new music and cut music etc, but Rey's Theme does not sound like Anakin's theme, there is no jazzy big band number, and there is no beautiful choral piece. MSW has gotten better over time but they have been wrong before and I think someone was fooling them with that article. Also, pretty much nothing leaked from the scoring sessions ever again after that except for some photos that were quickly taken down so I don't believe that particular report. Rey's theme sounds enough like Anakin's for a source to describe it that way, IMO. And how do we know there's no jazzy big band number? Maybe it's unused and unheard thus far. In regards to the "beautiful sustained voice over melody" piece described, that could be an unused version of "The Starkiller," since MSW says it's tied to the snow planet. 8 hours ago, aviazn said: Interesting. I've been convinced that was a First Order theme for a while, but if the parade grounds is indeed the intended scene—is it not also possible that this is actually a motif for Starkiller Base itself? That would make it an equivalent to the four-note Death Star motif. And its use at the end of the Jakku village sequence as the landing craft fly away from the backdrop of Jakku would be a direct mirror of the Death Star motif's first appearance as the star cruiser flies away from Tatooine at the end of the opening Imperial attack in ANH—in both cases, not corresponding to what's directly on screen, but signifying their eventual destination as the scene transitions. You may actually be right. Here's what I had thought before you brought up that idea: I thought there indeed was a Starkiller Base theme. But I didn't think it was the one used in the unknown cue possibly intended for the parade grounds sequence. Instead, I thought the Starkiller Base theme was the one heard several times in the third act as the heroes traverse the planet. One example is in the cue "Group Enters Base," where it is heard a few times: However, I did just realize that one of the appearances of the four-note TFA theme being debated is in the cue "Precinct 47," near the beginning. That cue plays over the discussion in Resistance headquarters about how to attack Starkiller Base. (I don't know exactly what's on screen when the theme plays). Obviously, though, that usage of the theme could also indicate that it's the First Order theme because the First Order runs Starkiller Base, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the Starkiller Base theme. What makes me still think the four-note theme in question is for the First Order in general is that it plays when Finn and Poe look up at the TIE fighter when they are about to enter it to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 17 hours ago, Manikin Skywalker said: Interesting. I tried to put the music in the scene, but as we still don't know much about the recording sessions, I wasn't quite sure where to put each segment, so I had to do some guess-work. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4TAY1QZsUSYS1NGNjBRa3BkWjA Nice work! There's something I should point out: the music here ... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9NXlLWWQxRVQ0WGs/view ... may well be all one cue, but it could also be two cues (with the break between the two occurring when Han yells "Ben!") -- meaning that the music heard in that Drive file might not all be intended for the same scene, although it certainly could be. @Gistech There's another thing I forgot to mention in my initial post on the matter. The Drive file I linked to in the preceding paragraph of this post (the same file in my initial post) actually edits out some music in the portion from the beginning to Han's yell. The end of Hux's speech goes with no music in Manikin's music-to-picture attempt. But interestingly, if the missing music is restored (which Fennel Ka tried to do here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9MWZLV1p2anN0RVE/view), then the timing of the music lines up more or less exactly to the picture from the beginning of the scene until the end of Hux's speech. I've been imagining the dramatic building music stopping and then Hux yelling "Fire!" It really seems like it would work well. In general, though, I kinda think the "building" music with the possible First Order theme doesn't work as well with the scene as silence, which is what we got in the final film. However, it's possible that back in early June the film was supposed to cut back and forth from Hux's speech to the First Order approaching Takodana to attack, in which case the building music would fit really well with the scene, I think. 7 hours ago, Datameister said: Not to mention its use as the X-wings are showing up near the base. As far as I'm concerned, that motif is most closely associated with the base. You mean in "The Bombing Run" opening? Nice, I hadn't made that connection! Still, though, since the base is owned by the First Order, it's hard to be sure which Williams is trying to represent. I wonder what's on screen at that exact moment we hear the theme in that cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 21 hours ago, Bill said: With the help of Fennel Ka, I think I have unlocked one of the mysteries of this score!!! I could barely contain my excitement when I realized this because it was something that had been bothering me for a while. Basically, the First Order has a theme -- but it's not the one that Marcus was calling their theme! I'll explain this (it will get a little long but bear with me). Back last summer (early June), I read a Making Star Wars report (http://makingstarwars.net/2015/06/details-on-a-few-unique-tracks-from-star-wars-the-force-awakens-score/) that said the following: This was very early in the sessions -- in fact, I believe only one or two had occurred when this article was written. So keep in mind that it's certainly possible for the score to change a lot between then and the film's release. Also keep in mind that Making Star Wars has proven to be an extremely reliable source for Star Wars production news. Now, when the TFA score was released, I wondered: What was this "First Order March"? We couldn't look to the Parade Grounds sequence (Hux's booming speech), because if there was ever music there, it didn't make it into the final film. And while there were multiple villain themes, none of them ever sounded like a march. For this reason and others I will mention later, I began to think this report wasn't accurate. Then we started to hear unused music in documentaries. One particular bit ripped by Fennel Ka (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9NXlLWWQxRVQ0WGs/view?pref=2&pli=1) sounded like a march in the beginning portion. And that part contained a four-note musical idea heard other times in the score. I didn't make the connection then. But in Fennel Ka's edit, he has the music from the beginning of the above Google Drive file to the moment it stops for Han to yell as the cue, "The Last Day of the Republic." And it suddenly clicked for me, as I realized that this music was almost certainly indented for that scene, the Parade Grounds scene. That four-note idea is the First Order theme. The cue "The Last Day of the Republic" would have played over the Parade Grounds sequence. As far as I know that's the only time it appears in march form, but it appears other times in other forms. The First Order theme can be heard at :20-:27 of "Preparing For Assault" (also known as "Precinct 47" or "The Plan") and :17-:20, :24-:27, and :50-:53 of the "BIG unknown Unused Cue/Alternate," (as posted in the Google Drive link above) as well as during the moment the First Order ships return to the Star Destroyer after the Attack on the Jakku Village (don't have the time stamp at the moment). It can also be heard when Finn and Poe are about to enter the TIE fighter to escape the Star Destroyer (that's a more subtle performance, I can give time stamp tomorrow if you want). The theme Marcus spotted that he thought was the First Order theme (heard on horns over string ostinato as transports zoom toward screen in opening sequence) is probably actually Snoke's theme, which makes sense given that the majority of its appearances are in Snoke's scenes, I believe. With what I have discovered to be the actual First Order theme, it's possible it was in the film more early on and that's why MSW said it was the "thing" being recorded. Maybe they thought it was better to make Ren's primary theme the centerpiece villain theme. Also, many had discounted the MSW's report because of the apparent absence in the score of much of what it described, but I think what I figured out makes it possible that some of the other things described are just in alternates we haven't heard yet (like the jazzy big band piece and operatic cantilena). I may have forgotten something because it's late and I'm tired, if you have any questions please ask. Thanks for sharing! The two four-note motifs are actually inversions of each other, although the one that begins with the descending minor second cleverly relates to Snoke as well. The cue you've shared seems to build towards Han & Kylo Ren's confrontation ("Ben!"), and the fantastic climax based on the Force theme is probably what was referenced in the reports of Williams asking the trombones to give him something "louder than anything Verdi's got". Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 18 minutes ago, Marcus said: Thanks for sharing! The two four-note motifs are actually inversions of each other, although the one that begins with the descending minor second cleverly relates to Snoke as well. The cue you've shared seems to build towards Han & Kylo Ren's confrontation ("Ben!"), and the fantastic climax based on the Force theme is probably what was referenced in the reports of Williams asking the trombones to give him something "louder than anything Verdi's got". Woah, I thought they might be inversions but I wasn't sure, that's awesome! Quote the one that begins with the descending minor second cleverly relates to Snoke as well. You're referring to the theme heard on horns over militaristic ostinato in the opening sequence when you say "the one," right? Because not only does that relate to Snoke, I think it might be his theme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Bill said: Woah, I thought they might be inversions but I wasn't sure, that's awesome! You're referring to the theme heard on horns over militaristic ostinato in the opening sequence when you say "the one," right? Yes, that's the one! Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 37 minutes ago, Marcus said: The cue you've shared seems to build towards Han & Kylo Ren's confrontation ("Ben!") Fennel Ka ripped that music (and the yell of "Ben!") from a documentary (Secrets of the Force Awakens). That music does play over the Han's Death scene in the documentary, but we can't be sure that some/all of that music was intended for that scene in the film. The documentary editors could have just done some clever editing. It's being debated, as you may have seen, whether the building music is building to Han and Kylo's confrontation or building to the firing of Starkiller Base on the Hosnian system. We need the sheet music/recording sessions! Quote and the fantastic climax based on the Force theme is probably what was referenced in the reports of Williams asking the trombones to give him something "louder than anything Verdi's got". You might be right! I remember that report got me so excited for this score. Naturally, it seems as if the cue teased may have been unreleased, at least until that documentary. There's debate about whether this Force theme climax was intended for the firing of the Starkiller on the Hosnian system, or whether it was to play over Ren killing Han. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I have no doubt it was for Han's death. It's too strongly melodramatic to belong anywhere else. You can even hear a bit of the preceding alternate music just before the saber ignition, too, as I recall - some of which was used in the film and FYC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I do wonder why Han's death would be underscored with the Force Theme. Han Solo and the Princess would have made more sense. Or Leia's theme perhaps? But why the Force Theme for a non-Force character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 6 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said: I do wonder why Han's death would be underscored with the Force Theme. Han Solo and the Princess would have made more sense. Or Leia's theme perhaps? But why the Force Theme for a non-Force character? "It's an energy field created by all living things." Not saying you're wrong, but technically this could be used as an excuse to score any character with the Force Theme Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 And of course, we've certainly seen Williams play fast and loose with his leitmotifs before. Leia's theme when Obi-Wan dies, Yoda's theme when Luke's in Cloud City, you name it. Heck, consider the famed binary sunset cue - is the Force really that involved in the scene? Sometimes Williams just uses whatever melody sounds right. While they obviously decided not to use this particular cue, I do think it constitutes a valid approach to scoring Han's death. Pieter Boelen and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,306 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 The Force Theme makes perfect sense for the moment; more about Kylo Ren than Han Solo. The Dark Side takes over his senses and destroys what remained of the light side within him; the cue is a heartbreaking painting of the Force Theme literally being "Torn Apart" by the treachery of a son so lost in himself that he murders his own father. Not to mention the obvious connections to Luke and his failed Jedi training are coming into play here, as well. Alas, they probably found the cue unnecessarily overt for the moment, which is dramatic enough without the music needing to hit you over the head that you're witnessing a momentously tragic betrayal. It's Williams sinking back into prequel trilogy musical storytelling mode, when he spent the rest of the film supporting the drama rather than having to create it. They made the right decision, even if it's one hell of an unreleased cue. Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Jay, your breakdowns never cease to amaze me. This will make things much easier. THANK YOU. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,911 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 17 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said: I do wonder why Han's death would be underscored with the Force Theme. Han Solo and the Princess would have made more sense. Or Leia's theme perhaps? But why the Force Theme for a non-Force character? I think "the Force" is also a motific reference to fate. If you think of it this way, it can make sense at monumental moments such as the death of Ben, the twin suns, Obi-Wan introducing the meaning of the force, etc. If the Force theme was strictly a motif to represent the Force, then it could have made sense when Yoda for the first time demonstrates the power of the force when lifting Luke's x-wing from the swamp but we only got the triumphant yoda theme and nothing of the force theme. This also would fit in with Wagnarian and other models such as Oedipus in how fate has its hands over the events of the characters regardless of their attempts to subvert it. It is sort of like a force/destiny theme so Han fulfilled his destiny. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Very much so. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 10 hours ago, crumbs said: Alas, they probably found the cue unnecessarily overt for the moment, which is dramatic enough without the music needing to hit you over the head that you're witnessing a momentously tragic betrayal. It's Williams sinking back into prequel trilogy musical storytelling mode, when he spent the rest of the film supporting the drama rather than having to create it. They made the right decision, even if it's one hell of an unreleased cue. did you mean original trilogy musical storytelling mode? because for a lot of people the prequels had trouble connecting with people on an emotional level which is why you'd get bombastic pieces like Battle of Heroes and Duel of the Fates. I didn't mind it personally, its a very classic Hollywood approach to scoring, but some of those tracks felt static and recyclable. that unreleased cue is absolutely beautiful, given what we know now could someone edit that to picture and upload it to Google Drive? I tried lining it up and it made the scene so much more intense to watch even if it is a little overblown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,306 Posted June 4, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, DarthDementous said: did you mean original trilogy musical storytelling mode? because for a lot of people the prequels had trouble connecting with people on an emotional level which is why you'd get bombastic pieces like Battle of Heroes and Duel of the Fates. I didn't mind it personally, its a very classic Hollywood approach to scoring, but some of those tracks felt static and recyclable. that unreleased cue is absolutely beautiful, given what we know now could someone edit that to picture and upload it to Google Drive? I tried lining it up and it made the scene so much more intense to watch even if it is a little overblown. Nah, meant the prequels. Lucas was so inept as a director that Williams had to do the heavy lifting in the prequels. There was no chemistry between Christensen and Portman in AOTC, so Williams had to write the most lush, epic and sprawling love theme of his career (he probably pretended he was scoring Out of Africa) to compensate for the total lack of filmmaking ability. Likewise Duel of the Fates, rightly considered the only redeeming aspect of TPM, and far better than that film deserves. The difference with TFA is that a competent director who understood characters was in charge, a bit like Irvin Kershner on ESB. There's a lot of scored moments in ESB which were dialled out because the film stood on its own feet without requiring Williams' music to fill any dramatic blanks (Luke's confrontation with Vader being a good example). Han's death in TFA was always going to be tragic enough without Williams needing to write an Anakin's Betrayal-esque cue (another example of Williams compensating for Lucas). DarthDementous, artguy360 and Not Mr. Big 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,275 Posted June 4, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2016 2 hours ago, karelm said: I think "the Force" is also a motific reference to fate. If you think of it this way, it can make sense at monumental moments such as the death of Ben, the twin suns, Obi-Wan introducing the meaning of the force, etc. If the Force theme was strictly a motif to represent the Force, then it could have made sense when Yoda for the first time demonstrates the power of the force when lifting Luke's x-wing from the swamp but we only got the triumphant yoda theme and nothing of the force theme. This also would fit in with Wagnarian and other models such as Oedipus in how fate has its hands over the events of the characters regardless of their attempts to subvert it. It is sort of like a force/destiny theme so Han fulfilled his destiny. Yep, agreed. I would say that there's also something about how the Force theme ties itself to characters as they demonstrate belief in its existence or sensitivity to its presence. Han never really had this in the OT but in the middle of 7 when he tells the kids about the Force, he musically transforms into the wise, enlightened figure in that moment, the true believer who guides the new characters. He's their Obi-Wan and Yoda, so one could say that for his death scene, Williams was illustrating finally that the Force is strong with Han Solo. It's quite a thing that he's created with that theme, really, how well it evokes those concepts of fate and destiny, and how with every film it increasingly has this ability to lend this calm objectivity to any scene that it's dropped into. Even in the most triumphant or tortured variations there's something dispassionate about it....it's so specific yet it belongs to everyone and pretty much anything you want besides. Gotta be one of the most effective examples of "the voice of God" in music. Jay, Will, crumbs and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,306 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Nicely put, sums up the Force Theme very well. It certainly transcends the films. Probably the most versatile theme of his career; even after 7 years he's still reinventing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 1 hour ago, crumbs said: There was no chemistry between Christensen and Portman in AOTC, so Williams had to write the most lush, epic and sprawling love theme of his career (he probably pretended he was scoring Out of Africa) to compensate for the total lack of filmmaking ability. That might be the reason "Across the Stars" doesn't do much for me emotionally. Despite it's attempts to evoke "grand love!", it feels strangely impersonal. That being said, it's still far more than the film (and George Lucas) deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Like several of the themes in the Prequels Across The Stars doesn't really reflect the characters or the situation it represents very much. It's a boisterous and epic theme for a love that completely falls flat on the screen, and actually shouldn't exist. (Its the downfall of the Jedi and the Old Republic). It's good music, but it's essentially a love theme for Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun. DarthDementous and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Yes, if the love child of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun grew up to challenge his father 25 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 You are taking me to literal, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 To literal? Where's literal and how do we get there? Perhaps you are taking my taking you literally too literally. Like at least one or two others, Across the Stars is a far better love theme than either its film or associated lovers deserve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Oh yeah, like i said, its good music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,306 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 The prequels gave us some amazing music. Duel of the Fates - Two boring characters with no personality have a lightsaber battle with a boring villain with a cool design. Across the Stars - Two boring characters with no chemistry, who disagree about almost everything, one of whom murders an entire village of women and children, have an epic love story with the believability of Thomas the Tank Engine. Battle of the Heroes - Two close friends (despite spending the entire film disagreeing and bitching about each other behind their backs) do battle in a giant video game landscape. Williams' music did not reflect the films he was scoring; I shudder to think how ordinary the music would've been if it did. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post #SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 4, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2016 General Grievous. A rousing brass theme, with the choir shouting "Grievous Are The Deeds Of The Empire" in Sanskrit. Doesnt have anything to do with the stupid character, but it sounds great. Anakin's Dark Deeds, the last few minutes. A soulless and poorly acted scene but Williams underscored it with a theme that repeats over and over again, slightly different each time, going from surprise, shock, denial, anger and finally acceptance of fate before erupted in a (literally) volcanic fanfare. artguy360, greenturnedblue and crumbs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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