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How would you rank The Force Awakens among the Star Wars prequel scores?


Josh500

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It's too early for me to tell exactly. In fact, I probably still can't fully judge the prequel scores, because I'm way too lazy to concern myself with the various fan edits, so I rely entirely on the official CD releases and what little I remember from the films

 

AOTC is certainly an underrated score. Across the Stars is a gorgeous theme, and I love all the action writing in the score, too. It mainly lacks a satisfying finale, and the fact that the album even misses what little original material there is (I think) between The Arena and the finale is also problematic.

 

ROTS has great moments (the opening battle is indeed a highlight of the entire series), but for me definitely lacks a satisfying, original conclusion. Too much re-recorded music from the OT, and Battle of the Heroes still does nothing for me except for the kickass transition at its beginning. I understand there are important moments missing from the album, but I barely remember them from the film. For me, it's really a score that lacks a proper conclusion, and therefore the least of the prequels.

 

TFA is definitely above ROTS for me. Possibly above all of the prequels. I'm not even sure yet where it stands compared to ROTJ.

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The funny thing is that in less than a week since its was realeased, we have more music for TFA than ROTS and AOTC.

 

1. ROTS/TFA (the first has more highlights and the second flows better thematically)

 

3. TPM

4. AOTC

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Comparing TFA with the 3 prequels, I can't help but wonder whether we'd be even more impressed with the former had LSO performed the score. I'm inclined to say, yes, probably. 

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Having just listened to TFA CD and the prequel scores to compare the sound, TFA definitely sounds better. There is too much reverb in the prequel soundtracks and a lot of the instruments sound too distant and indistinct. For TFA you can hear each sound clearly and there is good spacing between the sounds. 

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9 hours ago, Josh500 said:

Comparing TFA with the 3 prequels, I can't help but wonder whether we'd be even more impressed with the former had LSO performed the score. I'm inclined to say, yes, probably. 

 

No. 

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14 hours ago, Josh500 said:

I didn't mean the sound quality, but the performance quality.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, yeah, an LSO-level performance would have elevated the score. I gotta give the LA players credit for a very solid effort, better than I expected, but compare it to something like TPM.

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God this fetishization of the LSO is truly silly.  I'm sorry to everyone who thinks it's true, obvious, indisputable, but good grief.  It's so silly.

 

I assure you, the only measurable or perceptible edge that the LSO has is the choice of places they can record in.

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The one difference I notice between TFA and at least some of the LSO recordings is the much maligned beginning of the Main Title. Which I don't have any issues with. If anything, it's cleanly played, not as dirty as some earlier recordings.

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1. TPM

2. ROTS

3. AOTC

4. ANH

5. ESB

6. ROTJ

7. TFA

 

But I haven't listen often to the new score, so it will surely get a higher rating from me.

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12 minutes ago, Obi-two said:

1. TPM

2. ROTS

3. AOTC

4. ANH

5. ESB

6. ROTJ

7. TFA

 

But I haven't listen often to the new score, so it will surely get a higher rating from me.

 

Lol, isn't that just the order of the films?

 

EDIT - I'm dumb.

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2 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

Ah, I missed AOTC and ROTS being missed!  My mistake.

 

I'm probably the only one in the world who thinks the prequel trilogy (movie as well as the score) are better then the old trilogy. Maybe one reason is that I'm born after ESB came out and thus too young to appresiate the old trilogy fully. They are great movies (don't get me wrong) but some thing just look old and weird. And I also got the same idea as with e.g. "The Godfather" that it's a great movie because its a classic. 

 

With the score of the old Star Wars movies it's the same thing for me: they ARE great but I like the clear sond of the new trilogy. And of course the recording technic are better/different now days (e.g. the Horns sound completely different now). 

 

The new theme's of TPM makes it for me number one and the the dramatic score of ROTS numer two.

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2 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, yeah, an LSO-level performance would have elevated the score. I gotta give the LA players credit for a very solid effort, better than I expected, but compare it to something like TPM.

Yup agreed.  Hollywood studio musicians did a good job, but te result is predictably less good than the LSO prequel performance.

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4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

God this fetishization of the LSO is truly silly.  I'm sorry to everyone who thinks it's true, obvious, indisputable, but good grief.  It's so silly.

 

I assure you, the only measurable or perceptible edge that the LSO has is the choice of places they can record in.

 

And I, in turn, am sorry that others' differing tastes seem silly to you. Oddly enough, what is imperceptible to one listener can be quite significant to others. And for me, the difference is significant especially in the trumpets - although the bulk of what I've heard from the LSO is from before Maurice Murphy retired.

 

If you'd like to arrange for some double-blind listening trials featuring the same music in recorded in the same studio by players from both sides of the pond, I'll happily lend my time to determine whether I actually prefer the sound of the LSO or am just being suckered by hype. Until that time, though, I'll have to just keep mucking around in my self-deluded ignorance, despite the occasional comment from someone who clearly knows better.

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I enjoy all performances, but ultimately TFA has a superior presentation on the OST and FYC than the prequels did on their OSTs, which sounded muddy and flat. TPM UE sounds pretty good, although it's too loud and I think the OST has superior dynamic range. I wonder what the remastered PT will sound like in the new set.

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I was listening to KOTCS today and I think the problem we hear with the trumpets is not necesarrily a matter of the skill of the players, but rather the changes in JW's writing style. At least in KOTCS in particular, a lot of the stuff the trumpets play is in unison, or solo, there's not much harmonies with them. (feel free to correct me, that's what I heard today listening to the original soundtrack on a nice equipment but I wasn't giving it my 100% attention).

 

For example, there's a particular moment in Scherzo for X-Wings where the trumpets are playing Luke's Theme and they go from playing all the same notes to then forming a little passage in full chord-harmony mode, and it sounds amazing. I think that's what we might be hearing "wrong" with the trumpets, but it's seems something Williams seems to be more interested in exploring. Maybe he likes toying with the brasses more and making them harmonize between them more (horns, trombones, trumpets) but still keeping them kinda separated. Like if you hit a basic C chord, you give the C to the horns, the E to the trombones and the G to the trumpets. 

 

I don't know if that's the case, but I think that's what people are hearing differently comparing the older LSO scores with the newer ones played with the LA guys. I'd love to hear from the more musically educated guys if I'm talking out of my ass or not, because I'm pretty convinced myself and I'd be quite open to a rebutal.

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Williams wrote this score for the players he knew would be playing it in the room he knew it'd be recorded in.

 

If he knew it'd be recorded by the LSO in a bigger room, we'd have a different score.

 

In other words, he wrote for the strengths of the players and room he had.

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1 hour ago, Datameister said:

 

And I, in turn, am sorry that others' differing tastes seem silly to you. Oddly enough, what is imperceptible to one listener can be quite significant to others. And for me, the difference is significant especially in the trumpets - although the bulk of what I've heard from the LSO is from before Maurice Murphy retired.

 

If you'd like to arrange for some double-blind listening trials featuring the same music in recorded in the same studio by players from both sides of the pond, I'll happily lend my time to determine whether I actually prefer the sound of the LSO or am just being suckered by hype. Until that time, though, I'll have to just keep mucking around in my self-deluded ignorance, despite the occasional comment from someone who clearly knows better.

 

At least you acknowledge that I do know better.  

 

31 minutes ago, Michael said:

I was listening to KOTCS today and I think the problem we hear with the trumpets is not necesarrily a matter of the skill of the players, but rather the changes in JW's writing style. At least in KOTCS in particular, a lot of the stuff the trumpets play is in unison, or solo, there's not much harmonies with them. (feel free to correct me, that's what I heard today listening to the original soundtrack on a nice equipment but I wasn't giving it my 100% attention).

 

For example, there's a particular moment in Scherzo for X-Wings where the trumpets are playing Luke's Theme and they go from playing all the same notes to then forming a little passage in full chord-harmony mode, and it sounds amazing. I think that's what we might be hearing "wrong" with the trumpets, but it's seems something Williams seems to be more interested in exploring. Maybe he likes toying with the brasses more and making them harmonize between them more (horns, trombones, trumpets) but still keeping them kinda separated. Like if you hit a basic C chord, you give the C to the horns, the E to the trombones and the G to the trumpets. 

 

I don't know if that's the case, but I think that's what people are hearing differently comparing the older LSO scores with the newer ones played with the LA guys. I'd love to hear from the more musically educated guys if I'm talking out of my ass or not, because I'm pretty convinced myself and I'd be quite open to a rebutal.

 

You're not at all talking out of your ass.  

 

Composition, orchestration, conducting, recording space, the recording engineer and his/her methods… these things all have an effect on the sonic quality of a score, wayyyyyy more than the abilities of the players themselves do, because we're not comparing a group of world-class players to a high school ensemble, we're comparing world-class players to other world-class players.  Of course it sounds DIFFERENT.  No one would sanely argue that it doesn't, duh.  But it's when people get convinced that the difference equals a disparity in quality that it gets silly.  KOTCS and Tintin have flubs all over.  The original SW trilogy scores have flubs all over.  The tone of the trumpet sections are different between the LSO and the HSS.  But then, the tone of the trumpet sections of the 1977 LSO and the 2015 LSO are different too.  Is one "better" than the other?  Or do you just like one more?

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Upon a few more listens and another viewing of the movie, I think TFA has moved ahead of AOTC as my second favorite "newish" Star Wars score.  Rey's theme is really the backbone of the score, and there are so many pieces of the theme that can be used separately from one another in different ways, or together.  It's a really great piece.  And the action movie - specifically the ostinato type material found in Follow Me/The Falcon and a bit in Rathtars! - is really good action writing.

 

So my new ranking would be TPM, TFA, AOTC, and ROTS.  Although I don't think that anything in TFA will ever reach the heights of Across the Stars, which is one of Williams' most gorgeous compositions.

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35 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

At least you acknowledge that I do know better.  

 

 

You're not at all talking out of your ass.  

 

Composition, orchestration, conducting, recording space, the recording engineer and his/her methods… these things all have an effect on the sonic quality of a score, wayyyyyy more than the abilities of the players themselves do, because we're not comparing a group of world-class players to a high school ensemble, we're comparing world-class players to other world-class players.  Of course it sounds DIFFERENT.  No one would sanely argue that it doesn't, duh.  But it's when people get convinced that the difference equals a disparity in quality that it gets silly.  KOTCS and Tintin have flubs all over.  The original SW trilogy scores have flubs all over.  The tone of the trumpet sections are different between the LSO and the HSS.  But then, the tone of the trumpet sections of the 1977 LSO and the 2015 LSO are different too.  Is one "better" than the other?  Or do you just like one more?

 

Good to know I'm on the right path! There's just one thing I'd love the modern LA players try out: those badass fortissimo trumpets heard in Desert Chase from Raiders -I think this is also a case of three or four players all playing the same notes but I could be wrong. That's just something I wish Williams would have been interested in exploring more.

 

Also, we have to remember Willy still writes quite complex music that is not always easy to play, even something as simple as the melody from Indy's march is hard as fuck to play on a trumpet! Those jumps Johnny loves to do from one octave to another are incredily demanding on brass players. Of course both the LA guys and the LSO are fucking professionals, they can play anything they want with their eyes closed so I imagine it's not a problem at all for them. I do think Johnny's music in full orchestral mode requires more rehearsal than Hollywood allows.

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9 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, yeah, an LSO-level performance would have elevated the score. I gotta give the LA players credit for a very solid effort, better than I expected, but compare it to something like TPM.

Exactly me thought. 

 

I'm not trying to put down the Hollywood players in any way, but then, you gotta give credit where credit is due. The LSO is simply unbeatable, IMO, where this kind of music is concerned. The most frantic and frenetic action cues in the prequel scores... I've never heard anything as perfectly and brilliantly performed before, and I probably never will. These scores stand in a class of their own.

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Williams wrote this score for the players he knew would be playing it in the room he knew it'd be recorded in.

 

If he knew it'd be recorded by the LSO in a bigger room, we'd have a different score.

 

In other words, he wrote for the strengths of the players and room he had.

 

Yeah, I agree. 

 

The themes and the music in general would have been the same either way, but the orchestration is probably slightly different and adjusted since JW knew LSO would not be playing it.

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10 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

God this fetishization of the LSO is truly silly.  I'm sorry to everyone who thinks it's true, obvious, indisputable, but good grief.  It's so silly.

 

I assure you, the only measurable or perceptible edge that the LSO has is the choice of places they can record in.

 

This.

 

In a blind test, they wouldn't hear the difference.

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8 hours ago, hornist said:

 

This.

 

In a blind test, they wouldn't hear the difference.

 

Stranger things have happened. I used to be convinced that 256kbps iTunes AAC files sounded noticeably worse to me than lossless equivalents. Then I did a bunch of double-blind trials and science proved me wrong. Human perception is imperfect and easily swayed by preconception.

 

I could be similarly wrong about preferring the sound of the Murphy-era LSO. Alternatively, there could be actual differences in the performance style that really do impact my enjoyment but not yours. Regardless, it would unfortunately be tremendously difficult to set up some scientifically rigorous listening trials to answer this question.

 

I had also been thinking about the same compositional/orchestrational differences as you, Michael. They further complicate the comparison. Because yes, Williams does write differently now than he did 10+ years ago, just like the LSO has changed over time.

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3 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Stranger things have happened. I used to be convinced that 256kbps iTunes AAC files sounded noticeably worse to me than lossless equivalents.

 

To be fair, the AAC encoder hasn't always been as good as it is now. At 256, it sounds very good now.

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12 hours ago, Jay said:

If he knew it'd be recorded by the LSO in a bigger room, we'd have a different score.

 

I think that's absurd. Mostly. Sure, a couple flourishes, minor details and final touches might be different, but the score, its themes and even most of the orchestration would be the same. THIS is the score Williams thought the picture needed, LSO or no LSO.

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Of course the themes and general shape and scope of the score would have been the same no matter what, but the orchestration was entirely focused on how he knew it would be played.

 

Howard Shore similarly wrote DOS and BOFA different than AUJ (with a lot less aleatory) when he knew the NZSO would be recording them instead of the LPO.

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19 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

At least you acknowledge that I do know better.  

 

 

You're not at all talking out of your ass.  

 

Composition, orchestration, conducting, recording space, the recording engineer and his/her methods… these things all have an effect on the sonic quality of a score, wayyyyyy more than the abilities of the players themselves do, because we're not comparing a group of world-class players to a high school ensemble, we're comparing world-class players to other world-class players.  Of course it sounds DIFFERENT.  No one would sanely argue that it doesn't, duh.  But it's when people get convinced that the difference equals a disparity in quality that it gets silly.  KOTCS and Tintin have flubs all over.  The original SW trilogy scores have flubs all over.  The tone of the trumpet sections are different between the LSO and the HSS.  But then, the tone of the trumpet sections of the 1977 LSO and the 2015 LSO are different too.  Is one "better" than the other?  Or do you just like one more?

 

Well duh.  The whole point of this site is to state and argue opinions, and we're not always going to preface them with an "in my opinion..." because most of the time that goes without saying.  Also, if memory serves, this whole debate started when some of us expressed disappointment that the HSS would be replacing the LSO for TFA--absent any statement about one being objectively superior over the other--and you attacked us for being biased, etc.  If your point this whole time has been that there are legitimate differences between HHS and LSO, and you just don't think we can use these differences to determine objectively which is better than the other...then you're not in contradiction with us.

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