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No Time To Die (James Bond #25)


Jay

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4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

On the other hand, sure, lots of people may have helped on At World's End, but none of them ever wrote something as good as the material on that score. The info is that Jackman helped on the beloved One Day cue, but on his own he never wrote something as great as that piece of music. A

 

It's just a normal cue, with a variation on the love theme, you don't need Beethoven to come up with that. 

 

This neverending discussion reveals that the average film music fan just isn't used to popular music, where you would go mad to find out which part of the team wrote what bass line, contributed which arrangement idea and so forth. But it's laughable to hold Zimmer & Co. to standards of classical symphonic forms, really. Nobody here profits from ASCAP royalties so why bother?

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14 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Williams was accommodated like a visiting pope on these things, that's in no way comparable to the kind of grindmill the usual RCP et al. blockbuster is.

 

Still, he'd have to adhere to JJ's infamous inconfidence.

 

7 minutes ago, publicist said:

Nobody here profits from ASCAP royalties so why bother?

 

It's about getting your rightful credit, which any 

creative mind would understand. Pop song writers, to use your unaccurate comparison, even get that to a greater extent than those who work on HanZ' productions.

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10 hours ago, HunterTech said:

so one must wonder how RCP composers must feel like going from project to project in a short amount of time. They might be treated as subhuman here basically, but it's something to think about.

 

Well in fairness RC doesn't have to take on so many projects, it's their choice to do so. Greed perhaps?

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1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's about getting your rightful credit, which any 

creative mind would understand. Pop song writers, to use your unaccurate comparison, even get that to a greater extent than those who work on HanZ' productions.

 

Rubbish. You denigrate RCP's product at any given opportunity and now it's suddenly important to give *artist's* credit?

 

My analogy is spot-on: no one's bothering if Eddie Vedder, Stone Gossard or Mike McCready did contribute 30% more than the other on a  song, it's fucking Pearl Jam, and that's the way RCP operates, if not for marketing purposes. The dedicated fan might have fun with spotting who did what, but in film music it's doubly irrelevant, many of the cues are just functional film cues with no life beyond.

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46 minutes ago, publicist said:

You denigrate RCP's product at any given opportunity and now it's suddenly important to give *artist's* credit?

 

That's always been my main point of criticism towards the guy. That, and his extreme tendency of self plagiarism.

 

48 minutes ago, publicist said:

My analogy is spot-on: no one's bothering if Eddie Vedder, Stone Gossard or Mike McCready did contribute 30% more than the other on a  song, it's fucking Pearl Jam

 

Regardless of whether you bother about it, they still get their credits.

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I think your criticism is often vicious and going far beyond that (not that it's not musically accurate a lot of the time). But it's also wrong in the sense that you shoot the messenger. Zimmer probably would be the last one to prevent great music from being written and would encourage the slaves to do so, but this kind of music is more than ever a simple adjunct to picture, it's all kind of pleasing and bland, personality-free, and very much requested to be so, in a short amount of time. And that goes for many guys supplying exactly that kind of stuff, look at Marco Beltrami's scores of the last 15 years, and he has written some (conceptually) great things in the early 2000's.

 

I think this Bond score will be exactly the same, not beyond awful but with 80% of it being purely functional and the usual assortment of social media twats declaring it great for that and one or two more noteworthy cues. Sadly, we still wait for music being encouraged again to make a vital contribution. baby steps.

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8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Most of the time, I just saw this info posted in the comments of an album, so to find it you have to read through pages and pages of nonsense. Maybe they could put a tab like "Bootlegs"... On the other hand, I don't think anyone involved with Zimmer and RC (and I'm certain they go to that place sometimes, if only to see what the fans are talking) sees that, they wouldn't be happy. lol


You'll be surprised to learn that they do list bootlegs on there! Lots of them, in fact. Some that haven't even leaked yet (Aquaman for example). It tends to take a bit of time, since it seems they get listed once Hybrid knows that it's out and about. The only time I heard anyone from the team getting angry was allegedly Zanelli for POTC5 leaking so soon. But Zimmer must've calmed him down, since it is on the site. Hybrid apparently does know Zimmer and co. well, since he's been able to confirm a lot of stuff (here's him answering my questions about Ring Two for example).
 

8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I guess the situation was getting rather ridiculous, a lot of people working on a single cue, but just only one of them being credited. Something may have happened over the last few days on the industry that we didn't heard of.


I still believe that we'd have heard something by now if there was any discontent going on. I suppose the Spotify thing was a solution for whatever might've happened behind the scenes.
 

8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

The more I try to understand this situation, the less I know, actually. For instance, I love Zimmer's Pirates 3 score, but some cues, specially at the final battle, do sound like they were composed by someone else. I've heard similar stuff on Jackman's Civil War, so maybe this is their style when they want to go orchestral and swashbuckling?

 

On the other hand, sure, lots of people may have helped on At World's End, but none of them ever wrote something as good as the material on that score. The info is that Jackman helped on the beloved One Day cue, but on his own he never wrote something as great as that piece of music. And if you know Zimmer, you can actually hear his voice through that track.

 

I guess it depends of how inspired he is on a certain project. I re-listened to Sherlock 2 today, and it IS a Zimmer score, despite Lorne helping, you can hear the German's style, whether you like it or not. On his DCEU scores and Interstellar for instance he did most of the heavy lifting, I imagine, but looking at the sessions of Angels and Demons, it does seem like a score on which he just wrote a few suites and then let his subordinates put that on the movie. Maybe he did that movie just because he had worked on the previous film on the franchise, and also to mantain his friendship with Ron Howard, rather than interest? DaVinci Code seemed to inspire him way more.

 

And about us here making fun of RC, I wouldn't mind. It's the same of people here making fun of Williams' senility (he's still very lucid and hardworking for a man his age, thank God) and his obsession with Daisy Ridley (nothing so far indicates a possible #MeToo situation). I myself use JWFan to have fun, and since these Hollywood composers make more money than me, well...


I think it just rests on "it depends on the project" too often to get a concrete answer, which likely makes things more frustrating. Doesn't help when the information doesn't get to be consistent (Jackman is credited on all instances of the love theme in 3, down to even the suites, but is nowhere to be seen on 4 and 5 credit wise). It's probably a bit easier when the work is heavily theme driven, since you'll be able to pick up a bit easier on who did what. Back to TASM2, with the ridiculous amount of names involved, you can very much see who's responsible for certain sections (Junkie for the dubstep parts, Mazzaro on the Goblin material, Andrew K for the subway scene, etc.). Of course, it's not always like that, but it can happen.

There's likely a particular energy that comes with working with Hans or certain others that doesn't get to translate to solo ventures. Someone once actually brought up an interesting opinion that Balfe does a much better job fleshing out other people's ideas than creating very compelling ones on his own. While I haven't heard enough to ultimately say, my ambivalence to two of his most popular works (GitS and Fallout) does somewhat have me agree.

A&D was fun enough when I heard it, but I couldn't be bothered to remember much of it besides 160 BPM and DVC callbacks. And DVC's best piece was done by Richard Harvey ("Kyrie For The Magdalense"), so the Langdon series likely isn't what will pop up when I think of Zimmer.

It's a bit of a mixed bag on the RCP mocking front. The last few examples are clearly lighthearted, and some certainly don't mind the MV crew much. However, it becomes pretty clear when others just seethe hatred on even acknowledging HZ's existence alone. And admittedly not without reason, as even I can admit that these are pretty dire times for film scoring, thanks to the industry loving TDK too much. But as someone who's grown to take a lot of appreciation for how Hans's methodology relates to the electronic music that even got me here to begin with, it gets a bit tiring to hear the same old comments. Certainly means something when even a friend who hates modern film scoring is more respectful about how the RCP process goes than many here. Guess I just need to get a bit more accustomed still.

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52 minutes ago, publicist said:

I think your criticism is often vicious and going far beyond that (not that it's not musically accurate a lot of the time).

 

I can't deny that you feel that, but my posts are always humorous, and then it's quite common to use exaggerations and irony. However, I'm the first one to admit that I don't always hit the nail on its head. And I have to say the man himself has contributed to turning him into a joke with his questionable practices.

 

 

57 minutes ago, publicist said:

Zimmer probably would be the last one to prevent great music from being written

 

As far as I can recall, I haven't claimed that he's tried to prevent such things.

 

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7 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Apparently NTTD's opening pre-credits sequence is 20 minutes long. Never thought they'd ever go longer than TWINE's, but here we are. 

 

The longer they delay that song, the better. 

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13 hours ago, HunterTech said:

You'll be surprised to learn that they do list bootlegs on there! Lots of them, in fact. Some that haven't even leaked yet (Aquaman for example). It tends to take a bit of time, since it seems they get listed once Hybrid knows that it's out and about. The only time I heard anyone from the team getting angry was allegedly Zanelli for POTC5 leaking so soon. But Zimmer must've calmed him down, since it is on the site. Hybrid apparently does know Zimmer and co. well, since he's been able to confirm a lot of stuff (here's him answering my questions about Ring Two for example).

 

Wow, thanks for all the links! I'm really hoping for a recording session leak of Aquaman. The OST left many great stuff out, including on the alleged "deluxe" edition. Almost everything from the Sicily battle between Arthur, Mera, Black Manta and the Atlantean Soldiers is unreleased, and much of the album contains boring songs, such as the dreadful Africa version by Pitbull.

 

13 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I think it just rests on "it depends on the project" too often to get a concrete answer, which likely makes things more frustrating. Doesn't help when the information doesn't get to be consistent (Jackman is credited on all instances of the love theme in 3, down to even the suites, but is nowhere to be seen on 4 and 5 credit wise). It's probably a bit easier when the work is heavily theme driven, since you'll be able to pick up a bit easier on who did what. Back to TASM2, with the ridiculous amount of names involved, you can very much see who's responsible for certain sections (Junkie for the dubstep parts, Mazzaro on the Goblin material, Andrew K for the subway scene, etc.). Of course, it's not always like that, but it can happen.

There's likely a particular energy that comes with working with Hans or certain others that doesn't get to translate to solo ventures. Someone once actually brought up an interesting opinion that Balfe does a much better job fleshing out other people's ideas than creating very compelling ones on his own. While I haven't heard enough to ultimately say, my ambivalence to two of his most popular works (GitS and Fallout) does somewhat have me agree.

A&D was fun enough when I heard it, but I couldn't be bothered to remember much of it besides 160 BPM and DVC callbacks. And DVC's best piece was done by Richard Harvey ("Kyrie For The Magdalense"), so the Langdon series likely isn't what will pop up when I think of Zimmer.

 

I guess the only thing we could do is to make a case by case analysys. On the case of the love theme of At World's End, this theme is clearly Zimmer's creation. Jackman wasn't credited on POTC 5 because his job on 3 was probably very minor, maybe just adapting Zimmer's cues to the changing edits of the film.

 

However, TASM 2 was clearly a team effort, no wonder the score is credited to Zimmer and The Magnificent Six. A&D I believe it was mostly Balfe, much like a lot of Zimmer scores from the late 2000s/early 2010s, and the animated movies was probably done in teams as well. There is this great quote by Jackman people posted on the AWE thread on the fansite about how his collaborations went

 

Quote

"On Da Vinci Code, I sort of felt that Hans was doing the whole thing. For The Simpsons, he wrote a tune for Homer Simpson which is so perfect in capturing his personality. He did that on the piano. He did a piano mock and gave it to the director who found it sounded pretty cool. But not being a musician, he couldn’t quite see it. So I came in and made a 6-minute orchestral suite based on that tune and exploring different ways. And then the director said : “OOOh, it’s gonna work!” So it all depends. Hans has different relationships with his composers, he knows what they’re good at and if he feels that you have an understanding on something, he steps back and just lets you do your thing. He’s very flexible."

 

In any case, this discussion over who wrote what will just go around in circles forever, and is mostly pointless, actually. We'll just have to accept that they work as a team, and I guess they're happy with that.

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"Hans has different relationships with his composers. If he feels you have an understanding of copying the Hans Zimmer sound, he steps back and lets you do your thing. If he feels you understand a style of music that he doesn't, he'll do a quick piano mockup and lets you achieve that sound, to make the director think he's a genius. He's very flexible. "

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17 hours ago, LSH said:


Words!


:sarcasm:

Really? You need 'NTTD' spelt out in full, given the thread title? And it's not exactly difficult to figure out what TWINE is in regard to the Bond franchise, either.   

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Some Bond fans don't want the movie to flop because of coronavirus.

 

Quote

Bond Fans Urge Studios to Delay ‘No Time to Die’ Release in Wake of Coronavirus Outbreak

 

Worldwide box office grosses for "No Time to Die" could suffer if the virus outbreak continues to keep theaters around the world closed.

 

James Bond fans are calling on Eon, MGM, and Universal to delay the upcoming release of “No Time to Die” because of the worldwide coronavirus outbreak. An open letter to the studios addressing the matter was published March 2 on the MI6-HQ website, the biggest Bond fan blog in the world. The website is behind several books on the Bond film franchise and is the publisher of the official “MI6 Confidential” magazine. The letter calls for the studios to “put public health above marketing release schedules” and push the release of “No Time to Die” until summer 2020.

 

“After enduring three delays in production already, it is by no means easy to say this: the release of ‘No Time To Die’ should be postponed,” the letter states. “With the Coronavirus reaching pandemic status, it is time to put public health above marketing release schedules and the cost of canceling publicity events…Delay the release of ‘No Time To Die’ until the summer when experts expect the epidemics to have peaked and to be under control. It’s just a movie. The health and well-being of fans around the world, and their families is more important. We have all waited over four years for this film. Another few months will not damage the quality of the film and only help the box office for Daniel Craig’s final hurrah.”

 

“No Time to Die” is opening in the U.S. via United Artists Releasing, a joint venture between MGM and Annapurna. Universal Pictures is handling the international release of the latest Bond film. The “No Time to Die” China premiere was canceled last month as the country shut down movie theaters to help combat the coronavirus outbreak. The letter also mentions several publicity stops on the “No Time to Die” campaign have been pulled because of the virus, including China, South Korea, and Japan. The letter cites a potential danger in holding a London world premiere for the film that will be attended by thousands of people, including cast and crew, press, and fans.

 

“Hundreds of fans and celebrities from around the world will be flying to the UK to attend. The Royal Albert Hall capacity is above the 5,000 limit that affected countries are banning for public gatherings,” the letter states. “Just one person, who may not even show symptoms, could infect the rest of the audience. This is not the type of publicity anyone wants.”

 

“No Time to Die” remains on course to open in the U.S. on April 8. Read the full MI6-HQ letter here.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/03/james-bond-fans-delay-no-time-to-die-release-coronavirus-1202214838/

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Jesus Christ. 

Yeah, let's stop Hollywood because of 41.000 active flu infections WORLDWIDE, 82% of which amount to little more than a runny nose. 

 

The disease is not the virus, the disease is the sensationalist fear mongering, as evident by above bullshit.

 

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1. Yes it would be stupid to postpone a movie release because of a disease. If you can't make it to the theatre to see it, just wait until streaming.

 

2. The downplaying of the disease and censorship of scientists by certain people in charge is downright stupid. These same people are calling the spread of the coronavirus a "liberal hoax".

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2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Yeah, let's stop Hollywood because of 41.000 active flu infections WORLDWIDE, 82% of which amount to little more than a runny nose. 

 

But, its a self-fulfilling prophecy. The histrionics don't begin with movie distribution. Rather, it is possibel that even though not enough people are infected so as to put a dent in the box-office, enough people are already sufficiently frightened so as to not go to a crowded movie theater.

 

Quote

The downplaying of the disease and censorship of scientists

 

On the other hand, playing up hysteria because it "sells" is just as stupid. Its one of the inherent failing of journalism: if news were a true representation of reality, than most of the time the broadcast should have been "everything is okay, continue with your lives" because, most of the time, that's how life is. And yet the news are NEVER like that, because there's no attention to be gleaned from that kind of reportage.

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There is no downplaying of "the disease", there is a 100% justified and backed up by NUMBERS call to fucking reason. 

 

We live in a time where people have access to all the information and science they could ever desire, and instead of doing that, they hang on the lips of pseudo-intellectual journalists, who are bankrupt enough to twist half truths into oversimplified headlines ("CORONAVIRUS MARCHES ON!") and report numbers without ever explaining what they mean, if reported at all. 

At which point it is a self fulfilling prophecy, where panic is initiated by the media, so that people catch on, so that it can then be reported that people are afraid, and because many people aren't afraid until others are afraid, even more become afraid. And so the circle continues until you fearmonger people out of their minds so much that they go emergency shopping. 

That's irresponsible and immoral to the very core.

If you're below 60, there is a higher chance of dying from a routine surgery than there is of dying because of this. 

 

There is no "censoring of scientists". If you want to see censorship in science, I suggest you look at climate change or archeology.

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3 hours ago, gkgyver said:

There is no downplaying of "the disease", there is a 100% justified and backed up by NUMBERS call to fucking reason. 

 

We live in a time where people have access to all the information and science they could ever desire, and instead of doing that, they hang on the lips of pseudo-intellectual journalists, who are bankrupt enough to twist half truths into oversimplified headlines ("CORONAVIRUS MARCHES ON!") and report numbers without ever explaining what they mean, if reported at all. 

At which point it is a self fulfilling prophecy, where panic is initiated by the media, so that people catch on, so that it can then be reported that people are afraid, and because many people aren't afraid until others are afraid, even more become afraid. And so the circle continues until you fearmonger people out of their minds so much that they go emergency shopping. 

That's irresponsible and immoral to the very core.

If you're below 60, there is a higher chance of dying from a routine surgery than there is of dying because of this. 

 

There is no "censoring of scientists". If you want to see censorship in science, I suggest you look at climate change or archeology.


“Media” is the cancer coursing through modern society. “Media” is the destructive devastating virus, the true malaise, the real vermin.

 

“Journalism“ today flouts any basic standard of ethics, decency, responsibility, accountability and truthfulness. When the end comes, “journalism” wouldn’t be there to cover it, it would have caused it.

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21 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:


“Media” is the cancer coursing through modern society. “Media” is the destructive devastating virus, the true malaise, the real vermin.

 

“Journalism“ today flouts any basic standard of ethics, decency, responsibility, accountability and truthfulness. When the end comes, “journalism” wouldn’t be there to cover it, it would have caused it.

 

Sounds like I picked a popular career.

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10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

If you want to see censorship in science, I suggest you look at climate change or archeology.

Archeology too?!?

Knowing little about it, I wouldn't have expected that.

I'd be curious about any examples you might happen to know.

 

6 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:


“Media” is the cancer coursing through modern society. “Media” is the destructive devastating virus, the true malaise, the real vermin.

 

“Journalism“ today flouts any basic standard of ethics, decency, responsibility, accountability and truthfulness. When the end comes, “journalism” wouldn’t be there to cover it, it would have caused it.

Plot to Tomorrow Never Dies. ;)

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From what I've seen, most of the concerns about the coronavirus are about the economy anyway. With China closed, this will affect the economy of a lot of countries, and many people is starting to lose money - even the rich people.

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19 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Jesus Christ. 

Yeah, let's stop Hollywood because of 41.000 active flu infections WORLDWIDE, 82% of which amount to little more than a runny nose. 

 

The disease is not the virus, the disease is the sensationalist fear mongering, as evident by above bullshit.

 


Fool. 

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6 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Heaven forbid that rich people should become less rich.

 

But that's exactly what's happening. I've read on an economy blog I follow that the richest people lost about $130m combined over the last few days thanks to coronavirus.

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1.7 million die worldwide by tuberculosis. 20.000 and more per year die through MRSA in Germany. Do you ever hear "today, 3 more people got infected with MRSA in Munich" "today 2 patients died in a hospital in Buxtehude" "3000 additional TBC infections in this week alone"? No. 

But with this, it's like: three people died of this virus, we are the only ones that can protect you, let us take more of your freedoms away. Oh, and by the way, every single dollar bill could potentially contain the virus, so we keep them all under quarantine for YOUR safety (like they do in China). 

 

The ultimate goal is the transparent modern slave sitting in his apartment with a microchip under his skin and 100% artificial money. I've been saying it for 10 years, and I don't give a damn whether you believe it or not, you'll live to see it happen. 

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:36 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

It's about getting your rightful credit, which any 

creative mind would understand. Pop song writers, to use your unaccurate comparison, even get that to a greater extent than those who work on HanZ' productions.

I’ll never understand this point you keep driving home that the composers aren’t credited, when you know exactly who all these people are. The sheets have everything, that’s how composers are paid. ASCAP and BMI list everyone. Those credits are posted in film credits, CD releases, and elsewhere (like Hybrid’s comprehensive lists on HZ.com). The Dark Knight was disqualified for an Oscar because Zimmer credited those involved, and the Academy doesn’t like it when more than two people write a score. 
 

You can go look on the ASCAP site yourself and see that Giacchino wrote a helluva lot of Captain Marvel. Hans isn’t the only one. 

On 2/22/2020 at 8:30 PM, Edmilson said:

And about us here making fun of RC, I wouldn't mind. It's the same of people here making fun of Williams' senility (he's still very lucid and hardworking for a man his age, thank God) and his obsession with Daisy Ridley (nothing so far indicates a possible #MeToo situation). I myself use JWFan to have fun, and since these Hollywood composers make more money than me, well...

This is a false equivalent. You consistently use language like hacks, minions, subordinates, etc. Poking fun at someone’s age occasionally is much different than endlessly disparaging composers and musicians for simply having a career. 

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25 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

I’ll never understand this point you keep driving home that the composers aren’t credited, when you know exactly who all these people are. The sheets have everything, that’s how composers are paid. ASCAP and BMI list everyone. Those credits are posted in film credits, CD releases, and elsewhere (like Hybrid’s comprehensive lists on HZ.com). The Dark Knight was disqualified for an Oscar because Zimmer credited those involved, and the Academy doesn’t like it when more than two people write a score. 

 

You shouldn't have to look up in databases or leaked sheets in order to find out who wrote what, or that actually someone else that Zimmer did most of the work.

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7 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

This is a false equivalent. You consistently use language like hacks, minions, subordinates, etc. Poking fun at someone’s age occasionally is much different than endlessly disparaging composers and musicians for simply having a career. 

 

And here comes the White Knight, ready to defend the honor of people that earn way more than I do and aren't on this forum reading the crap I post here everyday! *cue Superman March by John Williams*

 

Look, after months and months of this discussion going around in circles, I've decided that I won't care anymore. Zimmer, or whoever else, can use as much ghost writers as he please. I disagree with him taking solo credit on scores that he didn't do much of the job (Rango, Pirates 4, etc.), but apparently people on the industry aren't mad with that, so why would I be? 

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Fucking coronavirus. Let's hope this fucking disease has gone until then.

 

25 minutes ago, SteveMc said:

It's probably the score!

 

Lorne Balfe will write the replacement score in the meantime, with his material combined with stuff already written by Romer, Zimmer and Mazzarro.

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The cynical part of me thinks they're worried people won't go and see it and they'll make less money.

 

The other part of me is enjoying some of the responses. 

 

"Just rename it "Time To Die" and release it."

 

 

 

 

image.png

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Because they care more about potential profits than whatever the actual reality is. I doubt the fans actually did anything, and this is just something they were already thinking about before the demand to delay came in.

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Fans should root for a timely release, because this film has zero hype behind it, has a questionable story, a subpar title song, and is likely to disappoint, and it'll be easier for them to blame the Coronavirus than the movie itself. 

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2 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Why should it be delayed in the civilized world where only a handful of people are infected with this Communist Chinese illness?

srsly?! 

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4 hours ago, GiacchinoCues said:

The cynical part of me thinks they're worried people won't go and see it and they'll make less money.

 

I'd agree with you there - they likely are very nervous that people would stay away from cinemas.

 

Although there's also potentially catastrophic PR if they're trying to encourage people to flock to cinemas and the virus is spreading.

 

I'm unsure about the ratio of those two.

 

At least we're in the lull between awards season and the summer tentpole period, so studios that have summer blockbusters in the making don't need to panic yet.

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