[FILM] Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Batman v Superman: Dawn Of Justice

 

 

Or Batman Begins Again v Man Of Steef Two: Justice League Movie Set Up

 

The film starts with a retelling of the killing of Bruce Wayne's parents and the scene where he falls in the well. Both have been seen before so It seems redundant at first. But it actually becomes a vital scene later on in the movie.

It's interesting to see how this scene is handled by Snyder, like a nightmare that won't ever go away. Highly stylized with gliding shots from above, slow motion and vivid almost macro photography like close ups with one aspect in blinding focus (the gun that kills the Waynes while everything else is obscured). This is Zack Snyder unshackled to the extent that he isnt asked to make a Batman film that is just like the Nolan trilogy.

 

The opening scene is followed up by a recap from the huge epic battle from Man Of Steef, seen though the eyes of an now older Bruce Wayne, from ground level as the Kryptonions cause masses of damage and kill thousands without it barely registering. As Wayne's building in Metropolis is brought down and "his" people are wounded or killed the first seed of hatred between the Batman and Superman begins to grow.

In the 18 month aftermath Wayne becomes obsessed with Superman and sees him as an someone with the potential to kill millions. He still fights crime but has slowly become more violent and cruel, brandishing his victims like cattle. Even though the mark of Batman is rumoured to get these people killed in jail. Which in turn attracts the attention of Superman, who's alarmed by this apparently violent and unhinged vigilante.

 

So far the seeds for the eventual strife are sown quite well, and Lex Luthor enters the stage to start cultivating the hate.

Like Batman he is convinced that Superman must be destroyed. If Superman is a God, then he is evil, since no God can be benign in this cruel world. And if he is a false deity, then he must die for his deceit. It's the kind of mentality used in the middle ages during witch hunts.

 

Lex Luthor is a seriously insane character. And functions in this film as part puppet master, part circus ringleader. Constantly trying to frame both The Dark Knight and the Man Of Steel for things they didnt do.

 

One of the question many had was why Batman and Superman would fight each other. The motivations in the plot are actually very convincing. Though in the end Lex does have to kidnap Martha Kent to force Superman to do his bidding. (Batman's rage at that point has become so extreme that he needs no external motivation.)

 

But the big setup for this fight is only part of the story. There's the setup for the third act, and the next movie. Mainly in the guise of a mysterious young woman who turns up at a couple of places Bruce Wayne does. And like him looking for something.

 

Then there's the Kryptonite sub plot, and the one where Lex Luthor actually creates the huge beast thing that have to be fought once Batman and Superman realize they are actually on the same side.

 

The film has a lot of plot threads that it's juggles at the same times. And for the most part they actually co exist very well. We get a good sense of the new Batman and and Alfred (both actors convincingly playing them like they have known each other forever and have been at this lark for 20 years. Iron's Alfred is wonderfully dour).

At the same time a fair amount of attention is paid to Clark Kent's personal life, his job as the Planet, his relationship with Lois and indeed his role as Superman and how his actions are interpreted by the world (America). There's an excellent scene which is a montage of Superman performing all kinds of superfeats for the benefit of mankind, many of the gorgeous iconic shots that appear in the trailers. These are intercut by talking heads on TV, debating Superman, his actions, defending him, questioning what his existence means.

 

Eventually Batman and Superman start their epic fight. Batman because he feels he must. The Superman is a menace and MUST be destroyed, Superman because Lex Luthor will kill his mother is he doesnt.

The fight is actually very good. Batman wears an Ironman suit to give it some credibility, and naturally Kryptonite is his friend. Batman gets the upper hand and in his rage almost kills Superman with a Krytonite spear, until he heart the name Martha. The name of Clark Kent's mother, who he begs to save. But also the name of Bruce Wayne's mother. The last word to cross the lips of Bruce's father before he dies. And then the opening scene becomes clear. I have no idea of Martha was indeed the name of Bruce Wayne mum in the comics or other films. but for the sake of this new cinematic universe it is, and it works because it turns the Batman,m who had becomes a viscous monster back into Bruce Wayne. Once he realizes Superman has a mommy too.

This could have been dreadful, but it actually works. Mainly thanks to Ben Affleck's strong portrayal as Batman, who is  ab east here with so many issues that he makes Bale's version look well adjusted.

 

Up to this point the film, while convoluted actually holds together really well. But ofcourse no modern 200+ million dollar film can end like that, so Lex's Kryptonian beast is unleashed. In a birth that looks a lot like how the Uruk Hai were created in FOTR. (at one point the beast actually resembles the Moria cavetroll too).

From there it's essentially a big epic fightscene between Superman and Batman (who are buddies now) and the mystery woman turns up with all kinds of powers. (at no point does this film refer to her as Wonder Woman.  The last act has some good scenes and shots, but feels disconnected from the rest of the film. And it's ending is essentially a setup for The Justice League.

 

Superman dies! get's a funeral with full military honest (empty box). Clark Kent is buried back in Kansas. But ofcourse there's that final shot..... (fade to black)

 

The film is exactly what I thought it would be. Immaculately shot, very well acted, at time really rousing and effective. But predictably the last act is action, more action, some more action and then even more. Also not all of the setup for the next film works. The Diana Prince stuff is fine. Gal Gadot brings a mysterious allure to the role. But there's a dream scene within a dreamscene from Batman in the middle of the film. (the one where he's taken captive and Superman unmasks him, and then some kind of character coming through what looks like a temporal vortex warning Bruce about the coming danger). And just before the Batman/Supes confrontation there's a scene with Wonderwoman viewing video files of The Flash, Aquaman and some other superhero which again doesnt quite fit there.

 

Barring all this, the script is actually an improvement over the one from MOS, simply because it's more tailored to Snyder's sensibilities as a director. Gone are the endless scenes of exposition for exposition sake. Not everything is bluntly expressed in dialogue and there's a real sense of build up to the inevitable confrontation between DC's greatest.

Even without the monster stuff and the Justice League foreshadowing the story could have been more simply told I think. Though for a script with so many angles I actually had no trouble at all keeping track of everything.

 

The world collapses when Affleck was announced as the new Batman, but he completely own the role. Finally having the gravitas in his 40's that he lacked for the films that made him something of a laughing stock.

The notion that Cavill has no charisma is dispelled here. He's effortlssly this generations Superman. and as Clark Kent is finally able to show a few other shades then just angst.

Eisenberg is a strong Luthor, clearly deranged. and Jeremy Irons is great in the little screentime he has. Another small but key part goes to Holly Hunter, who makes her Senator into something of a feisty gal.

 

Zimmer and Holkenborg team up for what is probably the loudest and most teutonic Superhero score ever. Connected yet dissimilar from both Zimmer's earlier Superman score and his Batman ones. At times having an operatic feel. It's loud, but not without inventive parts, and some measure of delicacy and even grace at times. I'll definitely gives this beast a spin on it's own.

 

Again this feels far more like a Zach Snyder film then Man Of Steef did, which means it will probably be even more divisive. It's also a better film then that one, though far from flawless of free from excesses. Tighten up the story, get rid of the foreshadowing and shorten the final act and it would have been a really good film. As it is it's still a very effective spectacle for those who enjoy them when they are made well.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Are Metropolis and Gotham right next to each other or something?

[Jay 37,287]

They're not supposed to be.  Gotham is like DC's version of Chicago and Metropolis their New York City

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It seemed like NYC and NJ in the movie. Or at the very least, Providence and Boston.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

They're not supposed to be. 

 

Why not? Remember this is a new cinematic universe that like Marvel's will not have everything the same as in the comics.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Gotham is supposed to be about 89 miles away from Metropolis in my universe. But in my reboot, it'll probably be further away.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In my version one if built on top of the other.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Hey, that's actually a great idea!

 

I'm gonna reboot mine right now and incorporate that!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

supposedly they are like Minneapolis and St. Paul, right next to each other. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I liked the Robin suit with a message from the Joker on it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thank God Robin is dead!

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Yes! Annihilate! Kill! Kill! Kill!

[A24 4,326]

On 24-3-2016 at 11:53 PM, Stefancos said:

Thank God Robin is dead!

 

 

 

But ... doesn't that rule out Batman vs Robin: The Dawn Of The Sidekick?!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes it does.

 

Robin seems to be out of fashion in this modern age. Batman should be a brooding loner.

[Wojo 2,453]

13 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

 

 

But ... doesn't that rule out Batman vs Robin: The Dawn Of The Sidekick?!

 

Of course not. In the comics, the guise of Robin has belonged to five characters: Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Damian Wayne. When one Robin dies, retires or becomes a different superhero, another is recruited or volunteers to replace him. 

 

Something tells me that Bruce Wayne just isn't very good or safe to work with for. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"You let your family die!"

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You have a better chance at living serving under Picard in the TNG movies than being Batman's sidekick.

[A24 4,326]

7 hours ago, E.T. and Elliot said:

You have a better chance at living serving under Picard in the TNG movies than being Batman's sidekick.

 

Except when you are one of the two nobodies escorting Kirk or Picard on a mission to some unknown planet. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Doomsday was my favourite part of the movie. I'd watch a spin off movie about him.

And Lois' floating boobs in the bathtub.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

19 minutes ago, Drax said:

Doomsday was my favourite part of the movie. I'd watch a spin off movie about him.

 

Doomsday v Godzilla, right?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

15 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Doomsday v Godzilla, right?

 

Dream drool movie.

[A24 4,326]

A few random thoughts and impressions I had of BvS.

 

To me, it actually felt more like a Nolan film than MOS. Not in amounts of plot, but in its tone. It reminded me of Nolan's Batman trilogy but with less dialogue. There's a lot of just visual scenes and I don't mean action scenes.

 

While I did not hate Eisenberg's Lex Luthor, I did find his "Mmm" a bit annoying. However, the big positive thing about this Lex Luthor is that you actually don't like him, you know, like an old-fashioned, traditional villain. Instead of being the one who steals the show or the cool dude that happens to be bad, you feel his negative presence. Finally villains are unlikable again. Will he make it into the best villain's of all time list? Nope! Not a chance. 

 

I don't know why but I'm so Amy Adamsed out!

 

The big buildup is easily the best part of the movie. They don't throw in an action scene every 5 minutes to feed the audience. No, the movie takes its time to show each perspective. In fact, the buildup is so long, the hate was so strong, that it was an anti-climax to see Batman coming to his senses so quickly. That was a huge 'Huh?!' moment for me. 

 

Batman's long post-apocalyptic desert dream/vision sequence looked downright incredible. Weird and incredible ... Yeah!

 

Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman pulls it off with much ease. See! Snyder can create characters! 

 

I dunno about the final act which to me almost felt like a different movie. BTW, I was never a fan of these superfights where characters are being kicked through buildings in a straight line.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, I sorta liked the score. How about that? The sad Krypton theme, the heavenly choir voices, ... Overall, I thought it was very colorful. Must be Junkie's contributions, right? 

 

There's a scene where many people wanna touch Superman with their hands and it was very reminiscent of a scene with Jesus and the lepers in Jesus Christ Superstar. Is Snyder a fan? Just like me? 

 

As you have guessed by now, I was entertained but it's not a great movie. Maybe not even a good movie but it easily held my interest. Like Steef, I prefer this one over Man Of Steel.

 

 

 

Alex

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

I plan on checking out the Ultimate Cut. The theatrical cut was not very good.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

9 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

Batman's long post-apocalyptic desert dream/vision sequence looked downright incredible. Weird and incredible ... Yeah!

 

Yeah, it was pretty nifty. He kills so many guys!

[A24 4,326]

Forgot to say that I felt that Henry Cavill did a better job than I expected. He wasn't played off the stage by Ben Batman Affleck.

[Wojo 2,453]

Why is Batman the only superhero we think needs to kill? 

 

Iron Man kills, nobody cares. 

Wolverine kills, nobody cares. 

Spider-Man doesn't kill, nobody cares. 

 

It's only Batman that gets this place's collective tampon in a bunch about killing. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

The theatrical cut was not very good.

 

Shut up!

[A24 4,326]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

The theatrical cut was not very good.

 

I will never know ... 

[KK 3,307]

17 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

Forgot to say that I felt that Henry Cavill did a better job than I expected. He wasn't played off the stage by Ben Batman Affleck.

 

Nah. He remains as dull as cardboard. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I like him.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ok just watched the Ultimate Edition. Which adds back half an hour of stuff, the vast majority of it related to Clark Kent/Superman.

The theatrical heavily focused on Bruce Wayne's growing obsessions with the threat Superman poses and quite a lot less on how Batman's increasing violence began to disturb Clark Kent. It also has lots of extra scenes dealing with Lex' set-up for Superman in Africa, which really seemed both too convoluted and too brief in the theatrical. This time it makes a lot more sense.

 

It actually helps make the film a bit less fragmented because it's very elaborate storyline is now allowed to breathe more. Both in terms of plotting and character development for Clark Kent the Ultimate Edition is an improvement.

There are a few extra bits and pieces with Batman or Alfred, Lois, Perry etc. Some extended fight scenes with added violence. Justin and Drax will be pleased that Batman is even more violent and dangerous in this version. Even stabbing a man in the chest.

 

The main weakness lies still in it's ending, which has our three heroes battle a big CGI monster without any character or motivation (I guess monsters dont need any according to DC?)

 

Also the way the film foreshadows The Justice League Movie is at times very clumsy. There's the dream within a dream scene with Bruce, which sorta works in deepining his paranoia towards Supes, but is rather long and convoluted. And just as the big Batman v Superman fight is about to start the film switching to Wonder Woman staring at a computer screen for a few minutes so that Water-Man, Lightning-Dude and Robot-Guy can be introduced.

 

Despite all this the film really does work rather well. Excellent cast too.

[A24 4,326]

It's turns into a different movie from the moment Bats says:

 

Spoiler

"Huh? Why did you say Martha?"

 

Before that moment came I couldn't figure out why everyone said: "This movie is all over the place". I mean, the first 3/4 of the movie is pretty solid. I did ask myself the question: Is this movie entertaining for a bunch of 8-year-olds? And the answer was 'NO'. Maybe that is part of the reason why the film isn't loved as much as Avengers?

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The film doesn't have as many jokes. I counted two.

 

"It's ok, im a friend of your sons"

"I figured....the cape..."

 

And

 

"Is she with you?"

"No, I thought she was with you?"

[A24 4,326]

And they sure can compete with:

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well Perry has a humerous line or two as well.

 

"Crimewave in Gotham! Water.....wet!"

[A24 4,326]

Hey, I laughed with that!

 

 

BTW, this film seems to divide the audience and the critics in an unprecedented way:

 

IMDb: 7/10

Rotten Tomatoes: 27%

Metacritic: 44/100

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would give it 7 out of 10, I reckon. How about you?

[A24 4,326]

The same ... 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well done Zack, now how about something really good next time?

On 9-7-2016 at 8:02 AM, Alexcremers said:

While I did not hate Eisenberg's Lex Luthor, I did find his "Mmm" a bit annoying. However, the big positive thing about this Lex Luthor is that you actually don't like him, you know, like an old-fashioned, traditional villain. Instead of being the one who steals the show or the cool dude that happens to be bad, you feel his negative presence. Finally villains are unlikable again. Will he make it into the best villain's of all time list? Nope! Not a chance. 

 

Agreed. I liked how they made Lex and Bruce Wayne rather similar in many ways. Both are rich orphans with deep psychological problems. Both have an extremely negative reaction to the coming of the Superman. To Bruce he represents the ultimate danger, to Lex he's a manifestation of the cruel omnipotent God who did nothing while his father abused him.

 

Quote

The big buildup is easily the best part of the movie. They don't throw in an action scene every 5 minutes to feed the audience. No, the movie takes its time to show each perspective. In fact, the buildup is so long, the hate was so strong,

 

The ultimate Edition improves upon the theatrical by actually showing not just have Lex manipulates Bruce, but also Clark. Though Batman remains the one with the greatest chip on his shoulder. Affleck does an excellent job showing a Bat who's become consumed by fear and hate. He used to be a bit too lightweight as a leading man, that certainly changed.

 

Quote

There's a scene where many people wanna touch Superman with their hands and it was very reminiscent of a scene with Jesus and the lepers in Jesus Christ Superstar. Is Snyder a fan? Just like me? 

 

That's a bit of a visual theme in that part of the film. The hand outstretched to touch the Saviour of Man. Snyder and Fong do a very good job visualizing the Christ/Superman parallels.

 

 

It's actually my favorite part of the Superman stuff in the movie. We see the Man Of Steel performing all sorts of heroic feats in the service of mand kind, while on TV talking heads real and fictional debate the political and philosophical implications of the Superman. Which is exactly what would happen in real life.

[A24 4,326]

Look and compare that scene from the first pic with this scene from Jesus Christ Superstar. Both Christ and Superman are literally buried by stretching hands.

 

 

 

It could be from the bible but my guess is that Snyder has seen Jesus Christ Superstar.

 

Sorry for the poor quality of the photos. The movie actually looks very good on blu-ray.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah looks like it could be a deliberate homage. Good film too.

[Jay 37,287]

7 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

It's turns into a different movie from the moment Bats says:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"Huh? Why did you say Martha?"

 

Before that moment came I couldn't figure out why everyone said: "This movie is all over the place". I mean, the first 3/4 of the movie is pretty solid. I did ask myself the question: Is this movie entertaining for a bunch of 8-year-olds? And the answer was 'NO'. Maybe that is part of the reason why the film isn't loved as much as Avengers?

 

 

 

Alex, isn't it obvious?

You started right in with the Ultimate Edition; All the reviews and comments you read before then were entirely based on the theatrical cut!

 

I have seen both cuts now and wow - the UE is a VAST improvement on the TC!

 

All the plot holes, head-scratching moments, unexplained things, and pacing problems of the TC are undone by the vastly superior Ultimate Edition!

 

The TC felt both overlong and too short, because its pace was all over the place, many things would randomly happen with no explanation, and other times it felt like an excruciating wait to get to something interesting happening.

The UE fixes all that by having a steady pace and employs very good storytelling for everything that happens.  While the film runs 3 hours long, it doesn't feel like it at all, its paced quite well and never boring.

The UE gives Lois and Clark a chance to be actual journalists, following clue and leads to figure out what is going on.  The African stuff makes so much more sense now, and Lex's plan is actually explained, its much clearer now just how much of the film's events he was behind (turns out almost everything!).

 

It also balances all the character so much better!  The theatrical cut is practically a Batman movie, with Superman and Lois being almost side characters; Superman only had 43 lines in the theatrical cut!  Now Superman and Batman have seemingly equal screen time and the movie is better for it.

 

I haven't been this impressed by a different between theatrical cut and longer cut in a while.  Whoever decided the proper version should be cut down the way it was for theatrical release made a big mistake!

 

 

Now, its not perfect, of course.  The Doomsday ending including killing of Superman is still a questionable ending, and still happens randomly without explanation.  What I mean is, the entire film before then is a carefully constructed sequence of events put into play by Lex.  You've got Lois following the bullet lead to eventually really Lex set Superman and her up in the desert, Batman growing more and more angry towards Supes based on Lex's manipulation of the crippled employee, all climaxing in a great fight between the two.  When the moment comes that Batman finally realizes that Superman isn't his enemy and that Lex tricked them both, the movie could have ended a different way.  Batman could have still gone off to rescue Martha and that same great action sequence fighting the thugs there, and they could have had Superman fight some other kind of battle, and the movie still could have ended with Lex and jail.  They could have saved the whole Doomsday storyline for its own movie, and killed Superman off at the end of that one, when maybe we didn't know if he'd actually come back or not.  The actor was already announced as starring in Justice League before this movie came out, so what is the bloody point of "killing him off"?

 

The whole Doomsday thing is completely unexplained... maybe that's because they wanted it to be a total surprise, but then they put it in the trailer so it wasn't at all!  I have no idea why, after seeing the movie twice, the crashed spaceship is capable of making a creature that gets stronger with every attack and can only be killed by Kryptonite with Zod's body and some of Lex's blood.  The movie makes it unclear if Lex knew all along this is exactly what he'd be able to do in here, or if he just winged it once he got access.  This is why it would have made more sense to save Doomsday for another film, when they could have explained that Lex (or a different character) had years of studying to figure it out or whatever.

 

And  of course the other problem is that it is still, even despite the better pacing and storytelling of the UE, a combination Superman-sequel film, Batman film, and Justice League setup all in one.  Wonder Woman is just great in this movie, but it is kind funny when the enitre movie pauses and she just sits down and watches videos of every other member of the Justice League for a few minutes before the movie resumes   Actually, I didn't mind this as much the second time...

 

 

So in short, anyone who didn't like the TC but is mildly curious about the UE should definitely check it out, as I found it to be a quite massively different film!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Jason. Even though its a hell of a lot longer, the pacing and plotting is a lot better. It will never a perfect film, but its a good one. 

 

The fact that there's a genuine antipathy between the two title characters makes me prefer it over Civil War. 

[Jay 37,287]

I was really surprised by how different the film was with room to breath.  I was just expecting the UE to have more random nods to comic fans thrown in, some more violence or something, and was pleasantly surprised by all the extra PLOT it has.  All the stuff that made no sense in the TC all made sense originally, and they just cut out the explanations from the TC!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The outstretched hands scene looks more like this:

[A24 4,326]

So there's now 3 mild fans of the movie?

[Jay 37,287]

Eh, it's not a film I'd ever want to own or anything, or rewatch any time soon, but its quite the cast to watch go through the machinations of Luthor's plot.  Definitely curious to see the Wonder Woman now; Hopefully its WW1 setting will be as fun as the first Captain America's WW2 setting was

[A24 4,326]

Where would you rank it amongst Snyder's movies?

[Jay 37,287]

1 Watchmen

2 300

3 Dawn of the Dead

4 Sucker Punch

5 Man of Steel / B v S

 

Never saw the owl movie.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole is a masterpiece. I still haven't seen BvS.