Will The Hobbit age as well as The Lord of the Rings?

[Red 75]

Martin Freeman as Bilbo was criminally underused. Perfect casting. 

[Jay 37,319]

Freeman and McKellen are truly excellent in these films

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think Bilbo should have been played by Morgan Freeman instead of Martin.

 

[Wojo 2,453]

A black Hobbit? From where, the lower east side of the Shire? 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The Forest Realm Redemption

 

Bilbo narrating:

"Thorin Oakenshield - who barreled through a river of orcs and came out clean on the other side"

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

- You remember the name of the town, don't you?

 

- Dale. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

On 03/08/2016 at 1:06 PM, Gollum Cat said:

 

I loved the way he handled the end of ROTK - I remember even my father remarking in theatres years ago on how he appreciated that PJ didn't just chunk the ring into the fire and finish, but that he spent generous time wrapping up all the loose ends.

 

 

Loose ends? He forgot completely about the scouring of the Shire. I don't call that wrapping up.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

That's not a loose end.  Making a conscious decision to not adapt a story line isn't a loose end.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

You are right. It isn't a loose end, it's a cop-out.

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Man, I didn't know there was anyone who thought it was essential enough that it needed to be in the movie.  I remember at the time, before I saw the movie, assuming they wouldn't be adapting that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Just now, Disco Stu said:

Man, I didn't know there was anyone who thought it was essential enough that it needed to be in the movie.

 

It's a very important part of the book, and the very core of the story, really, but I always knew there was no way they were going to include it in the film. It's (near) impossible to make it work: you have a big end-of-the-world scenario with a huge climax, and then, after that, you have a few Hobbits fighting a few orcs. I don't see how you could make that work in a film with modern audiences who already want to leave the theater 5 minutes after the Ring has been destroyed.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Richard is just a fart who likes to talk about what's wrong with everything.  

[mstrox 6,647]

Jackson left out my least favorite parts of the trilogy (barrow, bombadil, scouring), so good on him!

 

I do miss the Frodo/Sam/Shelob stuff being at the end of The Two Towers - for me, Sam running after is the most satisfying emotional end to the second portion of their story.  I know why they did it, but that moment in the movie doesn't carry a lot of weight for me.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

It's a very important part of the book, and the very core of the story, really, but I always knew there was no way they were going to include it in the film. It's (near) impossible to make it work: you have a big end-of-the-world scenario with a huge climax, and then, after that, you have a few Hobbits fighting a few orcs. I don't see how you could make that work in a film with modern audiences who already want to leave the theater 5 minutes after the Ring has been destroyed.

 

I agree that it's thematically important and affecting, the idea of going off to preserve your homeland but your homeland being corrupted anyway.  But I'd hardly call it the core of the entire story.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[mstrox 6,647]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Awesome show!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I want my scouring!

[Incanus 5,713]

You shan't have it! Unfortunately!

[gkgyver 1,645]

19 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

It's a very important part of the book, and the very core of the story, really, but I always knew there was no way they were going to include it in the film. It's (near) impossible to make it work: you have a big end-of-the-world scenario with a huge climax, and then, after that, you have a few Hobbits fighting a few orcs. I don't see how you could make that work in a film with modern audiences who already want to leave the theater 5 minutes after the Ring has been destroyed.

 

The point is that not even Nature is immune to the fire of industrialization, but it can be fought off, and nature will prevail. It's a point made throughout all three films, the Scouring of the Shire would not have added much to that.

And certainly not to the extent it would be worth pissing off viewers with a 15 minutes Fake ending.

[oierem 151]

On 3/8/2016 at 3:13 PM, Barnald said:

I don't really see the 'earning' argument myself (I guess I'm fairly myopic when it comes to these things - as in I wanted to see it, that's all that matters), but if the EE's are truly for the fans, and disregard the typical cinematic rules of pacing and whatnot, then I can't see why some of that wasn't included (providing it was filmed).

 

Watching the DoS extras, I knew something was up when Jackson said he didn't reinstate the proper introduction to Thranduil because it harmed the pacing (or something like that). Surely that's not an overriding concerns with the EE's? I thought the logic was that they were for the fans, and the fans would have appreciated something like that drawn (seemingly) from the book. You got the impression with the LOTR EE's they set about adding as much as possible, even if it meant harming the pacing or ruining certain reveals (like the Corsairs for example).

 

You are wrong about the nature of the EE. They are meant to be longer versions of the movie, including stuff that it's not absolutely needed, but they don't forget about the "cinematic rules" such as pacing. They still have to work as proper movies, otherwhise it would just be a bunch of footage put together without any regard. The EE are just longer, slightly more self-indulgent, versions of the movies. That's why there are scenes in both TLOTR and The Hobbit that were not used in the EE either.

That doesn't change the fact that any version of TBOTFA is a huge mess of unresolved subplots and tiring never-ending battles without any sense of realism.

[Jay 37,319]

Pacing is still important in the EEs, but I think Peter Jackson is certainly wrong there because the proper introduction of Thranduil wouldn't have hurt the pace of the EE at all.

 

And yes BOFA is pretty spectacular in the way it never wraps up a large amount of subplots from it and prior movies at all, not even in the EE.

[mstrox 6,647]

I haven't watched the BOFA EE yet, do we get to see that weird Laketown guy's comeuppance?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Do you mean Alfrid aka the Jar Jar Binks of the Middle Earth film series?

[Jay 37,319]

15 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I haven't watched the BOFA EE yet, do we get to see that weird Laketown guy's comeuppance?

 

Yup!

[mstrox 6,647]

47 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Do you mean Alfrid aka the Jar Jar Binks of the Middle Earth film series?

 

Yes, I'm dying for more!

 

36 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Yup!

 

Thank god!  I hope it's silly!

[Jay 37,319]

It sure is!

[mstrox 6,647]

I'm glad that P-Jack took the time to wrap up the one story that counts!

[Barnald 365]

1 hour ago, oierem said:

 

You are wrong about the nature of the EE. They are meant to be longer versions of the movie, including stuff that it's not absolutely needed, but they don't forget about the "cinematic rules" such as pacing. They still have to work as proper movies, otherwhise it would just be a bunch of footage put together without any regard. The EE are just longer, slightly more self-indulgent, versions of the movies. That's why there are scenes in both TLOTR and The Hobbit that were not used in the EE either.

That doesn't change the fact that any version of TBOTFA is a huge mess of unresolved subplots and tiring never-ending battles without any sense of realism.

 

Of course they have to work as proper movies, but still, they are bound to create pacing issues; as such, my point was that Jackson inevitably should not approach these in the same way, and, I suspect, did not for LOTR. A possible issue was that for The Hobbit (DoS and BotFA) at least, I believe Jackson edited the EE alongside the TC, possibly having little real choice (given things like the scoring situation). I don't think he did this for LOTR, but I could be wrong (certainly, he couldn't have done it for FOTR). If so, it might have been that he was in a certain frame of mind which led to him being a little more stringent (I don't think disciplined is the word) with the EE's, cutting things like Thranduil's introduction in DoS.

 

After all, there is a reason quite a few (obviously deranged) individuals prefer the TC's, apparently because they find them better paced (weaklings).

[gkgyver 1,645]

2 hours ago, oierem said:

 

You are wrong about the nature of the EE. They are meant to be longer versions of the movie, including stuff that it's not absolutely needed, but they don't forget about the "cinematic rules" such as pacing. They still have to work as proper movies, otherwhise it would just be a bunch of footage put together without any regard. The EE are just longer, slightly more self-indulgent, versions of the movies. That's why there are scenes in both TLOTR and The Hobbit that were not used in the EE either.

That doesn't change the fact that any version of TBOTFA is a huge mess of unresolved subplots and tiring never-ending battles without any sense of realism.

 

You try to say BOTFA EE is well paced? The added battle scenes destroy any pace the battle sequence had. And the horrid music editing just adds to that.

[Jay 37,319]

I find the pacing of the TC and EE of the first five films is right on the money,  with the pacing of the EE of TTT being the biggest difference and improvement over its TC.  ROTK I think has some pacing issues in both cuts,  though nothing seriously major and overall I'd say it's a success. 

 

BOFA on the other hand is pretty awkwardly paced throughout in both cuts. We're really seeing PJ at his lowest of directing and editing abilities with this film (for me,  FOTR is him at the top of his game)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

So 5 out of 6 films are well paced, but ROTK and BOFA have problems? 

That would make 4 well paced films out of 6.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

He did say it was nothing major regarding ROTK.

[Jay 37,319]

Indeed. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's my line!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Indeed. 

[Wojo 2,453]

Very timely. 

[mstrox 6,647]

I didn't appreciate the pacing of An Unexpected Journey until I saw the next two movies.  Now I miss that slow lope to adventure.

[Jay 37,319]

He cut too much character building and subplot resolution out of the subsequent movies.  TBOTFA needed to be a good 20 minutes longer than it was.

[crumbs 14,304]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

He cut too much character building and subplot resolution out of the subsequent movies.  TBOTFA needed to be a good 20 minutes longer than it was.

 

 

Agree 100%. It's ironic that after all the painful padding in the first two films, the final film ended up being a rushed, unsatisfying mess. It's like after the ROTK ending criticism, Jackson went too far in the opposite direction. BOTFA barely feels like a cohesive ending for the film itself, let alone an entire trilogy.

 

Most egregiously the film doesn't even pay off moments set up in the first two films, notably the buried treasure in Trollshaw (which appears in the prologue of AUJ). Just bizarre stuff.

[mstrox 6,647]

This is my speculation (COMPLETE speculation) - that given the good-but-still-underwhelming box office performance of the first two Hobbit movies, that budget cuts were made.  That combined with time constraints, and BOFA is what we got.

 

My main point of "evidence" is the scoring sessions ending so early, with no further sessions later in post.  The only reasons I can think of would involve slashed budget or a Jackson/Shore conflict.

 

Probably wrong, but it has always been my thought, at least about the score.

[Jay 37,319]

Actually BOFA is the only Hobbit film that actually had a specific EE cue recorded months after the original sessions

I think BOFA is the way it is because Peter Jackson lost his mind.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I remember when the run time was announced for BOFA, I said it probably will end up being too short and compressed.

Most people said no, a tighter movie was welcome. It ended up being just a mess of loose ends.

[crumbs 14,304]

57 minutes ago, Jay said:

Actually BOFA is the only Hobbit film that actually had a specific EE cue recorded months after the original sessions

I think BOFA is the way it is because Peter Jackson lost his mind.

 

Combined with the fact he had no interest in directing these films, because he knew anything after Lord of the Rings would be seen as inferior (and boy was that proven correct). I still find Del Toro's exit from the project a bit suss, and it's a shame the documentaries glossed over the situation. Considering the films that eventuated, I can't shake the feeling there was more studio intervention than we're led to believe.

 

At least the BOTFA documentary was fairly honest in its portrayal of a director who really didn't give a shit about Tolkien's vision by the sixth film; it was egocentric self-satisfaction at that point.

[mstrox 6,647]

20 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

I remember when the run time was announced for BOFA, I said it probably will end up being too short and compressed.

Most people said no, a tighter movie was welcome. It ended up being just a mess of loose ends.

 

A tighter movie COULD have been welcome, just not the one we got.

 

Maybe if we hadn't spent more time on the Feats of Legolas than we did on the Smaug battle and the return to Hobbiton combined.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yep. In the end, the problem wasn't the running time, but the way it was allotted to each character and subplot.

[Jay 37,319]

Right, that's what I meant.

[crumbs 14,304]

Hard to believe the film ends only 6 minutes after Bilbo farewells the dwarves, especially considering how strong Freeman was in his portrayal of Bilbo. Jackson seemed so distracted with all the extraneous characters, all the technological improvements, all the distractions from the core of the story, that he didn't even realise the strength of his own actors.

 

The heart of the story was always Bilbo. The most touching scenes all involve Bilbo. Yet he's a supporting character in his own movie.

[gkgyver 1,645]

45 minutes ago, mstrox said:

 

A tighter movie COULD have been welcome, just not the one we got.

 

Maybe if we hadn't spent more time on the Feats of Legolas than we did on the Smaug battle and the return to Hobbiton combined.

 

Aside from a few minutes of his fight with Azog, and a line here and there with Tauriel, Legolas really is NOT the problem why the Film seems too short.

The problem is not the time given to each subplot and character, as BB said, it's that ALL the subplots were given too little time. AUJ and DOS both built up many different plots, which BOFA could not finish because of the time given to the film in general. Each subplot in BOFA is interesting and worth exploring, it was just compressed in a way that it came off as superficial and needless, because no point was really made in any of them.

And I'm really stunned that in a film so hellbent on bridging to Fellowship, it does not add any sort of appendix, no matter how short, explaining or hinting at what happens to Erebor and the dwarves during the War of the Ring.