James Horner's THE ROCKETEER - New 2CD Intrada Expanded

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

That's not at all unusual for orchestral recordings. After all, we don't want to turn up and down the volume all the time.

[Smeltington 1,436]

But didn't James Horner want us to turn up and down the volume all the time?

[Jay 37,322]

1 hour ago, gps said:

Sorry, I am still a bit confused. So the 2016 release hast the complete score part (aka "complete program") uncompressed and the OST part (aka "CD program") compressed? And the 2020 hast the OST part also uncompressed - I hope I did get thir correct? That would mean if I already have the original 1991 OST plus the 2016 SE there is hardly any point in getting the 2020 release? If I am interested in uncompressed music that is...

Thanks for any information or clarification!   

 

1991 OST album = people like the sound

 

2016 Intrada main program = people complained about the sound

 

2016 Intrada OST album portion = they used the same master as the 1991 CD

 

2020 Intrada main program = they changed the mastering to sound more like the OST

 

2020 Intrada OST album portion = still the same

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Is the 2016 Intrada main program close to the film mix?

[crocodile 7,989]

So people like the new 2020 sound which is compressed? I'm confused.

 

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

23 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Is the 2016 Intrada main program close to the film mix?

Yes.

[Jay 37,322]

Again I go back to MV from LLL's words about the sound, quoted on the previous page of this thread:  "disc one feels like all the passion has been sucked out of the recording. It's almost muffled. It's like a stack of sweaters were on top of my speakers. I'm straining to hear something and my ears are 18 inches from the speakers"

 

Roger's explanation for the difference in sound between their new main program and the old OST was that it was simply because the dynamic range wasn't as compressed as the OST, however, I don't know if his explanation is necessarily correct 🤷‍♂️

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

If MV was straining to hear something when his ears were 18 inches from the speakers, he probably should turn up the volume, or just remove his sweaters.

[gps 8]

 19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Again I go back to MV from LLL's words about the sound, quoted on the previous page of this thread:  "disc one feels like all the passion has been sucked out of the recording. It's almost muffled. It's like a stack of sweaters were on top of my speakers. I'm straining to hear something and my ears are 18 inches from the speakers"

 

Roger's explanation for the difference in sound between their new main program and the old OST was that it was simply because the dynamic range wasn't as compressed as the OST, however, I don't know if his explanation is necessarily correct 🤷‍♂️

 

Yes, exactly. The compressed OST part seems to sound better than the complete program uncompressed. This is not about the 1991 OST, this is just the OST part on the 2016 set.

 

He also writes:

"This compression seems to be the dominant choice for mastering these days..."

...as opposed to 1991! For me this sounds like the 1991 OST is uncompressed!

And going back to the 1991 volume and EQ for me seems like the 2020 should be uncompressed as well.

[Jay 37,322]

I decided to round up all the posts I saw about the sound in the FSM thread.  Here they are:

 

 

 

~

 

"It sounds fantastic"

 

"everything sounds fabulous"

 

"I've listened to about half of disc one, and it sounds sublime to my ears."

 

"Same here. Sounds great."

 

"Too bad the film score tracks are so darn quiet. I thought the original disc was mixed a little on the quiet side, so I expected Intrada's tracks to have some more umph, but instead they're toned down even more. I prefer the 1991 soundtrack version of cues where possible, they sound better to my ears."

 

"I have to agree with The General here. The score tracks totally lack oomph! Where's the POWER?? Where's the PASSION?? In comparison, the album tracks sparkle with life and detail."

 

"Are we sure the new release just has better dynamic range than the original album? I've listened to mine on my ESL Martin Logan speakers and it sounds great to me. I'm grateful this release wasn't brickwallled"

 

"I agree 100%. I am very rarely disappointed with Intrada's mastering. Doug has such a great ear. But the full score presentation of The Rocketeer sounds very, very weak indeed. Especially when comparing like-for-like cues on disc 2 like The Zeppelin! This is music which should be allowed to soar."

 

"I would say that maintaining dynamic range is great, but if you "look" at a lot of the cues in question here, they are extremely quiet and the tallest peaks come nowhere near the maximum volume. The volume and power could be increased without sacrificing the dynamic range. And I personally am not a fan of maintaining true dynamic range when the purpose is to hear the true difference between a cue that is 99% music you can't hear/appreciate and 1% deafeningly loud cymbal or drum crashes. I don't want to sacrifice hearing the rest of the cue in detail just so I can hear the normal difference between an extremely loud percussive moment. But like I said earlier, most of the cues could take some more oomph without pushing their peaks through the roof."

 

"I have not noticed any problems with the new release of The Rocketeer. Sure it is quiet at times but if you turn it up you get the full oomph just like you should. Sure it is quiet but I'll take that over compressed"

 

"These cd's are fine there's no sound issues"

 

MV: "I finally listened to this release. I hardly ever bitch about a release from another label. I love Intrada like a brother, but I really am disappointed with Disc one. Rocketeer is one of my favorite scores of all time, but disc one feels like all the passion has been sucked out of the recording. It's almost muffled. It's like a stack of sweaters were on top of my speakers. I'm straining to hear something and my ears are 18 inches from the speakers. What gives? I want to cry right now."

 

"I've listened to disc 1 precisely once, and it's one of my favourite Horners. It just sounds... flat and unpleasant. I love Intrada beyond words but I'm crushed by how this came out. The album presentation sounds glorious and that's still my go-to disc!"

 

Roger: "I do have to say I am baffled by the comments though. I was just blasting Flying Circus in my car this morning and the bass drum hits caused my car to rumble, the screaming brass were exhilarating. It was just full on! I didn't hear anything that sounded like it lacked passion, was lifeless, etc. I just don't hear it!"

 

"Personally, I really enjoy the Intrada release of The Rocketeer. The recording is certainly full of life. It is mixed quietly in many places, but that's reflective of the music itself I think."

 

Roger: "This was about preserving the natural dynamic range (like all those famed Mercury Living Presence recordings from time long past!). So yes it may sound quieter because of that. That's why we included the original program for people who prefer the compressed range."

 

MV: "We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Roger. Perhaps some day you'll take me for a ride in your car and we can listen to it together...a long car ride that will most likely end with a stop in the woods and a shovel you have for me in your trunk. Lord knows I probably deserve it. ;)"

 

"I also listened to The Rocketeer in my car this week... and I thought it sounded great - no complaints about sound quality at all on this end."

 

"I'm on the side of "Loving it" . Granted I don't have a swell audio system at home, so for me it's either listening in the car, or on my MP3 player. But for me it sounds great."

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Roger: "I do have to say I am baffled by the comments though. I was just blasting Flying Circus in my car this morning and the bass drum hits caused my car to rumble, the screaming brass were exhilarating. It was just full on! I didn't hear anything that sounded like it lacked passion, was lifeless, etc. I just don't hear it!"

 

Someone should tell him to turn off the bass boost.

 

Anybody else a bit alarmed that the head of a specialty soundtrack label uses the sound system of his frickin car as a reference?

[A. A. Ron 1,740]

I mean this is the same guy who thinks that providing album art on the Intrada storefront is "a courtesy" and not a necessary part of the business.

[Amer 2,080]

So I understand Disc1 or rather The Feature film presentation has been remixed and remastered. Is the OST Program on Disc 2 also treated as same? i. e. restored to similar treatment? I vaguely remember doing the A & B comparison for both the Intrada and OST pressing and still thought the Hollywood Records OST pressing sounded way better dynamic wise. 

[Jay 37,322]

5 minutes ago, Amer said:

So I understand Disc1 or rather The Feature film presentation has been remixed and remastered. Is the OST Program on Disc 2 also treated as same? i. e. restored to similar treatment? I vaguely remember doing the A & B comparison for both the Intrada and OST pressing and still thought the Hollywood Records OST pressing sounded way better dynamic wise. 

 

2 hours ago, Jay said:

 

1991 OST album = people like the sound

 

2016 Intrada main program = people complained about the sound

 

2016 Intrada OST album portion = they used the same master as the 1991 CD

 

2020 Intrada main program = they changed the mastering to sound more like the OST

 

2020 Intrada OST album portion = still the same

 

[Amer 2,080]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

I just needed the 3rd and 5th comments. The rest were superfluous. 😂

[gps 8]

OK, I just compared the title tracks from the original OST, 2016 OST and 2016 complete score in Audacity. The OSTs are practically identical, the complete score is bit lower overall but actually also seems to have more dynamic range. For example when comparing levels in passages 3:25 min. vs. 3:52 min.

Well, I guess I'll stick with what I have already. No need for the remaster, whatever direction it actually might be going in the end... I does not seem to make a really massive difference anyway.

Thanks a lot fot your feedback! 

[Jay 37,322]

No problem - now get yourself an avatar image!

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's not at all unusual for orchestral recordings. After all, we don't want to turn up and down the volume all the time.

 

That's a misinterpretation of what dynamic range and dynamic compression are about. The standard these days, at least in "pop music", seems to be excessive brickwalling, because people listen to it in cars and on the street, and used to listen to it on cheap radios. Soundtracks, although they originate from classical music, nowadays have a significant share of their audience coming more from a "pop" than a classical background, so probably tend to be influenced by those mixing choices as well. On the other hand, you have the audio purists, who cry out every time a recording is compressed by half a bit, because anything but the maximum dynamic range is supposed to be too modern and bad. I find it funny that the complaints about this (previous) release are now the complete opposite. (It's been a while since I've listened to it, but I don't recall having any complaints about the sound).

 

What *should* of course dictate the dynamic range of a release is the music on it, and the intended sound of the recording. There are two schools of thinking when it comes to recording classical repertoire: One tries to replicate the sound of a live performance in a concert hall, while the other considers that impossible to begin with and opts for defining its own sound. Modern orchestral film music, as a studio-bound medium, mostly goes the second route (with striping and everything). My personal preference depends on the music, but on average I prefer an "ideal concert hall" sound, i.e. something that sounds natural (i.e. not too dry and not too close), but still lets me hear all the details that often get lost in real concert acoustics.

 

So if you have a piece of classical music that ranges from pppp to ffff and complain that you have to change the volume all the time, complain to the composer, or use live dynamic compression if you're listening under problematic conditions. It's not the fault of the recording if it has a huge dynamic range, in fact it would be at fault if it didn't. Which is not to say that excessive dynamic range is always and unquestionably the right choice - there's Herbert von Karajan's digital Der fliegende Holländer which, except for key moments, is very unnaturally quiet - in a live performance, you wouldn't hear 90% of it under the rustling and coughing of the audience. Just because you *can* extend the dynamic range to maximum doesn't mean you should.

 

Side note for the "maximum dynamic range is the only way to go" and "analogue is so much better than digital" crowd: Digital recordings can have a much higher dynamic range than analogue ones, and the maximum dynamic range of a CD far exceeds that of a vinyl record.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I'm going to say this again because people seem to think the botched Intrada CD is just a case of altered dynamic range. It goes beyond that. Instruments are dialed way down in this mix and the OST sounds better. 

 

Please compare approximately 7:35 in Rendezvous at Observatory film score with OST. This was one of the most obvious blunders. The brass is mixed way too low on the film score version. It's also not accurate to how the score sounds in the movie itself, so I'm not sure what happened.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Or just listen to the OST because it has all the music you need to appreciate the score!

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

That's a misinterpretation of what dynamic range and dynamic compression are about.

 

I may have expressed myself badly, but I don't understand your criticism. I was thinking specifically of listening on a home stereo, which I guess most CD albums of orchestral music are intended for.

 

A living room doesn't support a high dynamic range as well as a concert hall, of course. I have several CDs where I'd say the dynamic range is too wide for practical home listening.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

19 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

A living room doesn't support a high dynamic range as well as a concert hall, of course. I have several CDs where I'd say the dynamic range is too wide for practical home listening.

 

I have just the one, I think.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Well, most people have neighbours and/or other people in their household, which makes the dynamic range of for example Dutoit's The Planets rather impractical.

 

23 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I have just the one, I think.

 

That's probably because most of your CDs have a compressed dynamic range. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, most people have neighbours and/or other people in their household, which makes the dynamic range of for example Dutoit's The Planets rather impractical.

 

If people can't manager their cohabitants or neighbours, dynamic range can be compressed live during playback on many modern devices. And for playback software, it's a simple filter. It's a bad reason for compromising the quality of a recording for everyone.

 

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's probably because most of your CDs have a compressed dynamic range. 

 

I've never had a problem with the Dutoit Planets.

[A. A. Ron 1,740]

3 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I'm going to say this again because people seem to think the botched Intrada CD is just a case of altered dynamic range. It goes beyond that. Instruments are dialed way down in this mix and the OST sounds better. 

 

Please compare approximately 7:35 in Rendezvous at Observatory film score with OST. This was one of the most obvious blunders. The brass is mixed way too low on the film score version. It's also not accurate to how the score sounds in the movie itself, so I'm not sure what happened.

 

I betcha the mix is the same on this new version and Doug did nothing more than compress the existing master.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's a terrible mix!

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

10 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

dynamic range can be compressed live during playback on many modern devices.

 

Live compression isn't a very good option, though. Most album releases are made primarily for the general consumer, whether you like it or not.

 

10 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

If people can't manager their cohabitants or neighbours

 

Ah, so you're the inconsiderate neighbor. Always one, there is.

[1977 1,743]

22 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

So if you have a piece of classical music that ranges from pppp to ffff and complain that you have to change the volume all the time, complain to the composer

 

Exactly. Or listen to pop.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

13 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Live compression isn't a very good option, though. Most album releases are made primarily for the general consumer, whether you like it or not.

 

Limited edition soundtrack releases certainly are not made for the general consumer.

 

13 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Ah, so you're the inconsiderate neighbor. Always one, there is.

 

I'm loud, but I'm considerate.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

10 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Limited edition soundtrack releases certainly are not made for the general consumer.

 

As I've been doing since the start of this exchange, I'm still speaking about orchestral music recordings in general.

 

10 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I'm loud, but I'm considerate.

 

It's not always possible to combine those two.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

46 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

As I've been doing since the start of this exchange, I'm still speaking about orchestral music recordings in general.

 

Alright. But I stick by my claim: If it's written and played ppp, it shouldn't be mixed f.

 

46 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's not always possible to combine those two.

 

I'm not the one who comes home at 5 in the morning (well, up to this point, it can apply to me, but not what comes next) and immediately plays the same song at max volume three times in a row so the whole house can hear it. Ok, so that was years ago, but at one point the played a dance remix of Johnny Cash.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

a dance remix of Johnny Cash.

 

Some people just insist on having bad taste. 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I have not heard this release but...Intrada has the best sounding releases of any label. Trust me.

Some compression is desirable on when an orchestral recording has very quiet passages.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

Intrada has the best sounding releases of any label. Trust me.

 

They're good, but I'd say LLLR has the edge when it comes to quality and attention to details, be it packaging or the audio itself.

[Jay 37,322]

The label doesn't really matter when it comes to these issues, it's the producer that has the biggest impact (after the quality of the elements themselves)

 

If Mike Matessino had produced the Rocketeer, we likely wouldn't be having these discussions

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

The label executives of course set the budgets, which determines the amount of time the producers have available to try to make it a good release.

[crocodile 7,989]

Well I'll wait and see what the opinions are before buying this. Never had any issues with the previous edition but it would be interesting to compare.

 

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

30 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Well I'll wait and see what the opinions are before buying this. Never had any issues with the previous edition but it would be interesting to compare.

 

Karol

Ditto.

[A. A. Ron 1,740]

8 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Intrada has the best sounding releases of any label. Trust me.

 

This isn't just wrong, it's laughable.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

The label doesn't really matter when it comes to these issues, it's the producer that has the biggest impact (after the quality of the elements themselves)

 

If Mike Matessino had produced the Rocketeer, we likely wouldn't be having these discussions

 

^ Exactly this.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

This isn't just wrong, it's laughable.

 

 

^ Exactly this.

Said by folks who listen to music on computers.

Or, with headphones which have no doubt damaged your hearing.😠😝

[Jay 37,322]

That has nothing to do with the product being delivered.  The final sound is determined by the producer hired, and the person who did the final mastering.  Any label can hire and producer and masterer they want.  You cannot empircally say one label has "better sound" than another label.  It doesn't work that way.  These albums are made by humans, not by entities.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Consistency is what I'm talking about.

Listen to any CD that has Fake/Brought on-.HOMEWARD BOUND as an example

Doug has a great ear and knows how to make a great sounding disc!

[Jay 37,322]

In your opinion.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

In your opinion.

Yes, of course but...

I do have a trained musical ear FWIW😊

2 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Yes, of course but...

I do have a trained musical ear FWIW😊

...

And a high quality, full spectrum , VINTAGE. stereo system!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The dialed down brass in the film score version is unforgivable. It is horribly mixed compared to the album and movie. 

[Jay 37,322]

And that's something one producer might have noticed and worked on, and a different producer might have missed.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

 Nobody's perfect. Not even Fake!😊

[Holko 9,499]

Especially Fake.

[Tom Guernsey 2,281]

On 6/23/2020 at 6:43 PM, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I'm going to say this again because people seem to think the botched Intrada CD is just a case of altered dynamic range. It goes beyond that. Instruments are dialed way down in this mix and the OST sounds better. 

 

Please compare approximately 7:35 in Rendezvous at Observatory film score with OST. This was one of the most obvious blunders. The brass is mixed way too low on the film score version. It's also not accurate to how the score sounds in the movie itself, so I'm not sure what happened.

 

Man, I'd never noticed before, the percussion swamps the brass there... seems a bit odd, especially when the trumpets are so clear on the original album. Maybe that's closer to the film mix or something? Now I have to decide whether to repurchase (I did for the Elfman Batman, which was definitely worth it).

[bruce marshall 1,315]

7 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

Man, I'd never noticed before, the percussion swamps the brass there... seems a bit odd, especially when the trumpets are so clear on the original album. Maybe that's closer to the film mix or something? Now I have to decide whether to repurchase (I did for the Elfman Batman, which was definitely worth it).

The Elfman ost sounds better than the film version( BATMAN)