The BFG THEMES Discussion

[curlytoot 97]

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

There's no doubt that the main theme, the "friendship theme" and the "probably the b section" theme can all lead directly into each other and all sound well together, and many tracks on the album have different combinations of them all together.  Makes it a bit harder to pinpoint their meaning

 

I agree. But my rationale is as follows:

 

In "Blowing Dreams", you have the B theme... and then, after a pause, the friendship theme. These sound like two distinct themes.

 

In "Finale", the main theme plays, THEN the B theme... and then—again—after a brief pause, the friendship theme.

 

In "Sophie and the BFG", the main theme is again directly followed by the B theme in both its first and final iterations—beginning and closing the track.

 

Basically, the B theme is more often linked directly to the main theme than the friendship theme is. It is also worth noting how naturally the B theme spins out of the main theme. This feels like a TFA-esque move (withholding the Force theme) by JW, withholding the "full theme" (really perhaps two themes, but connected together) until towards the end of the score. Unless I am mistaken and it appears earlier-on in complete form. Either way, the point stands.

 

It's interesting, because the B theme's first appearance (the clarinet rendition, I believe) is standalone. I feel like Williams leads us to believe that it is totally separate from the main theme... until we get the realization later on that it is all connected, and is in truth the natural progression from the main theme. 

 

Either way, I just think there is a stronger case to be made for the B theme being... the B theme. 

 

[JacksonElmore 69]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Good point. Can you confirm that we only hear the  "giants netted" theme in the ending of the film? Is it yet another theme for the Giants or a theme for the situation?

[Jay 37,305]

7 minutes ago, curlytoot said:

Basically, the B theme is more often linked directly to the main theme than the friendship theme is. It is also worth noting how naturally the B theme spins out of the main theme. This feels like a TFA-esque move (withholding the Force theme) by JW, withholding the "full theme" (really perhaps two themes, but connected together) until towards the end of the score. Unless I am mistaken and it appears earlier-on in complete form.

 

It's interesting, because the B theme's first appearance (the clarinet rendition, I believe) is standalone. I feel like Williams is leading us to believe that it is totally separate from the main theme... until we get the realization later on that it is all connected, and is in truth the natural progression from the main theme. Either way, I just think there is a stronger case to be made for the B theme being... the B theme. 

 

 

Yes exactly, which is why i said above:

28 minutes ago, Jay said:

If that IS considered a B Section of the main theme,  that means the B Section is introduced in the film before the A section!

 

Which would be interesting, but probably not without precedent (?)

 

4 minutes ago, JacksonElmore said:

Good point. Can you confirm that we only hear the  "giants netted" theme in the ending of the film? Is it yet another theme for the Giants or a theme for the situation?

 

That definitely was a one-off melody in the film only covering the sequence with the giants on the new island, from what I can recall.

[curlytoot 97]

Yeah, I agree. Really genius of him.

[Jay 37,305]

I'm starting to wonder if the theme from the second half of Giants Netted is like a development / variant of earlier material?

[King Mark 3,626]

I think there is a B theme we only hear in the End Credits together with the main theme

 

I think the friendship theme is different

 

I was surprised the nightmare had it's own theme

 

And I guess we can call the solos flutes a themes for the normal dreams flying around

 

[Jay 37,305]

58 minutes ago, king mark said:

And I guess we can call the solos flutes a themes for the normal dreams flying around

 

Yup. I didn't notate it as such in the list cause its not really a melodic theme, more of an instrumentational one.

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, king mark said:

I think there is a B theme we only hear in the End Credits together with the main theme

 

 

You sure about that?  Look over the main post.

 

What is the specific timestamp of the part you're talking about?

[JacksonElmore 69]

I like the 'torn apart' like phrases from 4:09-4:15 of 'witching hour.'

 

Also, Every time i get to  1:53 of dream country I swear yoda's theme is about to pop up, especially from 1:55 to 2:01. It almost sounds like harmonization of yoda's theme. 

On a side note, one of my favorite parts of this track is the absolute wonder of 3:42-3:54. It's so magical to me. And i loved being able to see them recording that part in the B-roll footage. 

I'll be seeing this movie again in the next few days, with my dad, who will appreciate the fart jokes much more than my girlfriend. 

I'm going to pay extra attention to the unknown themes mentioned above, dream jars, and also these two other unknown "themes" that i'v personally become interested in. They might just be one offs, or randomly repeated phrases, but i like to think they have meaning. This 5 note motif from Dream Country that is repeated in Sophie and The BFG:

 Sophie and the BFG: 

 

 

 

And also, this oddly warm motif that is heard in Dream Country, Blowing dreams and Building Trust, 

 

Dream Country: [6:38-6:59]

 

Blowing Dreams: [2:45-3:05]

 

Building Trust (This one is a variation, and is less clear): [1:21-1:27]

 

[curlytoot 97]

@Jay, one thing of interest which you may or may not have noticed:

 

THE FURY Motif

 

“The Witching Hour” 0:55

 

“To Giant Country” 1:52, 2:16

 

“There Was a Boy” 3:02

 

“The Queen’s Dream” 2:13

 

“Giants Netted” 0:12

 

“Sophie and the BFG” 1:48

 

Also:

 

Piano Theme

 

“The Witching Hour” 2:48, 3:27

 

“There Was a Boy” 2:11

[Jay 37,305]

1 hour ago, curlytoot said:

@Jay, one thing of interest which you may or may not have noticed:

 

THE FURY Motif

 

“The Witching Hour” 0:55

 

“To Giant Country” 1:52, 2:16

 

“There Was a Boy” 3:02

 

“The Queen’s Dream” 2:13

 

“Giants Netted” 0:12

 

“Sophie and the BFG” 1:48

 

 

Yup that is indeed included in the main post; It is notated as the B Section of the "Giant Country" theme..... do we think it should be separated out into its own theme?

 

I think it just represents the dangers of the giants

 

BTW, I don't agree the melody at 0:55 of The Witching Hour is the same as the other ones you listed...

 

Quote

 

Also:

 

Piano Theme

 

“The Witching Hour” 2:48, 3:27

 

“There Was a Boy” 2:11

 

Also already in the main post.... 

[JacksonElmore 69]

I'v also found yet another motif in dream country somewhere else in the score.

Dream Country: [9:29-9:50]

 

Building trust: [2:28-2:37]

It is also heard at the beginning of dream country. Any thoughts?

[Will 2,215]

15 hours ago, JacksonElmore said:

 

Also, Every time i get to  1:53 of dream country I swear yoda's theme is about to pop up, especially from 1:55 to 2:01. It almost sounds like harmonization of yoda's theme. 

 

 

Yes, that's what I think every time, too! 

 

In fact, there are actually a lot of times in that cue where a melody sounds really similar to a past Williams melody but then goes off in its own direction. I like to think of "Dream Country" as a 10-minute retrospective on JW's career. It's unlikely he did that on purpose but I like to think that he did. 

[curlytoot 97]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Yup that is indeed included in the main post; It is notated as the B Section of the "Giant Country" theme..... do we think it should be separated out into its own theme?

 

I think it just represents the dangers of the giants

 

BTW, I don't agree the melody at 0:55 of The Witching Hour is the same as the other ones you listed...

 

 

Also already in the main post.... 

 

Ah, sorry! Stupidity on my part. Also, though,: 0:55 of "The Witching Hour" is indeed the same; it's just a lot slower. The pitch relationships (of the first 6 notes, at least) are identical to the other appearances of that motif.

[Jay 37,305]

I'll give a listen to that part again!

[Will 2,215]

21 hours ago, JacksonElmore said:

This 5 note motif from Dream Country that is repeated in Sophie and The BFG:

 Sophie and the BFG: 

 

And also, this oddly warm motif that is heard in Dream Country, Blowing dreams and Building Trust, 

 

Dream Country: [6:38-6:59]

 

Blowing Dreams: [2:45-3:05]

 

Building Trust (This one is a variation, and is less clear): [1:21-1:27]

 

 

That five-note melody heard in Dream Country and the end credits that you think is a motif: I don't think it is. Assuming it's indeed only heard twice, then it's just heard in Dream Country and the end credits. And the end credits reference is simply part of a longer segment referencing back to Dream Country. 

 

Now that second possible motif you mention: I think that may well be a motif. I hadn't noticed the similarity between those passages before, but now that you mention it I definitely notice it. Not sure what it represents, though (good dreams?)

6 hours ago, JacksonElmore said:

I'v also found yet another motif in dream country somewhere else in the score.

Dream Country: [9:29-9:50]

 

Building trust: [2:28-2:37]

 

It is also heard at the beginning of dream country. Any thoughts?

 

Yes, I had actually noticed that and was planning to take a closer look, but you beat me to it! 

 

Might it be a theme for dream country? Not only do two of the three appearances happen during the dream country sequence, but the Building Trust appearance is, I believe, heard as the BFG gets ready to leave for work (dream catching, which of course happens in dream country). 

 

I really love this thread, by the way (and the corresponding TFA thread, where incredibly we were still discovering themes months after the film's release). Yes, I got into Williams music because it sounds good, but the thematic complexity (and instrumental complexity, I guess -- I'm not too knowledgable there so I can't analyze much of that) is really amazing and fun to study. 

 

John Williams fandom motto:

 

Come for the great tunes. Stay for the complexity.

 

-------

 

In his review posted in the OST album thread (https://moviemusicuk.us/2016/07/06/the-bfg-john-williams/), Jonathan Broxton calls what we think is the giant country theme the BFG "traveling theme." Thoughts?

[JacksonElmore 69]

20 hours ago, Will said:

 

 

Now that second possible motif you mention: I think that may well be a motif. I hadn't noticed the similarity between those passages before, but now that you mention it I definitely notice it. Not sure what it represents, though (good dreams?)

 

 

With another listen to the ost today i found it a few more times... It is used twice in dream country.

Once, from [6:38-6:59] (as mentioned above), and then is played again in the very background by the strings right here: 

It is most obvious at 7:34-7:40. It is in the background, and sort of hard to pick up on. I did a double take when i subconsciously picked it up 

 

Edit: i actually hear it twice in "the boy's drawings."

First from [0:53-1:07]

This one is much more melancholy 

and then is  hinted at the ending  [2:49-2:54]

at first it seemed like a bit of a stretch here, but then you have to think that obviously Williams thinks about the notes he puts down, and that "do-do-doo" seems too similar to be a coincidence imo.

It is heard in a more melancholy way both times in this track.   

I think @Will is right, it's most likely a "good dreams" thing. It's the only thing that makes sense

Also keep in mind that that "boy's drawings" version of the motif has almost the same backing orchestration (note wise) as the clear dream country version. It's the same repeating two notes in the background 

All of this makes me certain that this little tid bit in "building trust" is yet another version of this motif

 

so i hear it 6 times in the score, 4 of them outside of dream country, where there are many things that seem like they could be motif's but never appear again

[nightscape94 965]

On 7/5/2016 at 0:32 PM, Jay said:

Giant Country
03 To Giant Country 1:54-2:12 (b section)
03 To Giant Country 2:18-2:26 (b section)
14 The Queen's Dream 2:14-2:22 (b section)
17 Giants Netted 0:15-0:20 (b section)
19 Sophie and the BFG 1:50-2:05 (b section)

 

Not having seen the movie, I would have bet money that that theme represented the bad giants.  Sounds like a villainy theme, but I'll trust your judgement.

[Jay 37,305]

You are referring to the b section specifically and not the main theme, right?

Either way, the bad giants are the main inhabitants of Giant Country, so...

[nightscape94 965]

Just sayin'!

[Jay 37,305]

You edited your post!

[nightscape94 965]

I did that before you posted!  You must have seen my unintended original post before I cleaned it up.

[Jay 37,305]

Yes, when I replied you had all the instances of the Giant Country theme in there and not just he b section ones

 

Anyways yes, what i have labeled as the b section could certainly be considered a separate theme representing the bad giants, I said that earlier in the thread somewhere

[Marcus 390]

To paraphrase Twin Peaks: "The flutes are not what they seem".

 

This score is a virtual concerto grosso for flute section and orchestra, and I think the flutes themselves represent a sort of "conceptual leitmotif", and my hunch is that they are sonoric dreams

(much the same way the celesta was a musical shorthand for magic in the Potter scores),

[Jay 37,305]

The flutes solos absolutely represent the good dreams in the film; It's quite obvious when you see the film

[Will 2,215]

I'm now thinking that the theme currently called "BFG/Sophie Friendship Theme" in the main post is actually a theme for just the BFG. 

 

Additionally, I'm pretty sure that "Unknown Theme #1" is Sophie's theme, or a part of her theme. 

 

And lastly, I think the "main theme" is either a part of Sophie's theme or a BFG/Sophie friendship theme. 

[King Mark 3,626]

The "full" Sophie's theme is the last 2 minutes of Sophie and the BFG

[Will 2,215]

3 hours ago, king mark said:

The "full" Sophie's theme is the last 2 minutes of Sophie and the BFG

 

Yep, that's most likely the case. 

[Incanus 5,713]

11 hours ago, king mark said:

The "full" Sophie's theme is the last 2 minutes of Sophie and the BFG

Yes it seems so with clear 2 part structure of the more sweeping and optimistic opening melody and that gorgeous follow-up of that more thoughtful and wistful B-section. JW still writes the most thoughtfully full-rounded themes around.

[Marcus 390]

I have a feeling some of these themes defy traditional leitmotivic identification.

 

Rather, Williams seems to have gone all "sonata form" in his thematic conceptions this time around, and designed whole thematic groups, rather than simply themes. 

 

-There's the main theme (BFG theme), which consists of an A and a B theme, although the B theme also seems to have its own 'B theme' of sorts

 

-Then there's the music for Giant Country and the giants, which includes the jagged juxtaposed minor thirds, as well as two waltz themes; all of these are subjected to such transformations as to at times become almost entirely new motifs. 'Fleshlumpeater' also belongs to this group of themes, as does 'Frolic'

 

 

-The Dream Country music has three main melodic ideas, a broadly lyrical theme with often lydian inflections,  and the somnambulistic lullaby heard twice (once in track 4, for vibes, celeste and synth, and then again in track 10 at ca 02.45 as an oboe solo), although the piano theme heard in track 15 may also be seen as an offshoot from this theme, as well as the fast paced scherzino.  

Additionally, there are textures that may also be seen as endemic to this section of the score (I've already mentioned the flutes)

And I suppose the Nightmare theme (which in itself consists of several motifs) could also be seen as belonging to this thematic group

 

-The 'solo themes' (themes that don't belong to the aforementioned groups) are, as far as I can tell, only the Queen's theme and Sophie's theme (not the BFG one, but the solitary piano melody first heard in track 2)

 

 

 

[Will 2,215]

@Marcus are you saying that the main theme represents the BFG? Before your input, I thought it most likely was part of Sophie's theme, and could possibly be a Sophie/BFG friendship theme, but I didn't think it solely represented the BFG. The one thing that makes me reconsider is how that theme spells BFG.

 

 

[Marcus 390]

7 minutes ago, Will said:

@Marcus are you saying that the main theme represents the BFG? Before your input, I thought it most likely was part of Sophie's theme, and could possibly be a Sophie/BFG friendship theme, but I didn't think it solely represented the BFG. The one thing that makes me reconsider is how that theme spells BFG.

 

 

 

I think it's both/neither:  It's not a character theme per se, but rather a relationship theme. The theme serves them both (though I think the main inspiration for it is the BFG, or the idea of this benevolent giant comforting the orphaned Sophie).

[Jay 37,305]

So you're saying this:

 

Unknown Theme #1 (possibly actually a melancholy B Section of Sophie's Theme)
02 The Witching Hour 2:10-2:50
06 Building Trust 1:44-1:59
10 Blowing Dreams 0:30-0:55
18 Finale 0:00-0:14
18 Finale 0:53-1:01
18 Finale 1:30-2:06
19 Sophie and the BFG 0:49-1:11
19 Sophie and the BFG 6:52-7:42

 

Is basically "Sophie's Theme"?

 

If so, why would be used so infrequently in the score, when she's literally in every single scene?

[Marcus 390]

The theme I refer to as 'Sophie's Theme' is heard in track 2 at 02.50. I think of it as musically depicting her loneliness, so one could also refer to it as a 'loneliness theme', or an 'orphan theme' (the theme you're talking about is simply the B theme of the 'Sophie&BFG Relationship Theme').

 

The main theme -being a relationship theme- also 'subs' for her, but this film isn't so much about Sophie, as it's about Sophie and the BFG.

 

Again, I don't think we should take these leitmotifs too literally. 

[JacksonElmore 69]

I don't agree with that. I think it is a character theme, but at the same time works as an overall theme, like luke's theme, hedwigs theme, etc. It is clearly associated with Sophie

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

So you're saying this:

 

Unknown Theme #1 (possibly actually a melancholy B Section of Sophie's Theme)
02 The Witching Hour 2:10-2:50
06 Building Trust 1:44-1:59
10 Blowing Dreams 0:30-0:55
18 Finale 0:00-0:14
18 Finale 0:53-1:01
18 Finale 1:30-2:06
19 Sophie and the BFG 0:49-1:11
19 Sophie and the BFG 6:52-7:42

 

Is basically "Sophie's Theme"?

 

If so, why would be used so infrequently in the score, when she's literally in every single scene?

 

I don't think so. I think this is a different  theme. Its not possible that the second phrase of a theme is associated only once in the entire score with the first phrase and that too literally in the concluding moments. Both Sophie's theme and this theme get play time separately away from each other and there are instances when Sophie's theme is repeated twice instead of playing this supposed second phrase.

 

I think this is a different theme.

2 hours ago, Marcus said:

 

I think it's both/neither:  It's not a character theme per se, but rather a relationship theme. The theme serves them both (though I think the main inspiration for it is the BFG, or the idea of this benevolent giant comforting the orphaned Sophie).

 

I completely agree with this. It is either a theme for the BGF or the idea of his benevolence or the influence he has on Sophie or their friendship. Mind you when we define it like this, it need not only appear when BFG himself is on screen or is mentioned. It can also appear when Sophie is thinking about him or feeling his influence in her life.

[Jay 37,305]

So @Marcus you're saying this is a personal theme for Sophie?

 

Unknown Theme #2 (Lonliness/Orphanage Theme?)
02 The Witching Hour 2:50-3:56
13 There Was A Boy 2:00-2:29
15 The Boy's Drawings 0:58-1:06 (not sure about this one...)
15 The Boy's Drawings 2:49-2:55 (not sure about this one...)

 

Why would the Main character's theme only be used two-four times in the score?

 

Or did I miss some instances?

[Marcus 390]

31 minutes ago, Jay said:

So @Marcus you're saying this is a personal theme for Sophie?

 

Unknown Theme #2 (Lonliness/Orphanage Theme?)
02 The Witching Hour 2:50-3:56
13 There Was A Boy 2:00-2:29
15 The Boy's Drawings 0:58-1:06 (not sure about this one...)
15 The Boy's Drawings 2:49-2:55 (not sure about this one...)

 

Why would the Main character's theme only be used two-four times in the score?

 

Or did I miss some instances?

 

 

I think TheUlyssian sums it up perfectly.

 

But to reiterate: The BFG main theme (friendship theme) serves as a theme for both, despite not being a character theme for Sophie per se.

[Jay 37,305]

It seems to be more of a theme representing loneliness or orphans, based on its use in he film.  If it was a theme for Sophie, wouldn't he have put it in the end credits?

[Will 2,215]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

It seems to be more of a theme representog loneliness or orphans, based on its use in he film.  Of it was a theme for Sophie, wouldn't he have put it in the end credits?

@Marcus

 

Yeah, I would definitely not call that Sophie's theme. 

@Marcus

 

I can buy the idea that the main theme (meaning only the melody introduced in Overture) is a friendship theme. It's biggest non-credits or album arrangement statement on the OST in Sophie's Future happens as the BFG and Sophie sit together in a beautiful shot where friendship is at the center. There are other examples of friendship where the theme plays too. However, many times it seems the theme is for Sophie specifically, so it's hard to say. Spielberg has said the film's about friendship, so perhaps that's something Williams would have noticed as well and consequently the main theme would be for friendship. Who knows.

 

One thing: As I've said, the melody Marcus calls the B section of the main melody is introduced in a scene with lonely Sophie. Perhaps the B is for the absence of friendship? Or it's for Sophie?

 

When was the last time there was this much confusion about what the main theme in a JW score represented?

 

 

[Jay 37,305]

50 minutes ago, Will said:

When was the last time there was this much confusion about what the main theme in a JW score represented?

 

Not for a long time!  Usually the themes in JW scores are very straightforward in what they represent. (There's certainly no confusion about any of the themes in TFA!)

 

You know, the themes in Book Thief might have been a bit nebulous, but that scored didn't really generate a ton of discussion...

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

(There's certainly no confusion about any of the themes in TFA!)

 

Except for Finn's Theme...I mean the Millennium Falcon's Theme...or wait I mean the Rey/Finn Action Motif.  There was much discussion over that one I seem to remember!

[Jay 37,305]

Hehe, I knew someone would mention that one

It's either Poe's Theme or Finn & Poe's theme, works either way!

Finn's Theme is separate, of course.

[Will 2,215]

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 (There's certainly no confusion about any of the themes in TFA!)

 

I have to disagree with that assertion. Particularly the minor themes caused lots of confusion for those of us who tried to analyze them - and that confusion persists. But in terms of the main theme (Rey's) there was no confusion, of course.

[Jay 37,305]

Rey's Theme... obvious

 

Kylo Ren's Theme... obvious

 

Resistance Theme... obvious

 

Finn's Theme... obvious

 

The theme that's used when Finn and Poe are in an action scene together... easy  enough

 

Yea there's some minor stuff after those, nothing terribly important

 

With BFG, we don't even know what Williams intended the MAIN THEME to represent

[Will 2,215]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Hehe, I knew someone would mention that one

It's either Poe's Theme or Finn & Poe's theme, works either way!

Finn's Theme is separate, of course.

 

I think you misunderstood Stu's post - he was referencing the theme from Follow Me, which I think is Finn's, but you thought he meant the I Can Fly Anything theme, which I think is Poe's. 

[JacksonElmore 69]

Follow me is finn's theme

 

by poe's theme (or finn and poe's action theme) you are talking about the soaring theme that is also heard in the resistance cue, right? I attribute that with poe alone. is it just because i wrote poe a bunch of times or is that a weird name? poe. 

[Jay 37,305]

I consider it Poe's theme too.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

Yeah, I definitely think of that one as Poe's too. My first viewing of the movie it struck me as a Poe/Finn friendship theme, but when I realized the "Farewell & The Trip" statement starts right on that shot of Poe in his X-Wing, that kinda cinched it for me as his alone.

 

I still have a hard time justifying why Finn's Theme (Follow Me) is considered his, though. Besides the fact that John Williams said so....I don't really get any specific association with him in the film, I just think of it as an action motif.

[JacksonElmore 69]

2 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

I still have a hard time justifying why Finn's Theme (Follow Me) is considered his, though. Besides the fact that John Williams said so....I don't really get any specific association with him in the film, I just think of it as an action motif.

I agree with this. At the beginning i just thought it was a cool action motif that was repeated a few times. Then i saw people referring to it as finn's theme and i thought "wtf, it's just an action thing" but then i kinda changed my mind and decided it was finn's theme...I still don't know. DID williams say so? Because if so, then....well then it's finn's theme.  

[Jay 37,305]

The actor said so:

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25748-finn-has-a-theme-in-the-force-awakens-score/