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Complete "Breaking of the Fellowship" NZSO


Gollum Cat

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12 minutes ago, Kühni said:

So how then was FotR such a resounding success (the relatively small amount of tracking and micro-editing notwithstanding)? Beginner's luck?

 

A linear storyline that would not involve heavy back and forth cutting that would obviously impact pieces and Composition heavily.

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Yeah, the big change between FOTR and The Hobbit - or even FOTR and ROTK - was in postproduction.  Things could always be fixed in editorial with enough splicing, but advances in technology make endless tinkering easier.

 

The production was equally chaotic for both (countless rewrites, pages being given to actors morning-of to learn new lines, etc).

 

4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I guess no one else agrees, but I think TTT and ROTK are both resounding successes... :-/

 

I think all three were successes, but each one less so than the previous.

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Just now, mstrox said:

Yeah, the big change between FOTR and The Hobbit - or even FOTR and ROTK - was in postproduction.  Things could always be fixed in editorial with enough splicing, but advances in technology make endless tinkering easier.

 

The production was equally chaotic for both (countless rewrites, pages being given to actors morning-of to learn new lines, etc).

 

 

I think all three were successes, but each one less so than the previous.

 

I can understand the argument, but I'll never forget how emotional and wonderful and perfect the climax and, especially, the denouement of ROTK felt sitting in a theater in December 2003.  There were multiple endings and I loved every one!

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Yeah, the big change between FOTR and The Hobbit - or even FOTR and ROTK - was in postproduction.  Things could always be fixed in editorial with enough splicing, but advances in technology make endless tinkering easier.

 

The production was equally chaotic for both (countless rewrites, pages being given to actors morning-of to learn new lines, etc).

 

4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I guess no one else agrees, but I think TTT and ROTK are both resounding successes... :-/

 

I think all three were successes, but each one less so than the previous.

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4 hours ago, gkgyver said:

That's why the presentation of the score especially in BOTFA is so abysmal in the film. Of course if a composer writes his score months before picture is locked, and records it weeks before, the end result will be awful with PJ.

 

The scores were regularly reconformed to new cuts of the film prior to (and during) recording, but you've got to stop somewhere.  On the subject of Battle of the Five Armies, scoring finished earlier in the year than it did for Desolation of Smaug (and Return of the King).

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FOTR: 178 minutes

TTT: 179 minutes

ROTK: 201 minutes

AUJ: 169 minutes

DOS: 161 minutes

BOFA: 144 minutes

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2 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

 

The scores were regularly reconformed to new cuts of the film prior to (and during) recording, but you've got to stop somewhere.  On the subject of Battle of the Five Armies, scoring finished earlier in the year than it did for Desolation of Smaug (and Return of the King).

 

Of course it was conformed. But a score for a PJ Film cannot survive as a coherent entity when Recording finishes in September/October.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Faleel, did you keep notes about what timestamps in the Lesnie tribute that clean music can be found, and where it gets edited into the EE credits version?

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  • 8 months later...
9 hours ago, Kühni said:

Currently listening to Faleel's eight-minute edit of the alternate Breaking of the Fellowship and it is, simply put, one of the most sublimely beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. Uncomplicated, straight-forward, and utterly moving. Thanks, HS! :)

Where can I obtain this? Has he posted the link somewhere?

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2 minutes ago, Gollum Cat said:

Where can I obtain this? Has he posted the link somewhere?

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23525-the-lord-of-the-rings-score-restored-unused-howard-shore-music-restored-to-picture/

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  • 10 months later...
8 hours ago, Kühni said:

Sixteen years and to the day three months after I first heard a note of HS's music for Middle-earth, I finally figured out my one favourite moment of the 16+ hours of material: from the alternate "The Breaking of the Fellowship" (unsurprisingly), the swelling strings at 4:23 in the tribute video for Andrew Lesnie. Music to move your heart, and stir your soul.

 

 

Hannon le, Howard! :)

The music - alternate and regular - for the river scene at the end of Fellowship is some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard - and some of the hardest to listen to. Not only because that scene is one of most tear-jerking scenes for me in and of itself, but I listened to that music over, and over, and over again in 2013 when I was in extreme despair, almost suicidal, due to having my engagement cut off by my psychologically abusive father. (Same for the last 45 minutes of Return of the King CR.)

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That original version of the FOTR finale is an incredible piece of music.  The upcoming re-issue of the FOTR CR would have been a perfect place to finally release the whole recording, without sections removed, as a bonus track or something but alas, its just a straight reissue of the old program with all the film edits retained and no bonus tracks.


Hopefully one day another archivist is allowed to dig through all the recording and assemble a new album with all the final versions and all the most different alternates into a great new album.

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  • 2 years later...
35 minutes ago, Kühni said:

For my money, the most beautiful music Shore penned for Middle-Earth:

 

 

But that piece mainly consists of music from the song 'May it be' which was not written by Shore but by Enya.

I was also slightly disapointed when I realized that one of my favourite themes from The Hobbit, 'Song from the Misty Mountain' was not written by Shore. But he included it brillantly into his score.

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

But that piece mainly consists of music from the song 'May it be' which was not written by Shore but by Enya.

 

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5 hours ago, Kühni said:

For my money, the most beautiful music Shore penned for Middle-Earth:

 

which part in particular? I assume its one of the segments that distinguish it from the finished piece...

 

I really like the alternate whistle part.

 

Dunno if its the most beautiful, but it sure is up there.

 

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I was also slightly disapointed when I realized that one of my favourite themes from The Hobbit, 'Song from the Misty Mountain' was not written by Shore.

 

If you like the tune, what does it matter if it was Shore who wrote it or someone else. The net result is that there's a tune you like and its in the score.

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5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

If you like the tune, what does it matter if it was Shore who wrote it or someone else. The net result is that there's a tune you like and its in the score.

You might have missunderstood my comment. I was not disapointed by the tune then. I still like it. But it led to less appreciation for Shore's contribution to the body of work. 

It is a little bit like realizing that your favourite song of your favourite singer songwriter was a cover version from someone else.

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

which part in particular? I assume its one of the segments that distinguish it from the finished piece...

 

Correct. When the unreleased music at 3:08 starts, this just...sublime. It isn't complicated music, but its combination of, I dunno, both tranquility, nobility and resolve is so very well brought about by the flute over these massed string chords. And when the celli join the line...scoregasm! I remember when I first watched the EE back in late 2002 and heard this music over the extended end credits, I had trouble breathing, so taken was I by the beauty of this piece.

 

And to learn all these years later that the original (?) composition runs over 8 minutes and wasn't deemed worthy of inclusion on the RA (I know, I know, @Jim Ware...there's only so much one can pack into 79 minutes...BUT I'LL TAKE BEAUTIFUL MIDDLE-EARTH MUSIC OVER TWO GUYS JABBERING ON ANY DAY, SORRY DOUG & HOWARD!)... Well, it's vexing. ;)

 

Faleel has made a wonderful edit of the EE piece and what could be pulled from the Andrew Lesnie tribute (partly in mock-up stage). If you haven't heard it, I strongly recommend you ask him nicely...

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5 hours ago, Kühni said:

If you haven't heard it, I strongly recommend you ask him nicely...

 

I have that, yes.

 

One of the interesting thing about the composition is that it includes a piece of music that, in the finished composition is left unscored: that being Frodo's contemplation by the side of the river. In the NZSO version, its clearly scored, with more beautiful A Hobbit's Understanding music. Wonderful.

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I have that, yes.

 

One of the interesting thing about the composition is that it includes a piece of music that, in the finished composition is left unscored: that being Frodo's contemplation by the side of the river. In the NZSO version, its clearly scored, with more beautiful A Hobbit's Understanding music. Wonderful.

Actually, it scores an extended version of Frodo going into the boat, at first he fails and falls out, then has to try again, some cuts of the final film included the scene, I remember from when I saw it in 2001.

.

.

.

 

 

 

 

 

;)

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On 11/20/2020 at 2:11 PM, Kühni said:

For my money, the most beautiful music Shore penned for Middle-Earth:

 

 

 

I also think the opening of Balin's Tomb and Hope and Memory can compete. Ooh, let's not forget The Eagles. Or Twilight and Shadow. Renee Fleming really made out in that final score, wow.

 

However, Forth Eorlingas is the most necessary of all LOTR tracks. Fight me ;)

 

 

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:55 PM, GerateWohl said:

But that piece mainly consists of music from the song 'May it be' which was not written by Shore but by Enya.

Not one note of that song was written by, or referencing a note written by, Enya.

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3 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

Not one note of that song was written by, or referencing a note written by, Enya.

I just looked it up in the CD booklet of the soundtrack. MAY IT BE, composed and performed by Enya, lyrics by Roma Ryan. 

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They are somewhat similar melodically, with those ascening triplets (?) but definitely not the same, as Breaking is derived from the Shire material.

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1 hour ago, Spider-Fal said:

Breaking is derived from the Shire material.

 

which is why May It Be kinda fits, because its - like the Shire material - is very Celtic-sounding.

 

I believe originally Shore wanted The Breaking of the Fellowship to segue directly into In Dreams (as it does, rather beautifully, on the original album), which was to be the film's proper end-credits song. Then, the prospect of Enya doing an end-credit song came in.

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9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

which is why May It Be kinda fits, because its - like the Shire material - is very Celtic-sounding.

 

I believe originally Shore wanted The Breaking of the Fellowship to segue directly into In Dreams (as it does, rather beautifully, on the original album), which was to be the film's proper end-credits song. Then, the prospect of Enya doing an end-credit song came in.

Well, the OST has both songs together as a sort of suite..

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19 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I just looked it up in the CD booklet of the soundtrack. MAY IT BE, composed and performed by Enya, lyrics by Roma Ryan. 

I'm talking about The Breaking of the Fellowship, not May It Be. Your disappointment in Howard Shore is wholly undue, since no part of The Breaking of the Fellowship contains any reference to May It Be.

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21 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I'm talking about The Breaking of the Fellowship, not May It Be. Your disappointment in Howard Shore is wholly undue, since no part of The Breaking of the Fellowship contains any reference to May It Be.

I just listened to it again. Call me stupid , but even though it is performed in a different key it is still the same theme.

And in none of the LotR or Hobbit soundtracks Shore credits when he uses the film songs in his pieces. And why? The songs are credited and he uses them when it makes sense.

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I absolutely adore that alternate Breaking of the Fellowship. I know it's presented "clean" in the EE credits but I'm sure a proper CD track, sourced from the first generation masters, would be even cleaner. Who knows how many generations removed the home video audio is?

 

Shame they couldn't include it anywhere on the CR or Rarities, even though it was a very different era for score expansions. I wonder how Doug Adams would approach those if he started them in this 2020-era, where complete film presentations followed by a collection of alternates and early versions is commonplace.

 

Having all that alternate material consigned to various album releases is a bit sad for both trilogies. Reminds me of the messy situation with OT Star Wars.

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I believe Doug could have included Breaking of the Fwllowship on the rarities and chose not to since it was already on the EE credits. Pretty sure there was some discussion about that on this forum once.

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38 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Really? So he thought that hey, they can just pop in the EE DVD if they want to hear that particular cue?

 

That’s how I remember it. Can’t say I was happy about it. All the same, I’m sure Doug knows many of us are savvy enough to rip music from our blu-rays.

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4 hours ago, crumbs said:

I wonder how Doug Adams would approach those if he started them in this 2020-era, where complete film presentations followed by a collection of alternates and early versions is commonplace.

 

I remember the rationale of the Complete Recording was to present a narrative in the listening experience, so they made the deliberate decision not to append alternates at the end of the CRs, which I totally get.

 

I do think they could have released the Fellowship CR, The Two Towers CR, then a CR dedicated to a compilation of alternates and finally The Return of the King CR proper. But I'm more than happy with what we've got.

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A quick glance over of the rarities archive thread didn't yield any comments from Doug about the Breaking alternate, but I did find this comment from John Takis about it and the overall artistic intent of the disc.

 

On 9/26/2010 at 6:14 PM, John Takis said:

Hi Everyone,

With Doug out galavanting around the globe, I figured I'd step in and try to address a few comments and concerns. :)

First, a word about "advance reviews" of the Rarities. I realize that people will get what they can get when they can get it, and I'm not one to cast stones. I just want to point out that the Rarities are specifically crafted as a companion to the book. To listen to them before buying and/or reading the book is to get an incomplete -- and potentially misleading -- picture. To discuss them in this context is to discuss a bootleg, and an incomplete product. For a superior experience, I can only recommend buying the book, reading the book, and then listening to the Rarities. I also recommend that you NOT skip the demos and mock-ups, which were carefully selected and placed to be part of the total listening experience. Your tastes may vary, of course -- but that was the artistic intent, so you might want to at least give it a shot. In the meantime, it would be courteous to refrain from open discussion of bootlegged material.

Next, I want to correct a misapprehension about the inclusion of the interview tracks. These did not "bump" any music that would have otherwise been included. On the contrary: without these tracks as a platform, you would NOT have heard any of the alternate opening for "Roots and Beginnings," or the unfinished demo of "Frodo's Song" with Sir James Galway. Things like the alternate recording of "Breaking" are great on their own terms, but didn't fit with the priorities of this album. Doug knew there would be complaints about this ... but as an artist, you have to do what you think best serves the project. In this case, it was felt that it was more important to let the composer's voice be heard directly, without the filter of paper and ink -- and to weave in some fascinating bonuses that there wouldn't otherwise have "fit" with the presentation of material -- than to include content that had already been heard and released in other shapes and forms. "Waste of space" seems a subjective and rather harsh judgment.

Regarding the mock-ups, I'm sorry Luke doesn't view these as "true" pieces of music. They aren't designed to stand alone, however, but to be an integral part of the journey. You cannot fully understand the transition from creative inception to final recorded form without them! Think about all the times we've read about this process without the benefit of hearing ... about Williams plunking out prospective "Close Encounters" themes on the piano for Steven Spielberg. Or performing the two phrases that comprise the "Raiders" march as completely separate pieces, prior to the decision to work them into the same composition. How often have you wished you could have been a fly on the wall when that was being worked out -- a first-hand witness to genius at labor? The LOTR "mock-ups" do just that ... something that is very, VERY rare in this industry, and (to me, at least) incredibly worthwhile and satisfying. If, on the other hand, this opportunity to accompany the composer on his journey of creation doesn't interest you ... well, that's fine ... just don't mistake the ultimate purpose of the album.

The use of a CD instead of a DVD was not a monetary decision, but again relates to the project's artistic priorities. All of the content which the creators felt it was important to include WAS able to fit on the CD. And ultimately, a CD experience is a better reflection of the author's goal: to guide you on a musical journey, rather than drop you into a vast and unwieldy cabinet of curiosities. A DVD "dump" of all the mp3s that could be stuffed onto a disc would have pleased a relatively narrow slice of die-hards. But it would have been joyless and without craft -- an archive in the driest and most technical sense of the term. And it would have overwhelmed the general public, most of whom wouldn't have had the time or inclination to shape a satisfying album out of it all. The current CD can be effortlessly enjoyed as a complementary experience to reading the book. And -- AND -- it still includes all of the most illuminating jewels in the firmament!

Anyway, I know people aren't so much trying to be negative as grappling with their own enormous expectations. Hopefully, this has helped to provide a little context!

 

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6 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I just listened to it again. Call me stupid , but even though it is performed in a different key it is still the same theme.

 

No, it's not. They begin on the same three pitches (which are incredibly common), then they go in completely different directions.

6 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

And in none of the LotR or Hobbit soundtracks Shore credits when he uses the film songs in his pieces. And why? The songs are credited and he uses them when it makes sense.

What does this mean? All credit songs that have contours similar to the score do so because they were made after said score. "Into the West" for example references the Grey Havens theme, not the other way around if you catch my drift.

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