Is Chinatown Jerry Goldsmith's most influential score?

[Thor 7,495]

1 minute ago, Shatner's Rug said:

 

Huh?

 

What?

[mxncr12 4]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

In any case, it seems the topic starter had 'genre influence' in mind when he did this thread (as he specified on the previous page). Then I have to re-iterate what I said earlier: I don't think CHINATOWN was particularly influential in the film noir genre, even if it's a good example of a film noir score. If Goldsmith has had any kind of 'genre influence', it would need to be the erotic thrillers in the wake of BASIC INSTINCT. Arguably also some lofty soundscapes in the wake of ALIEN. But that's VERY arguable. Goldsmith's main influence was a limited one; mostly his general use of odd meters and chord progressions (esp. in action music) that later composers have admired and been inspired by.

The thing is, nobody has disproven my claim that Chinatown was influential/ a touchstone in the noir genre because nobody has brought any examples from film noir scores to compare it with.  Like I said earlier, a forerunner to Chinatown was Goldsmith's The Detective (1968), which is not a noir film and my contention was that Chinatown started the neo-noir scoring trend that continued in Farewell, My Lovely, Taxi Driver, Body Heat, and others..

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The Detective is a neo-noir film, mx. 

[Thor 7,495]

20 minutes ago, mxncr12 said:

The thing is, nobody has disproven my claim that Chinatown was influential/ a touchstone in the noir genre because nobody has brought any examples from film noir scores to compare it with. 

 

That's because the burden of proof is on those who claim it IS influential. If one thinks so, one must be prepared to say why. The fact that no scores can be found that it influenced, is enough proof for the critic that none exists. There were film noir scores before CHINATOWN, and film noir scores after. None after seem to be particularly influenced by it. If anything, CHINATOWN was influenced by the predecessors. More influential 'film noir' scores would be Max Steiner's THE BIG SLEEP, Miklos Rozsa's DOUBLE INDEMNITY, Franz Waxman's SUNSET BOULEVARD and Vangelis' BLADE RUNNER.

 

One could, however, argue that it set an example regarding sparse spotting. Not that there hadn't been sparse spotting before, even in film noir, but it may have set a new bar for the genre in that regard.

[mxncr12 4]

Just now, Thor said:

 

That's because the proof of burden is on those who claim it IS influential. If one thinks so, one must be prepared to say why. The fact that no scores can be found that it influenced, is enough proof for the critic that none exists. There were film noir scores before CHINATOWN, and film noir scores after. None seem to be particularly influenced by it. More influential 'film noir' scores would be Max Steiner's THE BIG SLEEP, Miklos Rozsa's DOUBLE INDEMNITY, Franz Waxman's SUNSET BOULEVARD and Vangelis' BLADE RUNNER.

Obviously, The Big Sleep, Double Indemnity, and Sunset Boulevard did not influence Chinatown or any of the ensuing neo-noir scores that I previously mentioned.  And the Big Sleep, in particular, is actually the opposite of Chinatown.

10 minutes ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

The Detective is a neo-noir film, mx. 

I meant a film noir.

[Thor 7,495]

Just now, mxncr12 said:

Obviously, The Big Sleep, Double Indemnity, and Sunset Boulevard did not influence Chinatown or any of the ensuing neo-noir scores that I previously mentioned.  And the Big Sleep, in particular, is actually the opposite of Chinatown.

 

Not really. True, CHINATOWN is more lowkey, but the seething jazz sounds were present from the early days of the genre (btw, film noir isn't a genre at all, but rather a form of expression. But that's a different discussion -- I'll leave that for now).

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

 

Elevator to the Gallows, great 1958 French noir with an even greater "seething jazz" score by Miles Davis.

[mxncr12 4]

23 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Not really. True, CHINATOWN is more lowkey, but the seething jazz sounds were present from the early days of the genre (btw, film noir isn't a genre at all, but rather a form of expression. But that's a different discussion -- I'll leave that for now).

 

Actually, jazz is nearly non-existent in film noir scoring and mostly appearing late in the genre that resembled a quintet playing along side a film, like Ascenseur pour l’échafaud (Elevator to the Gallows). 

 

The scores from films in the film noir genre did not encompass jazz any more than scores from films that are not film noir during that time period.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jazz didnt really get into film scores till quite a way into the 50's. Courtesy of Alex North

If you wanna talk influential film scores. A Streetcar Named Desire is where it's at!

[mxncr12 4]

33 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Jazz didnt really get into film scores till quite a way into the 50's. Courtesy of Alex North

If you wanna talk influential film scores. A Streetcar Named Desire is where it's at!

 

No doubt, A Streetcar Named Desire is a groundbreaking film score as the first functional, dramatic jazz score for a film.  My contention was that Chinatown was a trendsetter in neo-noir, and thus, arguably Jerry Goldsmith's most influential score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The term neo-noir itself so so specific and obscure that it's fairly meaningless as to pointing to something influential.

[Quintus 5,399]

17 hours ago, Thor said:

 

 

The point is that Goldsmith doesn't have that single, milestone influential score, whether you define influence in terms of sound, approach, technology or industry (or other things), at least not on the scale we're talking here. 

 

 

Sadly, this is true. 

 

Anyways, Star Wars music was not only hugely influential but it absolutely dominated the sound of cinema during the late seventies and throughout the eighties. Why? Because as it happens its composer partnered with Hollywood's most successful (and influential) director of the time and together they made all of American blockbuster cinema sound just like Star Wars for about twenty years.

 

Lonnegan - thought this was common knowledge. 

[mxncr12 4]

40 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The term neo-noir itself so so specific and obscure that it's fairly meaningless as to pointing to something influential.

 

Specifically, I would say Chinatown's bluesy main title/motif, fashioning a melodic identification for the film and the characters.  

 

Farewell My, Lovely, Taxi Driver, Body Heat, Prince of the City, and Mulholland Falls seem to have continued that trend; LA Confidential, The Black Dahlia and, to some extent, Hollywoodland, also fit that vein.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

How about The Omen?

[Quintus 5,399]

11 minutes ago, mxncr12 said:

 

Specifically, I would say Chinatown's bluesy main title/motif, fashioning a melodic identification for the film and the characters.  

 

Farewell My, Lovely, Taxi Driver, Body Heat, Prince of the City, and Mulholland Falls seem to have continued that trend; LA Confidential, The Black Dahlia and, to some extent, Hollywoodland, also fit that vein.

 

I agree with this. 

 

Also, did anyone hear the classy score to the LA Noire video game? It's basically an alternate Chinatown score. 

[mxncr12 4]

31 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

How about The Omen?

I would say The Omen, in the horror genre, is probably the other score besides Chinatown that could be argued as Jerry Goldsmith's most influential score.

[Thor 7,495]

3 hours ago, mxncr12 said:

 

Actually, jazz is nearly non-existent in film noir scoring and mostly appearing late in the genre that resembled a quintet playing along side a film, like Ascenseur pour l’échafaud (Elevator to the Gallows). 

 

The scores from films in the film noir genre did not encompass jazz any more than scores from films that are not film noir during that time period.

 

Not quite. True, many of the earlier film noirs were not as "on-the-nose" jazzy as later excursions into the idiom (post-STREETCAR), but they definitely used jazz-like elements within the orchestral palette -- especially with this seething, dark romance penetrating it. Even in Steiner's THE BIG SLEEP. Listen to something like David Raksin's LAURA, for example. That has jazz chords all over it.

 

1 hour ago, mxncr12 said:

I would say The Omen, in the horror genre, is probably the other score besides Chinatown that could be argued as Jerry Goldsmith's most influential score.

 

I can't really see much of an influence in any definition of the word. Very marginally, at most. Maybe stuff like Young's HELLRAISER, but as previously mentioned, Young is quite inspired by Goldsmith in general. I would argue that ALIEN was more influential as far as horror and sci fi is concerned, especially of the more lofty kind. But again -- a fairly limited influence.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Basic Instinct was a very influential thriller score. Though I'm sure Thor will deny this.

[chuck 154]

Do these "influences" mentioned still apply to today's scoring idiom? (and by today I mean the 2010's)...

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Glad to see everyone is putting their high school debate experience to good use.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

YOUR MUM!

[Thor 7,495]

35 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Basic Instinct was a very influential thriller score. Though I'm sure Thor will deny this.

 

Have you been following the discussion at all? I've mentioned BASIC INSTINCT several times, as an influential score in the 'erotic thriller' genre (at least for a few years).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How is that any different from Star Wars? Which was an influential score for a few years till Flashdance came along.

[mxncr12 4]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

Not quite. True, many of the earlier film noirs were not as "on-the-nose" jazzy as later excursions into the idiom (post-STREETCAR), but they definitely used jazz-like elements within the orchestral palette -- especially with this seething, dark romance penetrating it. Even in Steiner's THE BIG SLEEP. Listen to something like David Raksin's LAURA, for example. That has jazz chords all over it.

 

 

I can't really see much of an influence in any definition of the word. Very marginally, at most. Maybe stuff like Young's HELLRAISER, but as previously mentioned, Young is quite inspired by Goldsmith in general. I would argue that ALIEN was more influential as far as horror and sci fi is concerned, especially of the more lofty kind. But again -- a fairly limited influence.

 

I think that Laura can be seen as an antecedent/echo/distant cousin of Chinatown.

 

Here's a great passage that discusses the contrasting scores of Chinatown and The Big Sleep.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1SKfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&dq=chinatown+big+sleep+steiner&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV1vHcy4LOAhWTdSYKHSthCTAQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=chinatown big sleep steiner&f=false

 

As for The Omen, while that score wasn't really what I was interested in discussing at all, some say that the score was influential being the first to emloy a choir in an avant-garde style.

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/omen.html

 

Whether that's true or not I do not know.

[chuck 154]

12 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

How is that any different from Star Wars? Which was an influential score for a few years till Flashdance came along.

 

Don't you mean Flash Gordon?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No.

[chuck 154]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

No.

[Thor 7,495]

Are you comparing the influence of BASIC INSTINCT to that of STAR WARS, Stefan? Seriously?

[A24 4,331]

21 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

How is that any different from Star Wars? Which was an influential score for a few years till Flashdance came along.

 

Flashdance ... Is that a code word for Zimmer? If so, you're right, he single-handed ended the Romantic Williams era. Believe it or not, but sooner or later someone will end the Zimmer era.

 

 

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, Thor said:

Are you comparing the influence of BASIC INSTINCT to that of STAR WARS, Stefan? Seriously?

 

I'm saying that they are both influential. But once influence has been overrated. It's not like there werent any orchestral scores done for decades before 1977.

[Thor 7,495]

8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

I'm saying that they are both influential. But once influence has been overrated. It's not like there werent any orchestral scores done for decades before 1977.

 

Nor does anyone claim so. But the old-school, neo-romantic score had been out of fashion for years (at least since the late 60s). STAR WARS re-ignited that popularity, especially for the genre it accompanied. The influence -- both in terms of approach and industry -- was massive, and can hardly be overrated.

 

BASIC INSTINCT, on the other hand, served as a template for a certain type of niche genre for a few years, and ended there (although you can still hear remnants of it, like Anne Dudley's score for Paul Verhoeven's ELLE -- one of the greatest masterpieces of this year).

 

Apples and oranges.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2001: A Space Odyssey re-ignited that 10 years earlier though.

Like Pub said. A couple of scores after Star Wars followed suit. But it didnt really last. The pop score became the dominant musical trend for the 80's.

[mxncr12 4]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

BASIC INSTINCT, on the other hand, served as a template for a certain type of niche genre for a few years, and ended there (although you can still hear remnants of it, like Anne Dudley's score for Paul Verhoeven's ELLE -- one of the greatest masterpieces of this year).

 

Apples and oranges.

 

Don't know if you saw my earlier post but it featured a passage illustrated the clear divergences throughout the scores to The Big Sleep and Chinatown.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1SKfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&dq=chinatown+big+sleep+steiner&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji9-uO04LOAhWDWSYKHW4dC5EQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=chinatown big sleep steiner&f=false

 

My contention was that Chinatown started the neo-noir scoring trend by featuring a bluesy main title/motif that served as a melodic identification for the film and the characters that continued in Farewell, My Lovely, Taxi Driver, Body Heat, etc.

[Jay 37,352]

Gotta love when a new user starts a thread and it hits 3 pages in 2 days. Excellent, excellent

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This is the JWFan equivalent of a presidential debate though.  What in blazes is actually being said?!

[A24 4,331]

In the '80s, pop songs were mainly used for John Hughes kind of movies. However, everything epic and adventurous had a Williams sound. Williams' reign didn't end a few years after Star Wars. 

 

 

Cheers

[Thor 7,495]

44 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

2001: A Space Odyssey re-ignited that 10 years earlier though.

 

2001 is a completely different beast altogether. If anything, that was the classical equivalent of the pop/needledrop scores that appeared around the same time. It had nothing to do with a re-ignation of the classical Hollywood film music sound.

 

40 minutes ago, mxncr12 said:

 

Don't know if you saw my earlier post but it featured a passage illustrated the clear divergences throughout the scores to The Big Sleep and Chinatown.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1SKfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&dq=chinatown+big+sleep+steiner&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji9-uO04LOAhWDWSYKHW4dC5EQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=chinatown big sleep steiner&f=false

 

My contention was that Chinatown started the neo-noir scoring trend by featuring a bluesy main title/motif that served as a melodic identification for the film and the characters that continued in Farewell, My Lovely, Taxi Driver, Body Heat, etc.

 

No, I saw your post earlier. There is nothing in the passage there that disproves my point. I also disagree with the author in that THE BIG SLEEP was only down to orchestral conventions. There are clearly passages that evoke jazzy chord structures, even if they are not as overt as other film noir scores at the time (like LAURA).

 

CHINATOWN seems to be a natural progression of the noir scores that came before (part in sound, but more in sentiment), the only difference being that it was leaner in its quantity of music. I don't really see it paving way; or in any way influencing the other scores you mention; at most it was part of a certain expression that was nurtured at the time. A lot of the Hollywood scores were more inspired by what was happening in the French New Wave.

[Quintus 5,399]

34 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

This is the JWFan equivalent of a presidential debate though.  What in blazes is actually being said?!

 

Sorry. Let's all go back to talking about, erm, not very much. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That's what's going on here anyway....

[Quintus 5,399]

Nah, I don't think that's fair on the discussion tbh. I've enjoyed reading Thor and pub's debate, honestly. Something I would normally scroll past. 

 

Just admit it: you're really just irritated that people are conversing about something new in a thread which you didn't create...

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Nah, and I don't actually begrudge these folks their conversation.  It's just a bit too circuitous and hollow for me.  Oh well!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He just wants us to admit Zimmer is the most influential film composer of all time!

 

(which he might be, but it's a hard thing to admit too)

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I really just want you and Quintus to get into a spat because of your avatars.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The problem with England is that it's full of English!

[mxncr12 4]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

No, I saw your post earlier. There is nothing in the passage there that disproves my point. I also disagree with the author in that THE BIG SLEEP was only down to orchestral conventions. There are clearly passages that evoke jazzy chord structures, even if they are not as overt as other film noir scores at the time (like LAURA).

 

CHINATOWN seems to be a natural progression of the noir scores that came before (part in sound, but more in sentiment), the only difference being that it was leaner in its quantity of music. I don't really see it paving way; or in any way influencing the other scores you mention; at most it was part of a certain expression that was nurtured at the time. A lot of the Hollywood scores were more inspired by what was happening in the French New Wave.

Then there is a difference in opinion as I'm not the only endorser of the aforementioned contention about Chinatown, but you still didn't disprove my point, although your assertion is kind of like saying Star Wars continues the natural progression of the scores from the Golden Age of Hollywood (part in sound, part in sentiment), and thus not  in any way influencing other scores.   The music from Big Sleep didn't do anything unconventional compared with other films/films noir of the 1940s.  

 

I mean, The great Pink Panther score has passages that feature jazz chord structures but I'm not sure it was much of an influence on Chinatown or if The Big Sleep was an influence on The Pink Panther.

 

 The Big Sleep contains a conventional symphonic orchestral main title from its era.

 

While Body Heat continues the neo-noir scoring trend that utilizes a bluesey main title/motif as to evoke the film and its characters.

 

How would you compare the two opening titles?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Pink Panther? Oh dear....

[mxncr12 4]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The Pink Panther? Oh dear....

A better example would probably be a jazzy film score like Touch of Evil, which is from the film noir genre.

[Thor 7,495]

1 hour ago, mxncr12 said:

Then there is a difference in opinion as I'm not the only endorser of the aforementioned contention about Chinatown

 

Maybe not, but if it had had any influence beyond being a good score, it would have been a reference point in established literature on film music history. It is not. What is it, then? It's a largely mono-thematic affair, applied sparingly and in a pretty straightforward jazz style. It's imbued with dark romance and a little bit of grit. As such, it's a natural continuation of previous jazz scores -- both within and outside noir. It's also part of a series of scores at the same time that employed a similar approach. Neither more nor less. It doesn't have much of a defining trademark or other inherent properties beyond that which you can trace in subsequent films or trends.

 

I'm well aware that many Goldsmith fans want one of his scores to have the same degree of influence that some of the established cornerstones have, but history simply doesn't allow it. He was never really about that. He was unique. He was original (in his heyday). He was often at the cutting edge of what was happening. And he had bits and pieces of influence, mostly within his general style. But he never had that one influential score. Most of these contentions stem from what I call the "Goldsmith Inferiority Complex", and while this doesn't necessarily apply to you, it's something that I've seen for many years -- especially over at a certain other forum.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

8 hours ago, mxncr12 said:

I meant a film noir.

 

I know, but you implied that Chinatown started the association of neo-noir with symphonic jazz, but The Detective was 6 years prior. And even then, you have earlier scores like Bernstein's The Man with the Golden Arm, Ellington's Anatomy of a Murder, and TV themes like Steiner's Perry Mason and Mancini's Peter Gunn. Plus, you can't discount the jazz-crime connection in Raksin's The Big Combo, Mancini's Touch of Evil and so on. By 1974 that connection's pretty solidified, but what I think Goldsmith did with Chinatown (along with Polanski, Towne etc.) is bring that earlier form and aesthetic to the realm of New Hollywood.

[Thor 7,495]

If CHINATOWN is anything, it's a combination of earlier film noir scores (from the 40s onwards), non-film noir jazz scores from the 50s (and beyond) and a twist of French New Wave -- applied to a Hollywood setting.