Jay 45,771 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 19 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: lr Bilbo at 02:44 (maybe referring to one of the concert suites?) There were many versions of lr Bilbo written, but the "lr Bilbo 208 831" cue shown in the video is the one that was recorded by an orchestra and released on the OST album as "A Very Respectable Hobbit" "Dreaming of Bag End" is another lr Bilbo
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 17 minutes ago, Jay said: There were many versions of lr Bilbo written, but the "lr Bilbo 208 831" cue shown in the video is the one that was recorded by an orchestra and released on the OST album as "A Very Respectable Hobbit" "Dreaming of Bag End" is another lr Bilbo I would assume it was part of the theme demo Shore wrote. (Parts of which showed up in the Appendices I believe demonstrating DOS themes)
Chen G. 6,009 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 "Dreaming of Bag End" (like "Erebor" and "The Dwarf Lords") feels like an orchestrated version of Howard’s theme presentation. Each has, essentially, a single subject. "A Very Respectable Hobbit" is different due to the multitude of the subjects. It must have been intended as an album piece. As a sidebar, I love the largesse of having these pieces. It's like in the good ol' days when Williams would record a suite just for the album: not repurposes film cues or pieces intended for the end credits. It was a first for Howard in these films.
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 I wonder how many theme suites were composed, how many of those were recorded, and how many remain unreleased. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was one Beorn suite we know Shore wrote that did not get released on the albums (so it was possibly not recorded). The Ironfoot track on the The Battle Of The Five Armies album also seems to combine recordings of lots of short theme suites into one long track, though I wonder if each of those individual pieces were actually longer and shortened for the album presentation.
Chen G. 6,009 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 Howard's mockups of his theme don't run very long: roughly 90 seconds, which is not far off from the length of the monothematic suites. He concieves of his themes as the raw materials for the composition rather than as "songs." So, given the nature of the material, there's really no use in giving a piece like "Erebor" the four-minute Williams-style treatment: his only way to create a more substantial piece for the album is to bring multiple (related) ideas together and play them "off" of each other as it were. Hence "A Very Respectable Hobbit" or "Ironfoot" (or "I Roderyn"). *paging the Siegfried Idyll*
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 Yes, but A Very Respectable Hobbit does not feel like different pieces stitched together. It feels like a single piece with a nice flow. Ironfoot, on the other hand (ha!), clearly feels like 4 or 5 different pieces strung together but with no flow between the various pieces. First, you have the first two minutes dedicated to Dain's theme (with a clear beginning, middle and especially end) which could very well have been its own track, but then we continue on with what seems to clearly be a separate recording of different material (the most mysterious of all, probably, with it sounding like a mix of Bard material and Dwarvish material). This then segues not quite abruptly, but not quite flawlessly either, into what was probably a separate recording of the Bard The Dragonslayer music, which then ends... before we get what was probably a separate recording of different music (another rather mysterious bit, which to me always sounded similar to the Radagast's sledge music) which then ends... before we get a separate recording of the Laketown theme in heroic mode, which then ends... before we move to what was probably a separate recording of the Bard/Laketown material. Basically, each theme plays, ends with a fade out, before another theme plays. I suppose you could say the same about A Very Respectable Hobbit, but at least this one definitely feels like it is all just one recording of a single piece. By the way, for those wondering about the Radagast's sledge music similarity I mentioned: 04:01 in the video below: 06:26 in the video below:
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 Nice. I'll update the main post later with new info and slates. That said... 1 hour ago, BloodBoal said: This picture from the The Desolation Of Smaug booklet presents mr172, which according to this post by Jim Ware, covers everything from Feast Of Starlight all the way up to the end of The Forest River: Right below the cue number mr172 and the movie's title, we see handwritten "Barrels out of bound". Isn't this the cue name? Since this appears to be Shore's handwritten score, maybe he gave the cue names when writing them, then, for some reason, someone removed them during recording? Perhaps as a means of preventing spoilers from escaping? I've seen stories about studios going to ridiculous lengths to prevent spoilers during the recording of the score, like not allowing musicians to see what is happening for the cue they are recording, so it wouldn't be surprising. This also happened in the BOTFA cue, which was titled by Shore "The Destruction of Laketown". Also, it's cool that these pictures show the date these cues were written. The BOTFA cue was written in April 2014, way before the movie's release, so maybe that's why it didn't get a number at that point. For the DOS cue, some interesting numbers at the upper left... r3 = reel 3? I think so! Not sure what 828 means (August 28th? That would be 11 days before the date on the right, September 8th). 3:11:54:14 might be how long the cue is (3 minutes, 11 seconds, 54 milliseconds, 14 microseconds? ) 1 hour ago, BloodBoal said: Finally, I remember Jim Ware (and possibly Doug as well) shared quite a few slate numbers on his X (ex-Twitter) account throughout the years, though you need an account to be able to browse through his older posts. I literally deleted my Twitter account yesterday
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 3 hours ago, Edmilson said: Nice. I'll update the main post later with new info and slates. That said... Right below the cue number mr172 and the movie's title, we see handwritten "Barrels out of bound". Isn't this the cue name? Since this appears to be Shore's handwritten score, maybe he gave the cue names when writing them, then, for some reason, someone removed them during recording? Perhaps as a means of preventing spoilers from escaping? I've seen stories about studios going to ridiculous lengths to prevent spoilers during the recording of the score, like not allowing musicians to see what is happening for the cue they are recording, so it wouldn't be surprising. This also happened in the BOTFA cue, which was titled by Shore "The Destruction of Laketown". Also, it's cool that these pictures show the date these cues were written. The BOTFA cue was written in April 2014, way before the movie's release, so maybe that's why it didn't get a number at that point. For the DOS cue, some interesting numbers at the upper left... r3 = reel 3? I think so! Not sure what 828 means (August 28th? That would be 11 days before the date on the right, September 8th). 3:11:54:14 might be how long the cue is (3 minutes, 11 seconds, 54 milliseconds, 14 microseconds? ) I literally deleted my Twitter account yesterday Or they 4 hours ago, BloodBoal said: I wonder how many theme suites were composed. From what I have heard, it was one big one. And the stuff we have on the albums are pieces of the big suite. 3 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Yes, but A Very Respectable Hobbit does not feel like different pieces stitched together. It feels like a single piece with a nice flow. Ironfoot, on the other hand (ha!), clearly feels like 4 or 5 different pieces strung together but with no flow between the various pieces. First, you have the first two minutes dedicated to Dain's theme (with a clear beginning, middle and especially end) which could very well have been its own track, but then we continue on with what seems to clearly be a separate recording of different material (the most mysterious of all, probably, with it sounding like a mix of Bard material and Dwarvish material). This then segues not quite abruptly, but not quite flawlessly either, into what was probably a separate recording of the Bard The Dragonslayer music, which then ends... before we get what was probably a separate recording of different music (another rather mysterious bit, which to me always sounded similar to the Radagast's sledge music) which then ends... before we get a separate recording of the Laketown theme in heroic mode, which then ends... before we move to what was probably a separate recording of the Bard/Laketown material. Basically, each theme plays, ends with a fade out, before another theme plays. I suppose you could say the same about A Very Respectable Hobbit, but at least this one definitely feels like it is all just one recording of a single piece. By the way, for those wondering about the Radagast's sledge music similarity I mentioned: 04:01 in the video below: 06:26 in the video below: Isn't there a bit like this in Forest River, or when Bard is running to get the use the Windlance in DOS? 4 hours ago, Chen G. said: "A Very Respectable Hobbit" is different due to the multitude of the subjects. It must have been intended as an album piece. Or maybe intended to demonstrate how the material could play off each other in the score and interact with the Shire theme.
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Okay guys, corrections and new info added to my post: I'd appreciate more cue names and numbers from TTT, ROTK and BOTFA though 5 hours ago, BloodBoal said: If I remember correctly, the The Hobbit compositions only have slate numbers, and no titles as such. I believe it was confirmed by Jim Ware, but it is also confirmed by the sheet music we can see in some of the production diaries (these feature quite a bit of slate numbers, by the way). For example, at 00:57 in this video, you can clearly see that lr1 has no title. The titles that are used in posts featuring the compositions' slate numbers refer exclusively to the original albums' track titles, simply as a way to explain easily what music the cue corresponds to. Including those titles in your list may be a bit misleading because people may think the cue corresponds exactly to the track with the same title, even though it might not (for example, lr26 Old Friends may make it feel like lr26 corresponds to the album track Old Friends, even though that one may contain more than just one cue). Each of the booklets of the original album releases feature a page of sheet music with a pencil-written title, but I believe this was added as a way to "illustrate" what scene the specific page underscores. Anyway, to help you with your list: This promotional video features quite a few slate numbers: lr1 at 00:57 lr125c at 01:41 lr50 at 02:03 lr56c at 02:42 lr Bilbo at 02:44 (maybe referring to one of the concert suites?) lr90 at 02:49 lr56c at 02:51 lr122 at 04:22 lr111g at 04:37 lr125a at 05:00 lr133 at 07:07 lr26, lr56, lr81 and lr111a at 07:12 In this post, Jim Ware mentions lr131 (which corresponds to the tail end of Brass Buttons, no timestamps specified) and lr133 (apparently corresponding to the opening section of Out Of The Frying-Pan, along with some unreleased material prior to that). This picture from the An Unexpected Journey album booklet presents lr56b, which, based on what is shown on screen, seems to correspond to the opening section of Radagast The Brown (along with the preceding unused "rain" music heard in one of the production diaries): This picture from the The Desolation Of Smaug booklet presents mr172, which according to this post by Jim Ware, covers everything from Feast Of Starlight all the way up to the end of The Forest River: This post by FunnyML features a few more slate numbers, referring to this video: Faleel posted some slate numbers in this post (note: the numbers after the slate numbers correspond to the dates of composition and orchestration, as per Jim's post here). The The Desolation Of Smaug music documentary (on the Extended Edition release) most likely features quite a lot of slate numbers as well. Other production diaries may feature a few more as well. The The Battle Of The Five Armies album booklet features a cue with only br as its slate number, though I suppose they forgot to type the actual number... Finally, I remember Jim Ware (and possibly Doug as well) shared quite a few slate numbers on his X (ex-Twitter) account throughout the years, though you need an account to be able to browse through his older posts. Just re-read your post again, this time with more calm and attention (lol), and I saw that you already mentioned stuff that I talked about in my post above about the supposed cue names that appear in the booklet pics being not their "real names" (if they even have those) but instead something that was added for the booklet to help people identify the music. Now, personally, I THINK my theory may still be right - these were the cue names Shore wrote, then they removed them for recording. But I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong. Also saw that Jim mentions the 3:11:54:14 numbering as the exact timestamp where the cue begins, even I think it's still a bit high. This scene happens early in DOS, so how come it only comes up at the 3 hours 11 minutes mark? I guess editing wasn't finished by that point and the movie was still in a brute state... On 05/02/2026 at 3:52 PM, VenomVeVenom said: From my score reduction: Never understood that 19c. Theoretically, this means 19c = third cue from reel 19. But, like, reel 19?!? This is way too high, especially because The Great River is from reel 8, so the movie may have only 9 or 10 reels at most in its theatrical version.
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 54 minutes ago, Edmilson said: Okay guys, corrections and new info added to my post: I'd appreciate more cue names and numbers from TTT, ROTK and BOTFA though Just re-read your post again, this time with more calm and attention (lol), and I saw that you already mentioned stuff that I talked about in my post above about the supposed cue names that appear in the booklet pics being not their "real names" (if they even have those) but instead something that was added for the booklet to help people identify the music. Now, personally, I THINK my theory may still be right - these were the cue names Shore wrote, then they removed them for recording. But I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong. Also saw that Jim mentions the 3:11:54:14 numbering as the exact timestamp where the cue begins, even I think it's still a bit high. This scene happens early in DOS, so how come it only comes up at the 3 hours 11 minutes mark? I guess editing wasn't finished by that point and the movie was still in a brute state... Theoretically, this means 19c = third cue from reel 19. But, like, reel 19?!? This is way too high, especially because The Great River is from reel 8, so the movie may have only 9 or 10 reels at most in its theatrical version. Also remember the Moria scenes was the first thing recorded. And included in the Cannes Reel footage.
enderdrag64 1,796 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 12 hours ago, Edmilson said: All right, here's every LOTR/Hobbit cue name and number we know so far. If there's more, let me know and I'll add to this post. The Lord of the Rings Trilogy Fellowship of the Ring 1G Concerning Hobbits 4A A Knife in the Dark 7N Boromir 7Q The Mirror of Galadriel 8G The Great River Deciphering key: The number represents the reel and the letter represents the part. Eg.: 4A means the first cue from reel 4 (A is the first letter in the alphabet), 8G means the seventh cue from reel 8 (G is the seventh letter in the alphabet), though some cues might be divided in parts 1, 2, etc. Note: Most, if not all, the cue names from Fellowship have been known thanks to an old AITC report, GEMA database, and others, but not all the slate numbers. Additionally, for some cues we know the number used during the writing process (m135 The Great River, m140 The Breaking of the Fellowship, etc). See @enderdrag64's spreadsheet here for all the known information on cue names and numbers from FOTR. The Two Towers 9A Samwise the Brave Deciphering key: Same as Fellowship. Numbers represent the reel and letters represent the part. Return of the King 602 The Grace of Undómiel/Minas Tirith 926 The End of All Things Deciphering key: The numbers are the date where these cues were written. Cue 602 means it was written on June 2nd, 2003; cue 926 means it was written on September 26th, 2003. The Hobbit Trilogy Note: For The Hobbit, the names after the numbers may not be the cues's real names, if they even have names. Instead, they point to the album track that this cue corresponds to, in total or partially. An Unexpected Journey lr1 My Dear Frodo lr26 Old Friends lr50 lr56B Radagast the Brown (opening) lr56C lr81 lr88 Warg Scouts lr90 lr111G lr122 lr125A lr131 Brass Buttons (finale) lr133 Beginning of Out of the Frying Pan lr135 A Good Omen lr Bilbo (concert suite) Deciphering key: LR stands for "Little Rivers", a codename for the first movie in the trilogy. Cues are not split in reels because of messy editing process, so their numbering corresponds to the # of the scene where the cue started playing. Some cues might be divided into parts represented by letters, so, for example, cue LR56c is the third part (C is the third letter in the alphabet) of the cue from An Unexpected Journey that begins at scene #56. The Desolation of Smaug mr132A The Quest of Erebor mr132B The Quest of Erebor (2nd part?) mr143A mr153C mr162 612 818 (composed June 12, 2013; orchestrated August 8th, 2013) mr168A "Thranduil scene" mr172 718 816 Barrels Out of Bond, begins with "Feast Of Starlight" and goes until the end of "The Forest River" (composed July 18, 2013; orchestrated August 16th, 2013; a new version of the cue may have been written on September 8th, 2013 according to booklet pic) mr172B PT2 Barrels Out of Bond (second part, the cue was probably split for recording) mr190 729 817 (composed July 29th, 2013; orchestrated August 17th, 2013) mr205 716 821 (composed July 16th, 2013; orchestrated August 21st, 2013) mr221 723 818 (composed July 23th, 2013; orchestrated August 18th, 2013) mr222 mr251 725 821 (composed July 25th, 2013; orchestrated August 21st, 2013) mr251D mr253 mr255 mr272A+B My Armor Is Iron mr272B 1003 1005 insert 165-171 My Armor is Iron, Part 2, insert replacing bars 165 to 171 of the original mr272B (composed October 3rd, 2013; orchestrated October 5th, 2013) Deciphering key: MR stands for "Middle Rivers", a codename for the second movie in the trilogy. Cues are not split in reels because of messy editing process, so their numbering corresponds to the # of the scene where the cue started playing, counting from wherever AUJ's stopped. Some cues might be divided in parts represented by letters. The Battle of the Five Armies br? The Destruction of Laketown (composed April 9th, 2014) Deciphering key: BR stands for "Big Rivers", a codename for the third movie in the trilogy. Cues are not split in reels because of messy editing process, so their numbering corresponds to the # of the scene where the cue started playing, counting from wherever DOS's stopped. Some cues might be divided in parts represented by letters. Worth noting that there are two competing FOTR cue lists There's the AITC/GEMA list and then there's a different cue list Jay linked to years ago from some other soundtrack forum that has different titles and only covers part 2 of Fellowship but breaks out the EE recordings and inserts I've never been able to properly reconcile the two lists In the case of The Hobbit, if what you say is true that the original cues never had titles, I guess that means the GEMA titles are music editor titles?
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 3 hours ago, The Score Cleaner said: Also remember the Moria scenes was the first thing recorded. And included in the Cannes Reel footage. Hmm, I think you're right. The fact that Shore recorded the Moria scenes early, back in April 2001, for them to be shown at Cannes, would explain the weird reel number, since they hadn't finished editing by that point. I wonder if they "corrected" the reel numbers for the Moria cues later to conform with the others, or if they left like Williams' TLJ cues for the Fathiers sequence that retained that reel 0 number. 33 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said: There's the AITC/GEMA list and then there's a different cue list Jay linked to years ago from some other soundtrack forum that has different titles and only covers part 2 of Fellowship but breaks out the EE recordings and inserts Maybe it's fan made? But if not, it would be super helpful to have all of them in this format, with the EE recordings, for all three movies. 33 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said: In the case of The Hobbit, if what you say is true that the original cues never had titles, I guess that means the GEMA titles are music editor titles? It wasn't me who said it but actually @BloodBoal, quoting @Jim Ware and the production diaries that shown the recording sessions. I still don't know if these Hobbit cues didn't have titles from the beginning, or if they had but were removed for recording to avoid spoilers or something. By the way, could you share the GEMA titles, please?
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 15 hours ago, Edmilson said: Since this appears to be Shore's handwritten score, maybe he gave the cue names when writing them, then, for some reason, someone removed them during recording? Perhaps as a means of preventing spoilers from escaping? I've seen stories about studios going to ridiculous lengths to prevent spoilers during the recording of the score, like not allowing musicians to see what is happening for the cue they are recording, so it wouldn't be surprising. That is possible, yes. You could be right. As I said, I'm just going from memory, and I may be misremembering. If you are right, though, then I suppose that, unless the handwritten sheets leak, we will never get the The Hobbit cue titles (apart from the two found in the album booklets). 11 hours ago, The Score Cleaner said: From what I have heard, it was one big one. And the stuff we have on the albums are pieces of the big suite. That would not surprise me. And if it is true, then I would be very much interested in hearing the complete unedited composition. 11 hours ago, The Score Cleaner said: Isn't there a bit like this in Forest River, or when Bard is running to get the use the Windlance in DOS? I remember you mentioning that, and yes, there is a similarity with that bit as well, though I believe the Radagast music sounds more similar to the Ironfoot section. As for The Forest River, are you referring to the unreleased music at the beginning of this video? 10 hours ago, Edmilson said: Also saw that Jim mentions the 3:11:54:14 numbering as the exact timestamp where the cue begins, even I think it's still a bit high. This scene happens early in DOS, so how come it only comes up at the 3 hours 11 minutes mark? I guess editing wasn't finished by that point and the movie was still in a brute state... Maybe the timestamp is from the original two-film cut, when that sequence was still in Film 1? That would make sense, though, then, the cue would not have mr172 as its slate number. It is all a bit confusing, really. 7 hours ago, enderdrag64 said: In the case of The Hobbit, if what you say is true that the original cues never had titles, I guess that means the GEMA titles are music editor titles? If GEMA is like ASCAP, then, as Jay once explained, they need to have titles for every single bit of music heard in the film, even if it is all part of a single cue/composition. Let's take for example mr172 (which, as previously explained, covers everything from Feast Of Startlight up to the end of The Forest River): it has a lot of dialed out bits in the film, so you hear music, then it stops, then you hear some more music, then it stops, etc. (that whole chase sequence is awful, in that regard) and they need to have a title for every bit of music separated by silence for their database, even though it is actually all part of a single composition. So, as you suggested, it is possible the titles were made up by someone else than Shore. 10 hours ago, Edmilson said: I'd appreciate more cue names and numbers from TTT, ROTK and BOTFA though Yo missed a few in this very thread. See here for example. On 21/05/2011 at 1:49 AM, The Score Cleaner said: I have just finished combing Doug's book for every scrap of cue names and slate numbers, and here is the result of my work: ROTK: The Grace of Undómiel/Minas Tirith (602) The End of All Things (926) TTT: Samwise The Brave (9a) FOTR: The Shire [m4] Many Meetings (m55) Cave Troll/Mithril Vest/The Second Hall (m94, m95, m95) Khazad-Dum (m96) The Fighting Uruk-Hai/The River Anduin (m120) One The Return Of The King slate number can be found here: On 29/09/2015 at 2:28 PM, Jim Ware said: I don't actually have a complete list of FOTR slates but may be able to fill in a few gaps in some areas if there is any interest (7Q is the first part of The Mirror of Galadriel, fact fans). The 'cue' numbering was introduced purely to break down the score for recording purposes and make the sheer quantity of music manageable; compositionally the score consists of lengthy overarching pieces. The concept of breaking these pieces into 'cues' disappeared almost entirely for ROTK. To give an example, 511 The Palantir covers everything from the Legolas/Aragorn night-time Edoras scene through to Gandalf leaving with Pippin. Edmilson 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Let's not forget quite a few of those titles are just book chapter titles.
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Indeed. A few more slate numbers with dates, @Edmilson: On 20/03/2015 at 4:03 PM, Jay said: Oooh, I know what that means! mr190d is the cue for them crossing the lake (beginning of "Protector of the Common Folk") mr190e is the cue for the fish being added to the barrels, and then the whole "Toll Gate" scene (rest of "Protector of the Common Folk" mr205 is "Thrice Welcome", and it looks like Doug is saying only the first 31 bars are used before it switches to the EE cue mre206, which would be the extended Master/Alfrid discussion, and the extended "World of Men" chase, etc. Looks like he's saying bars 74-77 are dropped from the final cut of the EE, and at bar 153 it re-joins the original cue (the gang entering Bard's house) Neat! ... Does this mean they're working on CRs? "... Does this mean they're working on CRs?" 11 years ago... Ha! Edmilson 1
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 9 hours ago, BloodBoal said: That is possible, yes. You could be right. As I said, I'm just going from memory, and I may be misremembering. If you are right, though, then I suppose that, unless the handwritten sheets leak, we will never get the The Hobbit cue titles (apart from the two found in the album booklets). 9 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Maybe the timestamp is from the original two-film cut, when that sequence was still in Film 1? That would make sense, though, then, the cue would not have mr172 as its slate number. It is all a bit confusing, really. Yeah. I think I remember a post from Jay where he says Shore wrote the score (though not all of it) for what used to be Film 1 (An Unexpected Journey and the first half of what eventually became Desolation of Smaug) up to scene 165 or something like that, finishing with this sequence of the Barrels out of Bond. Then the movies were split and some cues already written for what was once Film 1 were moved to Film 2 (and, I guess, revised before recording). If so, it would make sense that, in a rough, non-finalized version of Film 1 of the 2 part series, this sequence would begin at the 3 hour 11 minutes mark. As for the numbering, I guess it changed once the split happened, because, of course, they had to add more scenes for DOS to be its own movie. It only shows these numbers weren't fixed, set-in-stone things during production 9 hours ago, BloodBoal said: If GEMA is like ASCAP, then, as Jay once explained, they need to have titles for every single bit of music heard in the film, even if it is all part of a single cue/composition. Let's take for example mr172 (which, as previously explained, covers everything from Feast Of Startlight up to the end of The Forest River): it has a lot of dialed out bits in the film, so you hear music, then it stops, then you hear some more music, then it stops, etc. (that whole chase sequence is awful, in that regard) and they need to have a title for every bit of music separated by silence for their database, even though it is actually all part of a single composition. So, as you suggested, it is possible the titles were made up by someone else than Shore. 9 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Yo missed a few in this very thread. See here for example. On 20/05/2011 at 8:49 PM, The Score Cleaner said: I have just finished combing Doug's book for every scrap of cue names and slate numbers, and here is the result of my work: ROTK: The Grace of Undómiel/Minas Tirith (602) The End of All Things (926) TTT: Samwise The Brave (9a) FOTR: The Shire [m4] Many Meetings (m55) Cave Troll/Mithril Vest/The Second Hall (m94, m95, m95) Khazad-Dum (m96) The Fighting Uruk-Hai/The River Anduin (m120) One The Return Of The King slate number can be found here: Thanks! Will add those later, as well as Dwarrowdelf with the "New Zealand recording for Cannes" disclaimer. 3 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Indeed. A few more slate numbers with dates, @Edmilson: Awesome. Will also add those later as well. 3 hours ago, The Score Cleaner said: Let's not forget quite a few of those titles are just book chapter titles. I honestly think it's cool that some cue names are book chapters, instead of something more generic ("The Council Scene", "Aragorn Battles the Orcs", "Sam and Gollum Argue")
Chen G. 6,009 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 31 minutes ago, Edmilson said: Then the movies were split and some cues already written for what was once Film 1 were moved to Film 2 (and, I guess, revised before recording) And, ontop of that, I think some scene stayed in film one for a while after the split before getting offloaded to film two. I suspect that was the case with the High Fells. The entire Dol Guldur storyline was basically pushed aft, and much shortened, which was the right choice. 31 minutes ago, Edmilson said: they had to add more scenes for DOS to be its own movie. Desolation of Smaug was mostly createe editorially. The only new scenes are the beginning and ending: Bree and the Battle of the Forges. Most of the "new" scenes shot in the pickups ended up in The Battle of the Five Armies. Edmilson 1
Jay 45,771 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 45 minutes ago, Edmilson said: I think I remember a post from Jay where he says Shore wrote the score (though not all of it) for what used to be Film 1 (An Unexpected Journey and the first half of what eventually became Desolation of Smaug) up to scene 165 or something like that, finishing with this sequence of the Barrels out of Bond. Then the movies were split and some cues already written for what was once Film 1 were moved to Film 2 (and, I guess, revised before recording). If so, it would make sense that, in a rough, non-finalized version of Film 1 of the 2 part series, this sequence would begin at the 3 hour 11 minutes mark. As for the numbering, I guess it changed once the split happened, because, of course, they had to add more scenes for DOS to be its own movie. It only shows these numbers weren't fixed, set-in-stone things during production On 29/12/2024 at 6:44 PM, Jay said: To be more specific, the code names for the two films were "Little Rivers" and "Big Rivers", so the cues he began writing in 2011 were all "LR ___" cues, where the blank was the scene number that the cue would start during (his cues often covered many, many scenes!) So LR1 is "My Dear Frodo", LR26 is "Old Friends", etc. He wrote at least up to LR162, which would have covered the company captured by the Woodland elves, Gandalf exploring Dol Guldur, and Bilbo freeing the company into the river. Though he hadn't written absolutely every cue before the film was split. So then the new Film 1 only went up to LR135 ("A Good Omen"), and he no reason to work on any cues after that scene until 2013. An Unexpected Journey's final score is a combination of music already recorded for the 2-film cut, and new cues recorded for the 3-film cut (some one which could have been the same as they would have been in the 2-film cut anyway). Moving on, since a new code name was needed for the new second film, they went with Middle Rivers, so DOS's cues run from MR132 ("The Quest of Erebor") through MR272 ("My Armor Is Iron"). Then BOFA's cues are BR ___ for Big Rivers. Incidentally, the way I figured out that the cue numbers were the scene number was the "The Epic of Scene 88" featurette on the AUJ blu ray. It's about the warg chase, which is scored by cue LR88 ("Warg Scouts") Edmilson 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Edmilson said: Yeah. I think I remember a post from Jay where he says Shore wrote the score (though not all of it) for what used to be Film 1 (An Unexpected Journey and the first half of what eventually became Desolation of Smaug) up to scene 165 or something like that, finishing with this sequence of the Barrels out of Bond. Then the movies were split and some cues already written for what was once Film 1 were moved to Film 2 (and, I guess, revised before recording). If so, it would make sense that, in a rough, non-finalized version of Film 1 of the 2 part series, this sequence would begin at the 3 hour 11 minutes mark. As for the numbering, I guess it changed once the split happened, because, of course, they had to add more scenes for DOS to be its own movie. It only shows these numbers weren't fixed, set-in-stone things during production Thanks! Will add those later, as well as Dwarrowdelf with the "New Zealand recording for Cannes" disclaimer. Awesome. Will also add those later as well. I honestly think it's cool that some cue names are book chapters, instead of something more generic ("The Council Scene", "Aragorn Battles the Orcs", "Sam and Gollum Argue") Remember that (an early version of) Breaking of the Fellowship was also recorded in NZ, but did not appear in the Cannes reel. Edmilson 1
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Chen G. said: And, ontop of that, I think some scene stayed in film one for a while after the split before getting offloaded to film two. I suspect that was the case with the High Fells. You don't have to suspect. It was. The An Unexpected Journey bonus track The Edge Of The Wild scored the original cut of the scene, which started with the Company leaving Rivendell and then transitioned to Gandalf arriving at the High Fells and meeting Radagast there (the track ends with the music for the bird/Radagast's arrival).
Chen G. 6,009 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 12 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: The An Unexpected Journey bonus track The Edge Of The Wild scored the original cut of the scene Yes, I know. But I've heard conflicting reports as to whether that was scored at a point where Howard still had the two-parter edit to look at. I'm inclined to think no, since the sequence is probably a little too special effects-dependent for Howard to have scored it so early.
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Well, when the scene was shown in a preview event for DOS, it was already cut down from what was scored in that sequence.
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Was it? Back when I did my restore videos, I remember having to use that preview video for The Edge Of The Wild and it don't think there was any missing footage. Everything synced perfectly, if I am not mistaken. The scene as seen in the final cut of The Desolation Of Smaug was edited down, however, yes (though I believe the The High Fells track features material that seems to be for deleted footage that was not restored in the Extended Edition, but that would have been for the discussion between Gandalf and Radagast, and not before Radagast's arrival).
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: Was it? Back when I did my restore videos, I remember having to use that preview video for The Edge Of The Wild and it don't think there was any missing footage. Everything synced perfectly, if I am not mistaken. The scene as seen in the final cut of The Desolation Of Smaug was edited down, however, yes (though I believe the The High Fells track features material that seems to be for deleted footage that was not restored in the Extended Edition, but that would have been for the discussion between Gandalf and Radagast, and not before Radagast's arrival). I swear there were some blank sections, but it's been a while since I watched those videos (mostly because they are terribly outdated.... )
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 5 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: (mostly because they are terribly outdated.... ) You're quite right. They definitely need a major update. A complete release of the scores would be the perfect opportunity for that.
enderdrag64 1,796 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 16 hours ago, Edmilson said: By the way, could you share the GEMA titles, please? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dil-34MQ_hfPAT-Rv0Daad02QwqHVNwejUp5byTG98I/edit?usp=drivesdk Edmilson 1
Jim Ware 638 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 On 7/2/2026 at 5:54 AM, The Score Cleaner said: I wonder if the Out of the Frying Pan album track has a true clean opening, or if they just snipped out the music prior to it. @BloodBoal @Jim Ware The album edit cuts the first 46 bars. 6 hours ago, Chen G. said: Yes, I know. But I've heard conflicting reports as to whether that was scored at a point where Howard still had the two-parter edit to look at. I'm inclined to think no, since the sequence is probably a little too special effects-dependent for Howard to have scored it so early. This composition (lr111b) was recorded on September 1st 2012, conformed to a version of reel 6a dated August 30th 2012.
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 @Jim Ware In the scene when Radagast dispels the WK, there is a section seemingly taken from 111b, but there is an extra Descending Thirds statement, is that additional material cut from the Edge of the Wild album track? Or a revision of The Hill of Sorcery? 10 minutes ago, Jim Ware said: The album edit cuts the first 46 bars. This composition (lr111b) was recorded on September 1st 2012, conformed to a version of reel 6a dated August 30th 2012.
Jim Ware 638 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 There is some unused descending thirds stuff in lr111b (cut from the album) so it’s probably from that. I’m on a plane for the next nine hours, so feel free to ask any questions. 20 hours ago, enderdrag64 said: In the case of The Hobbit, if what you say is true that the original cues never had titles, I guess that means the GEMA titles are music editor titles? With the exception of theme suites and some inserts, none of Shore’s Hobbit sketches or scores have titles. The Barrels Out of Bond title was added to the sketch retrospectively for the album pack-in (Shore added some additional detail to the sketch too). As discussed earlier, every score indicates the reel, the picture version and start time. This makes the composition numbering much less confusing than The Return of the King! Edmilson and enderdrag64 1 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Jim Ware said: I’m on a plane for the next nine hours, so feel free to ask any questions. Okay @Jim Ware here we go! 1): What is the bit around 0:49-1:36 from 2): The ending of the film version of A Good Omen has material similar to sections found in Axe or Sword? but with extra strings and a longer statement of the Erebor/Thorin themes, was this a revision for A Good Omen, or material tracked from an alternate version of AoS? 3): There is extra material in A Thunder-Battle for the company finding the cave (high string harmonics, and then a statement of typical Shore rising tetrachord), which also shows up in the Riddles in the Dark sequence, which is the intended placement? 4): Is any part of the film version of Out of the Frying Pan tracked? (Perhaps the bits that sound like Brass Buttons or My Dear Frodo?) or is it all revisions? 5): Was The Blate Gate scene in Two Towers moved up earlier in the final cut? 6): Did Shore compose Evenstar for the cut where the flashback occurred prior to Aragorn and Gandalf's conversation? 7): Is there any tracking in the theatrical version of One of the Dunedain for the transition to the Evenstar flashback? 8): Is the opening of The Houses of Healing something that was added to Arwen's Song when it replaced Sissel's? Or was it always part of Arwen's Song, and was removed from the Rarities track for listening purposes? 9a): Was Arwen's Song recorded during the TTT or ROTK sessions? 9b): Whereabouts would Arwen's Song have been placed in the TTT score? In the Rarities TORN live video, you mention it being around the vision of Aragorn's Grave, how would this have worked? Was this basically replaced by the latter portion of The Story Foretold? 10): There is an identical section of music in the TE and EE version of The Council of Elrond assembles, is it a case of the same bars being repurposed and re-recorded, or was it a case of the old recording being reused in a new context with EE recording inserts incorporated?
Jim Ware 638 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 I’ll come back to Hobbit questions. 5. Not sure but possible. 6. Also possible. Lots of this material seems to fit together in many possible permutations! 7. I do not believe so. 8. This was recorded for the ROTK EE. 9a. TTT 9b. Originally intended for the vision of Eldarion but moved around a bit before being bumped to the ROTK EE. 10. Do you have a timestamp? 1. There is some tracking here but this is mostly the opening of Out of the Frying-Pan. 2. Part of the revised A Good Omen. 3. The late revision of Riddles in the Dark incorporates a few bars of Thunder Battle (re-recorded). 4. I’d need to check in detail, but almost certainly. Edmilson 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Jim Ware said: I’ll come back to Hobbit questions. 5. Not sure but possible. 6. Also possible. Lots of this material seems to fit together in many possible permutations! 7. I do not believe so. 8. This was recorded for the ROTK EE. 9a. TTT 9b. Originally intended for the vision of Eldarion but moved around a bit before being bumped to the ROTK EE. 10. Do you have a timestamp? 1. There is some tracking here but this is mostly the opening of Out of the Frying-Pan. 2. Part of the revised A Good Omen. 3. The late revision of Riddles in the Dark incorporates a few bars of Thunder Battle (re-recorded). 4. I’d need to check in detail, but almost certainly. 1): so 0:00-0:48 A Good Omen (revised or microedited) > 0:49-1:14 Out of the Frying Pan > 1:14-1:36 A Good Omen? 1:36-1:53 Out of the Frying Pan? 1:53-End Out of the Frying Pan Insert (with Shire theme based on The White Council) 9): right, I guess I am just trying to figure out where the Eldarion vision would have been placed in TTT, was it a similar situation to its ROTK placement, where it would have cut from some other scene back to her in the forest/woods? 10): Sure! 3:08-3:20 11): Is the FOTR EE material for the Stone Trolls an edit, or a revision? 12: was the EE section of The Eyes of the White Tower recorded in the EE sessions or the main sessions? It just feels wierd listening to the TE version where it just ends at the crazy strings for Denethor getting spitting mad.
Popular Post BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 8 Popular Post Posted February 8 4 hours ago, Jim Ware said: I’m on a plane for the next nine hours, so feel free to ask any questions. - Is your seat comfortable? - Does the person sitting next to you bother you? - Can you please stop kicking the seat in front of you? - Is the food any good? P.S.: I would really appreciate it if you could stop kicking my seat. Edmilson, Stark, Cameron007 and 1 other 4
Jim Ware 638 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 1 hour ago, BloodBoal said: - Is your seat comfortable? - Does the person sitting next to you bother you? - Can you please stop kicking the seat in front of you? - Is the food any good? P.S.: I would really appreciate it if you could stop kicking my seat. My seat is broken. My wife is asleep and not bothering me. No. No. P.S. No. P.P.S. Interesting in-flight reading material though. enderdrag64 and Chen G. 2
Jim Ware 638 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 4 hours ago, The Score Cleaner said: 11): Is the FOTR EE material for the Stone Trolls an edit, or a revision? 12: was the EE section of The Eyes of the White Tower recorded in the EE sessions or the main sessions? It just feels wierd listening to the TE version where it just ends at the crazy strings for Denethor getting spitting mad. I’m going to check 11 (the extensions of two or three bars are generally just edits) but 12 is definitely an EE recording. The structure of this sequence was different, as Faramir was already in Minas Tirith by this point, so: Gandalf and Pippin confront Denethor Gandalf tells Pippin about his ‘important task’ Faramir and Denethor, Denethor has his vision of Boromir Lighting of the beacons The exposition scene in the courtyard was never in the film as scored originally. As written, this is all one composition running from the Gandalf/Denethor scene through to the Rohirrim riding out of Edoras.
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 @Jim Ware So the Sam and Gollum scene (no more slinker, no more stinker) was not present?
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 4 hours ago, Jim Ware said: The War Of The Rohirrim: The Complete Recordings release confirmed! Stark 1
Chen G. 6,009 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 39 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: The War Of The Rohirrim: The Complete Recordings release confirmed! Do I look to you like the Westfold? Then why are your firing me up!?
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 On 06/02/2026 at 1:31 PM, Edmilson said: Return of the King 602 The Grace of Undómiel/Minas Tirith Correction, Minas Tirith (602) corresponds to The White Tree/The Lighting of the Beacons not The Grace of Undomiel. Correct @Jim Ware?
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 On 06/02/2026 at 1:31 PM, Edmilson said: All right, here's every LOTR/Hobbit cue name and number we know so far. If there's more, let me know and I'll add to this post. A few more from ROTK with further info from the CCL thread. rotk 602 d811h cf813 D b203-261 Minas Tirith rotk dvd74 c308b cf218 The Battle of Pelennor rotk 615 907 The Siege of Gondor rotk 414 415b The Stairs of Cirith Ungol rotk 926 1001 a1002 The End of All Things rotk 912 917 The Black Gate Opens @Jim Ware is dvd74 the EE portion of Dernhelm in Battle, or Shieldmaiden of Rohan? Edmilson 1
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Awesome. I'll update my post as soon as possible with all the new info that came out since the last update. Still, these ROTK slates are a little weird, aren't they? 49 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk 602 d811h cf813 D b203-261 Minas Tirith 602 is the composition date (June 2nd), b-203-261 might be that this is an insert replacing bars 203 to 261 of the original composition. Not sure what the other codes indicate though. 51 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk dvd74 c308b cf218 The Battle of Pelennor dvd74 = a EE cue? Since we only had DVD at the time 53 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk 615 907 The Siege of Gondor I guess 615 is the composition date (June 15) and 907 is the orchestration date (September 7). Pretty late date for orchestrating this cue, no? I thought by September, recording was already happening, since the movie opened in December. 55 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk 414 415b The Stairs of Cirith Ungol Composed April 14, orchestrated April 15, the "b" might indicate that this was the second cue he orchestrated that day. 56 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk 926 1001 a1002 The End of All Things Composed September 26, orchestrated October 1st, probably revised October 2nd. That was a little more than two months before the movie opened. I guess the score was written and recorded in batches? Shore recorded the first half, then during October the climactic battle scenes? 59 minutes ago, The Score Cleaner said: rotk 912 917 The Black Gate Opens Composed September 12, orchestrated September 17. Okay then... @Jim Ware, are my assumptions correct?
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 3 minutes ago, Edmilson said: Awesome. I'll update my post as soon as possible with all the new info that came out since the last update. Still, these ROTK slates are a little weird, aren't they? 602 is the composition date (June 2nd), b-203-261 might be that this is an insert replacing bars 203 to 261 of the original composition. Not sure what the other codes indicate though. dvd74 = a EE cue? Since we only had DVD at the time I guess 615 is the composition date (June 15) and 907 is the orchestration date (September 7). Pretty late date for orchestrating this cue, no? I thought by September, recording was already happening, since the movie opened in December. Composed April 14, orchestrated April 15, the "b" might indicate that this was the second cue he orchestrated that day. Composed September 26, orchestrated October 1st, probably revised October 2nd. That was a little more than two months before the movie opened. I guess the score was written and recorded in batches? Shore recorded the first half, then during October the climactic battle scenes? Composed September 12, orchestrated September 17. Okay then... @Jim Ware, are my assumptions correct? Remember there were two versions of the final battle: The Crack of Doom on the CR Sammath Naur on the Rarities. Edmilson 1
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 29 minutes ago, Edmilson said: I guess 615 is the composition date (June 15) and 907 is the orchestration date (September 7). Pretty late date for orchestrating this cue, no? I thought by September, recording was already happening, since the movie opened in December. Shore kept writing and recording cues until very late in the process. Remember that some special effects were actually finalized in December! Edmilson 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 15 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: Shore kept writing and recording cues until very late in the process. Remember that some special effects were actually finalized in December! Yeah, isn't there a appendices video where they were grumbling a bit about it? Some kind of meeting or something?
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Yep. Then of course that process got even worse with The Hobbit. Edmilson 1
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Also @Edmilson: Three "versions" of Siege of Gondor: Rarities TE/OST EE/CR Two to Three versions of Black Gate Opens: An unreleased more uplifting early version of the first part of Aragorn's speech, heard in the Use Well the Days documentary The OST version The CR version. Two to Three versions of Lighting of the Beacons (Minas Tirith): OST Version TE Version CR/EE version Two to three versions of The Stairs of Cirith Ungol: Potential Early version before the Gandalf and Pippin section was part of the composition. OST/CR version EE version (possibly editorial or possibly from the early version?) Edmilson 1
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 2 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Shore kept writing and recording cues until very late in the process. Remember that some special effects were actually finalized in December! So kind of a similar thing to Williams' work on the Star Wars Sequels, right? In Shore's case, he was lucky to keep booking the LPO and all those choirs and soloists during that whole year
BloodBoal 8,485 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 17 minutes ago, Edmilson said: So kind of a similar thing to Williams' work on the Star Wars Sequels, right? Yes, though I would wager the Star Wars sequel trilogy was even worse than that (especially Rise Of The Skywalker). Just look at how many revised versions Williams had to write for almost every single cue! It is like he wrote (at least) two versions of each score! The closest a Middle-Earth score got to that was probably An Unexpected Journey. The Desolation Of Smaug and The Battle Of The Five Armies at least do not seem to have that many alternates/revised versions (though we have far less information about what was written and/or recorded for those than we do for the sequel trilogy). Stark and Edmilson 2
Edmilson 12,182 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 New version of the post! Added Dwarrowdelf and the "m" cues to FOTR, the newly unearthed ROTK and DOS cues, and lr111b (The Edge of the Wild) to AUJ. Also made a few cosmetic changes to facilitate reading. Here's how we stand as of now: FOTR: 6 recording cues (in the reel number, part letter format), 8 writing cues (in the "m" format), plus almost the entirety (?) of the cue names but without slates thanks to AICN and GEMA. TTT: 1 recording cue, 0 writing cues. ROTK: 7 cues, though we may still figure out some details about that score's bizarre numbering system. AUJ: 16 cues. DOS: 21 cues (though I think one or two might be inserts). BOTFA: 1 cue, with no number. I'll give a like to every post from now on from the user who brings me more TTT and BOTFA cues with numbers, or more slates in general from the other movies (especially FOTR and ROTK), even if such post is something like "JNH is the worst composer of all time! He should've been working at McDonald's and not as a film composer!". Spoiler Not really, but I'd appreciate more cues anyway
Rachael Foley 10,001 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 In this documentary, I wonder if the timecode stuff lines up with the slates? rotk 506 1026 Shelob's Lair rotk dvd79 Houses of Healing rotk 805 1103 The Grey Havens rotk 707 Use Well the Days Looks like the EE material for Siege of Gondor was dvd71? And Eowyn and Faramir was recorded on the last day, March 13th 2004, and some info onscreen says m3 r10 dvd v05 (or 06?) 25 February 2004
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