Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[enderdrag64 624]

On 17/04/2021 at 7:13 PM, Jay said:

This is what I have in my old notes for the start of the second half of the film

 

47A	Gilraen's Memorial			TCR II-9 "Gilraen's Memorial" (0:00-1:08)	1:08
48	Bilbo's Gifts	TCR II-9 "Gilraen's Memorial" (1:08-2:03) + OST 11 (0:18-0:46)	1:22	TCR II-9 "Gilraen's Memorial" (1:08-2:40)	1:32
48A	The Departure of the Fellowship			TCR II-9 "Gilraen's Memorial" (2:40-3:46)	1:06
49	The Ring Goes South	OST 11 "The Ring Goes South" (0:46-end)	1:13	TCR II-9 "Gilraen's Memorial" (3:46-end)	1:15
50	Hobbit Duel	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (0:00-0:12)	0:14	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (0:00-0:21)	0:21
51	Crebain Spies	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (0:21-1:20)	0:58
52	To Caradhras	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (1:20-1:50)	0:30
53	A Strange Fate	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (1:50-2:23)	0:33
54	Into the Caverns	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (2:23-3:07)	0:44
55	The Pass of Caradhras	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (3:07-4:18)	1:11
56	The Ring-Bearer	TCR II-10 "The Pass of Caradhras" (4:18-end)	0:46
57	The Walls of Moria	Unreleased	0:33	TCR II-11 "The Doors of Durin" (0:00-1:35)	1:35
58	The Doors of Durin	Unreleased	0:56	TCR II-11 "The Doors of Durin" (1:35-3:09)	1:34
59	Speak Friend and Enter	TCR II-11 "The Doors of Durin" (3:09-3:49)	0:40
60	Into The Mines	TCR II-11 "The Doors of Durin" (3:49-4:20)	0:31
61	The Watcher	TCR II-11 "The Doors of Durin" (4:20-end)	1:43
62	A Journey In The Dark	OST 12 "A Journey In The Dark" (0:00-1:17)	1:17	TCR II-12 "Moria"	2:27
63	Gollum	TCR II-13 "Gollum (0:00-0:13) + (0:32-1:18)	0:59	TCR II-13 "Gollum" (0:00-1:18)	1:18
64	Fate Of Many	TCR II-13 "Gollum" (1:18-end)	1:08
65	Dwarrowdelf	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (0:00-1:12)	1:12
66	Balin's Tomb	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (1:12-3:00)	1:48
67	Orc Attack	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (3:00-4:06)	1:06
68	The Cave Troll	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (4:06-6:42)	2:36
69	Mithril!	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (6:42-7:26)	0:44
70	The Second Hall	TCR II-14 "Balin's Tomb" (7:26-end)	1:04
71	The Bridge of Khazad-Dum	TCR III-1 "Khazad-Dum" (0:00-3:33)	3:33
72	The Balrog	TCR III-1 "Khazad-Dum" (3:33-5:20)	1:47
73	Gandalf's Demise	TCR III-1 "Khazad-Dum" (5:20-6:55)	1:35
74	Elegy For Gandalf	TCR III-1 "Khazad-Dum" (6:55-end)	1:05

Is there anymore to this spreadsheet? (i.e. the rest of film and/or the others in the trilogy?)

[Jay 37,264]

Well, that old doc I made is very old and full of inaccuracies and I'd love to start over from the ground up when I have the time

[Faleel 5,326]

 

[Monoverantus 363]

For how impressive it is as a project, it was a pretty dull listening experience...

[Chen G. 3,941]

Der Ring ohne worte, mit Metal!

[Arpy 4,145]

Three is Company was pretty slappin' in this mode.

[Monoverantus 363]

Anyone who can help me out?

Going by info in the Return of the King Annotated Score and A Magpie's Nest, the Grey Havens scene did have lyrics at one point, though it may not have been for the Grey Havens theme itself. Watching the LotR Symphony, it looks to me that the choir is singing words, so could this be it? Magpie speculated that the humming choir might have sung the last lines from Frodo's Song:

Amrûn n'Anor, Annûn n'Ithil - East of the Sun, West of the Moon.

 

[Jim Ware 525]

On 27/03/2022 at 11:00 AM, Monoverantus said:

Anyone who can help me out?

Going by info in the Return of the King Annotated Score and A Magpie's Nest, the Grey Havens scene did have lyrics at one point, though it may not have been for the Grey Havens theme itself. Watching the LotR Symphony, it looks to me that the choir is singing words, so could this be it? Magpie speculated that the humming choir might have sung the last lines from Frodo's Song:

Amrûn n'Anor, Annûn n'Ithil - East of the Sun, West of the Moon.

 

 

Good ears. As written phonetically in the score:

 

ahm roon nah nawr 

ahm noon nee theel

 

This synchronises with the cut to the sea after Frodo smiles back at the three hobbits on the shore (Live to Projection bars 32.90-32.101, Lord of the Rings Symphony, movement VI, bars 393-402). I've not checked, but I'd be very surprised if this wasn't recorded.

[Lukas T 6]

I love the "Lighting of the Beacons" from RotK. The orchestration is just phenomenal. Super interesting how the melody is traded between instruments. Howard Shore said this is one of the pieces he is most proud of.

 

I made a cover for pipe organ and performed it live to the film. There are quite a few people here who know the soundtrack very well - so I am curious to get feedback.  I have transcribed the entire first hour of RotK, might upload more pieces later.

[Potterhead 42]

https://anchor.fm/filmmaestro/episodes/Lord-of-the-Rings-2001-2003-Part-II-e1i1d5b

 

Feel free to listen 

[Monoverantus 363]

Gonna be brutally honest with you, this (and Part 1) barely has anything to do with the music of LotR. Now I know me and people in this forum are probably an unusually well-informed demographic, but I don't think someone who knows nothing about the LotR score would learn much new from this either.

Also please prepare better. Rewatch the movies. Look up names. Listen to the tracks you want to discuss before playing them. Going "here's the track where the Fellowship comes together", playing the wrong track, and then going "huh, that wasn't the right track" is just a waste of everyone's time.

[Holko 9,491]

Here's something I never really thought about - the FotR CR is Shore's score as is in the EE (or a very close approximation), and the other two are how Shore's score would have been in the other 2 EEs if parts weren't dialed out and moved around as cuts changed (plus some cues that were recorded for the TE cut but changed/moved in the EE but weren't edited to match this on the CR itself). The different material the OSTs and Rarities offer are also just alternates of this same material. But surely the cuts he originally scored were wider than the EEs? Did he record new material for some EE scenes after the TEs? Did he score any deleted scenes we haven't seen and heard? Surely there were some scenes they removed kinda late and weren't put back for the EEs. I think the only such bit we have is something with Frodo and pals on the Stairs in one of the longer RotK cues that was deleted in the film but left in for the CR.

[Jay 37,264]

On 24/08/2022 at 2:44 AM, Holko said:

Did he record new material for some EE scenes after the TEs?

 

He recorded ALL the EE cues after the TC scores.

 

On 24/08/2022 at 2:44 AM, Holko said:

Did he score any deleted scenes we haven't seen and heard?

 

I do not believe so.

 

On 24/08/2022 at 2:44 AM, Holko said:

Surely there were some scenes they removed kinda late and weren't put back for the EEs.

 

There were absolutely TRIMS made to scenes after the score cue was recorded for the theatrical cut, that were not restored to their longer lengths in the EE.

 

But, I don't think there are any ENTIRE SCENES that were scored, cut from the TC, and then not restored for the EE.

[Chen G. 3,941]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

He recorded ALL the EE cues after the TC scores.

 

 

Not all: Some extended edition segments are the original cuts of what he recorded for the theatrical: The Farewell to Lorien sequence is that: its the theatrical recording that's the alternate.

[Jay 37,264]

Not true!  The EE version was sketched before the TC version, but then only the TC version was recorded before the theatrical release

 

He then returned to his original sketch to finish and record the EE cue in 2002.

[TolkienSS 405]

Have there ever been actual conductor scores been released (or leaked) for the film scores or the live to projection scores?

[Jay 37,264]

Yea some dude posted scans of the Live To Projection conductor's scores for all 3 films to reddit, and they've been all over the internet ever since

 

Hardly anything from the actual film cues has leaked though

[enderdrag64 624]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea some dude posted scans of the Live To Projection conductor's scores for all 3 films to reddit, and they've been all over the internet ever since

 

Hardly anything from the actual film cues has leaked though

do those LTP sheets have cue titles/slate numbers in them?

[Jay 37,264]

Nope

[Faleel 5,326]

So I did a thing.

 

I always thought it was interesting how the first appearance of Gondor/Minas Tirith in FOTR is scored not with any material related to Gondor but with Mordor/non-thematic material ("Shadow of the Past" 1:45-2:02 or "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" 6:33-6:49)

 

Which always made me wonder how it might have sounded if one of the Gondor themes had been used. (Even if not using it, was the right choice, allowing it to build over the three films.)

 

Well, now with a small amount of composing knowledge, and samples, I decided to answer that question for my self.

 

Here is, as a fun experiment, a very short mockup of a variation that recently popped into my head, inspiring this little project:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q-esIYcifunLVo75pbrNbPJL5etfEUhT/view

 

@Jay@Incanus @Monoverantus

@Kühni

[Chen G. 3,941]

Interesting experiment!

 

5 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

I always thought it was interesting how the first appearance of Gondor/Minas Tirith in FOTR is scored not with any material related to Gondor but with Mordor/non-thematic material ("Shadow of the Past" 1:45-2:02 or "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" 6:33-6:49)

 

Shore should have found a place to use that Numenorean material from the prologue. In my mind, it fullfils an important structural function: its the only time Gondor's music is heard ending with an upward motion and major chords before Aragorn's coronation: it places a "goal" for Gondor's music to strive towards.

 

Having said all of that, that fanfare does allude to Gondor with two important elements that are NOT melody or harmony: tonality and timbre. Its in brass (patently mankind's timbre) and in D Minor, Gondor's tonality (actually, Mordor's too, but the ambiguity is intentional, and works well for the scene).

 

Its actually a feature of the score to The Fellowship of the Ring: Minas Tirith, Moria and (in the OST) Weathertop get revealed to the sound of fanfares that don't strictly quote any pertient theme: Monoverantus identifies the Moria one as a modulation of the Ring material immediately preceeding it.

 

[Jay 37,264]

8 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

So I did a thing.

 

I always thought it was interesting how the first appearance of Gondor/Minas Tirith in FOTR is scored not with any material related to Gondor but with Mordor/non-thematic material ("Shadow of the Past" 1:45-2:02 or "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" 6:33-6:49)

 

Which always made me wonder how it might have sounded if one of the Gondor themes had been used. (Even if not using it, was the right choice, allowing it to build over the three films.)

 

Well, now with a small amount of composing knowledge, and samples, I decided to answer that question for my self.

 

Here is, as a fun experiment, a very short mockup of a variation that recently popped into my head, inspiring this little project:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q-esIYcifunLVo75pbrNbPJL5etfEUhT/view

 

@Jay@Incanus @Monoverantus

@Kühni

 

Woah, that was cool, I liked it! 

[Monoverantus 363]

9 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Here is, as a fun experiment, a very short mockup of a variation that recently popped into my head, inspiring this little project:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q-esIYcifunLVo75pbrNbPJL5etfEUhT/view

Very well done! Although I'm 100% fine with what Shore did, I'm impressed that such a little touch feels cohesive with the rest of the score without being too on the nose.

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its actually a feature of the score to The Fellowship of the Ring: Minas Tirith, Moria and (in the OST) Weathertop get revealed to the sound of fanfares that don't strictly quote any pertient theme.

I had never sat down and analysed that rejected part from At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, but it was well worth it: The transition from the Five-Beat Pattern to the unusued material uses the same vi-IV progression that we hear at the Gates of Moria and the end of History of the Ring at Rauros, plus other classic Shore material like rising fifths and Mt Doom chords.

[Chen G. 3,941]

Gondorian intervals, for the remains of an Arnorian tower. That tracks. Like in Aragorn’s “The Northern kingdom was destroyed long ago.”

 

Something for anyone scoring the inevitable Angmar War movie to keep to heart, I suppose.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

On 12/03/2023 at 5:24 AM, Chen G. said:

IIts actually a feature of the score to The Fellowship of the Ring: Minas Tirith, Moria and (in the OST) Weathertop get revealed to the sound of fanfares that don't strictly quote any pertient theme: Monoverantus identifies the Moria one as a modulation of the Ring material immediately preceeding it.

 

Sorry, would you mind clarifying what you mean by the "in the OST" regarding Weathertop's reveal?

[Jay 37,264]

The cue Shore wrote and recorded for the Isengard deforesting and the group arriving at Amon Sul/Weathertop is heard in edited form at the end of the "At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony" OST track, or complete form at the end of the "Out From Bree" Rarities Archive track.

 

Check it out synced back to the final film footage in @Faleel's video, from 2:07-end:

 

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9c284MW4wRF83SU0/view?resourcekey=0-7HNMulqa8Rf1DK9_pbce6Q

 

For the final film, Peter Jackson rejected the entire cue.  He had the Isengard deforesting play without music, and used a re-recording (in a different key, and shortened) of the "sword that was broken" cue for the Weathertop arrival.  This created the "theme" Doug called Evil Times.  And this replacement cue is what appears on the CR album instead of Shore's original intentions, like the rest of the CR release.

[Richard Penna 3,664]

The google drive video above requires access. But I thought the bit at the end of Prancing was for Gandalf's reveal on top of Orthanc?

[Jay 37,264]

Added a link you can click to see the video

 

And yes, Gandalf on top or Orthanc is part of the cue, which you'll see now that you can see the video.

[Richard Penna 3,664]

Ah, so I think at some point I've seen a video where someone's synced up that original ending with the shot of Gandalf, and not the Weathertop reveal, i.e. the music is 20 seconds or so earlier.

 

I totally agree with the tracking there - the fanfare and choir is way too much at that point. Of course the CR should have presented the intended cue, but I don't think it works in the film.

[Jay 37,264]

AFAIK all the placements in @Faleel's thread are accurate: 

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23525-the-lord-of-the-rings-score-restored-unused-howard-shore-music-restored-to-picture

[Chen G. 3,941]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

creating a "theme" Doug called Evil Times

 

You believe that, too, only became a recurring theme at that point in the scoring process? That would be tremendous, because that motive is one of the absolute cornerstones of the score.

 

[Jay 37,264]

I see no evidence to the contrary.  Obviously he used it more in the sequel scores, but as far as all the recorded music we've been given access to for FOTR, he only wrote it into the sword that was broken scene, and then it only appeared in the Weathertop reveal because PJ rejected what he wrote for it and wanted that in there instead.

[Chen G. 3,941]

Its in a lot of Lorien scenes (more implicitly, I grant)...

[Jay 37,264]

Evil Times in Lorien scenes in FOTR?

 

EDIT: Oh wow, this list says it appears in Flight To The Ford/Give Up the Halfling, The Pass of Caradhras, and Balin's Tomb.  Can't say I ever heard it in those tracks...

 

I'll have to give a listen and see what I think!  Maybe I've been mistaken all these years!

[Chen G. 3,941]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

Balin's Tomb

 

Its a component in the theme that's heard when Gandalf falls.

 

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

Evil Times in Lorien scenes in FOTR?

 

Again, its in the main theme of those sequences, and here especially Shore finds remarkably clever ways to highlight it. See in Mono's video:

 

 

None of this is to contradict Shore having hit upon this as a discrete musical idea late in the game, mind you.

[Jay 37,264]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its a component in the theme that's heard when Gandalf falls.

 

Gandalf's fall is in the next track (Khazad-dum), not this track

 

But yes, I will listen with a more attentive ear to all these pieces

[Chen G. 3,941]

Oh right! I'll hang my head in shame later!

 

Then again, its also inherent to the theme associated with the Fellowship itself, so... It really is a very basic building block of the entire piece.

[Jay 37,264]

Just now, Chen G. said:

But I can't for the life of me say where it would be in Balin's tomb.

 

The thread I linked to has timestamps

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

For the final film, Peter Jackson rejected the entire cue.  He had the Isengard deforesting play without music, and used a re-recording (in a different key, and shortened) of the "sword that was broken" cue for the Weathertop arrival.  This created the "theme" Doug called Evil Times.

This wouldn't surprise me at all, not the least considering how it's supposedly derived from The History of the the Ring, which wouldn't have been an established theme at the time either.

23 minutes ago, Jay said:

EDIT: Oh wow, this list says it appears in Flight To The Ford/Give Up the Halfling, The Pass of Caradhras, and Balin's Tomb.  Can't say I ever heard it in those tracks...

 

I don't blame you, for neither of those tracks has the distinctive "half-step up-and-down, then whole-step down" contour that defines the motif. In Flight to the Ford and The Pass of Caradhras, it's "whole-step up-and-down, then half-step down". And in Balin's Tomb, it's based on this Doug quote: "Interspersed with Dwarrowdelf is the down-and-back opening of the Fellowship theme, but in a minor mode and affixed with a fourth melodic tone that inches the figure closer to Evil Times." This shape, C-Bb-C-G, is so far removed from the original motif that I straight up don't understand the connection...

[Jay 37,264]

Ah, interesting!

[Faleel 5,326]

On the topic of the Sword that Was Broken cue, I believe the two versions are thus:

 

The version on the CR in "The Nazgul", that was meant for the TE Narsil reveal (but is cut down, as it was meant to start earlier, on the shot of Aragorn reading the book, I believe the LTP supports this, and I think you can still hear a short note fading out on the cut to the library)

 

The version in the CR track "The Sword that was Broken", that was re-recorded for the EE

[Chen G. 3,941]

11 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

neither of those tracks has the distinctive "half-step up-and-down, then whole-step down" contour that defines the motif. In Flight to the Ford and The Pass of Caradhras, it's "whole-step up-and-down, then half-step down".

 

I think a way we can pass those as instances of that motive, is if we think of it primarily as any combination of Sauron's "Ur-motif" (the halfstep up-and-down) and the Fellowship's (the fullstep down-and-up). This, to my mind, is the right way to think of this motif and of all the motifs that are related to it (including, but not limited to, all the motifs that Doug groups as "Middle Earth"), all of which have to do with Sauron's influence on Middle Earth.

 

So, "halfstep up-and-down and then fullstep down" is a partial reading of this motif, but "fullstep up-and-down and halfstep down" is a partial reading of its inversion, but still recognisably the same basic concept of mingling Fellowship music and Sauron music. Its actually a very pictorial depiction of its association: the members of the Fellowship toiling in the struggle against Sauron, or the Fellowship contaminated by Sauron's malignancy.

[Jay 37,264]

15 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

On the topic of the Sword that Was Broken cue, I believe the two versions are thus:

 

The version on the CR in "The Nazgul", that was meant for the TE Narsil reveal (but is cut down, as it was meant to start earlier, on the shot of Aragorn reading the book, I believe the LTP supports this.)

 

The version in the CR track "The Sword that was Broken", that was re-recorded for the EE

 

 

Ah yes, that's right - I'm remembering more details now that I had forgotten!

 

The old DVD of FOTR actually features more of the replacement cue for the Weathertop reveal than the film/CR does in the scene selection menu for the weathertop chapter.  So this would be the original recording; Whether it was written for the Weathertop reveal (IE a true proper insert), or written for "the sword that was broken" but then unused where intended (tracked into Weathertop instead), I don't think we have a definitive answer for, actually!

But then yes, the "sword that was broken" cue heard in the EE film and on the CR is clearly a 2002 recording, and the one that had bars removed and transposed up a step and a half compared to the original cue.

 

I think that I fall on the side of it being more likely that the original recording was actually a proper insert for the Weathertop reveal, and originally the sword that was broken scene was spotted to have no music at all (like how it is in the theatrical cut).  But then when he added that extra Aragorn/Boromir dialogue in the EE cut, it was decided the scene needed music after all, so they took the replacement Weathertop reveal cue, took out some bars, transposed it up, and recorded that to fit the scene.

 

Either way, "Evil Times" as a clear distinct theme only appears twice in FOTR due to tinkering  

[Faleel 5,326]

NVM

[Chen G. 3,941]

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

Either way, "Evil Times" as a clear distinct them only appears twice in FOTR due to tinkering  

 

Remarkable how at least two of the series' most absolutely fundemental building blocks were arrived at this way!

[Faleel 5,326]

Just for reference, here is the original full evil times recording synced to the TE Narsil scene:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9Z2dKX0xLRnV1UFE/view?resourcekey=0-0hackgsdCukECMFiUI8YFA

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

The cue Shore wrote and recorded for the Isengard deforesting and the group arriving at Amon Sul/Weathertop is heard in edited form at the end of the "At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony" OST track, or complete form at the end of the "Out From Bree" Rarities Archive track.

 

Check it out synced back to the final film footage in @Faleel's video, from 2:07-end:

 

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9c284MW4wRF83SU0/view?resourcekey=0-7HNMulqa8Rf1DK9_pbce6Q

 

For the final film, Peter Jackson rejected the entire cue.  He had the Isengard deforesting play without music, and used a re-recording (in a different key, and shortened) of the "sword that was broken" cue for the Weathertop arrival.  This created the "theme" Doug called Evil Times.  And this replacement cue is what appears on the CR album instead of Shore's original intentions, like the rest of the CR release.

 

Thanks a lot for explaining, Jay. I really appreciate it.

 

50 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Remarkable how at least two of the series' most absolutely fundemental building blocks were arrived at this way!

 

What are the two, if I may ask?

[Chen G. 3,941]

9 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

What are the two, if I may ask?

The half-step up-and-down ‘Ur’-motif, and the derived theme associated with the Ring: those gestures had existed in the earliest sketches for the project, but were clearly not intended to have quite the significance or association they have in the finished piece, where they’re instead the wellspring of all the bad guy music in the piece.

 

The other is the motif we were just discussing: a combination of Sauron’s ‘Ur’-motif and the Fellowship’s one: all the themes that have to do with Sauron’s influence on Middle Earth (including all of Gollum’s music, all of the accompaniment figures of the bad guys, all the themes Doug groups as “Middle Earth”, the wizards' music, etc…) grow out of this basic building block.

 

Actually there’s a third: as Shore’s earliest sketches show, early on (probably before anything was recorded, however) he didn’t yet land on one of the ‘Ur’ motifs of the Dwarves, which would be the parallel fifths and the intervallic profile of the music.

 

He did have some of the others, though: his earliest sketches (Jackson remembers them predating principal photography) for the Hobbit scenes are pretty closed to the finished article, and he also sketched the theme associated with the Fellowship (with its own ‘Ur’ motif: Fullsteps down-and-up) at the time; and shortly thereafter the melody heard at Dwarrowdelf (the other Dwarven ‘Ur’ motif), as well as hitting upon using odd time signatures as the ‘Ur’ motif for the Orcs. Gondor’s music soon followed.

[Faleel 5,326]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

 

as Shore’s earliest sketches show, early on he didn’t yet and on one of the ‘Ur’ motifs of the Dwarves,

 

 

Could you elaborate? I think something got lost here.

 

Did you mean "Shore’s earliest sketches show, early on he didn’t yet land on one of the ‘Ur’ motifs of the Dwarves" ?

[Chen G. 3,941]

There’s that Moria track in the Rarities… it sounds nothing like the finished piece. The early draft is not based on parallel fifths like the final composition, and those fifths (both in and of themselves, and more generally in terms of the music being primarily intervallic: e.g. Erebor) is an ‘Ur’ motif.
 

That’s different to the other examples because by the time he was on the podium at Wellington (for Cannes), he and the filmmakers had already hit upon the parallel fifths that would comprise (one part of) the music of the Dwarves going forward.

 

Whereas with the Ring’s music and the music of Sauron’s influence on Middle Earth, it took him a while into the composition and recording to establish those ideas as such.