Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

slightly off topic, but also a bit related, but IIRC Doug stated one of the Dwarf themes from the Hobbit started out as Dol Guldur material, or vice versa.

[Chen G. 3,204]

Right. I’m still wondering which one that was!

 

But since the whole idea is that the theme groups “play catch” with the individual themes, it’s not far fetched that Shore came up with an idea, rejected it in one thematic context and then “Dwarvified” it.

[Jay 32,037]

I just love that 22 years on we're still figuring out new things about these magical scores  

[Richard Penna 2,639]

I didn't even realise that the intended Weathertop reveal was at the end of the rarities track. I found some of those additional cues far more interesting than others, and that just fell under the radar.

 

The 'score restore' videos are academically very interesting, but I do think they highlight for me, especially based on the Weathertop example, that PJ did a lot of sensible tracking. Of course, not to suggest for a moment that those bits should have been on the CRs, but I see so many occasions where either the film has silence or tracking, and I hear the original music and think.... yeah... that doesn't work.

[Jay 32,037]

Oh yes, I've never thought that every single first version cue Shore wrote was perfect for the film and PJ was wrong to change anything.

It's case by case.  Sometimes I think keeping Shore's first intention would have made the film stronger.  Sometimes I think the rewrite improved the scene.  Sometimes I think going with no music at all improved the scene.  The one thing I mostly don't really like if when PJ tracked a cue intended for another scene into a different one.  In all those cases, I wish there was time/opportunity instead for Shore to write a proper insert that makes musical sense but gives the feel PJ wanted from the tracked bit, but of course I understand why that wasn't possible most of the time.

 

But yea, Mike & Neil and other great specialty label producers have shown how to create new albums that cover everything recorded in ways that still make musical sense, and I wish we could get albums in their style done for these great scores.  Only presenting one version of cues with no bonus tracks at all is a bummer when Shore wrote so many interesting alternates, and the extra level of disappointment from the FOTR one containing film edits, loops, and tracking is especially disappointing.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

I think another thing to keep in mind, is that the tracks used for my videos (aside for maaaaybe a few bits and bobs from the dvd menus) are NOT mixed for film use, and the videos themselves are not mixed like a film.

 

Personally I feel that the concept of the edits work, but that the edits themselves could be improves, sometimes by choosing a different place for it to to drop out.

[Richard Penna 2,639]

Certainly they're missing sound effects, etc, but I think they are a good representation generally.

 

The intended Weathertop reveal for example, I could've sworn was for Gandalf's reveal 20 seconds earlier, and I don't think that even if you removed the choir (as on the OST) or turned it down in the mix, that it would be any more appropriate for the scene. 

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

The one thing I mostly don't really like if when PJ tracked a cue intended for another scene into a different one.  In all those cases, I wish there was time/opportunity instead for Shore to write a proper insert that makes musical sense but gives the feel PJ wanted from the tracked bit, but of course I understand why that wasn't possible most of the time.

 

I have a more lenient approach to that - I don't actually mind if a section was the intended cue or tracked or is an alternate if it creatively achieves what they wanted. In fact, yesterday was the first time I realised that the tracked Weathertop reveal was actually tracked from Sword... because it's not obviously an edit in the film mechanically, and creatively it strikes just the right tone.

 

I think all it means is that some of us have fun recreating those film versions as if they were alternates in a bonus section, and others just settle for the original cue.

[Jay 32,037]

I think when all we had was the OST track, it seemed possible that that ending bit could be for Gandalf based on the length there.  But then when we got the whole cue with the Rarities Archive, it was obvious there was only one way it could have gone

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

Personally the only thing it has going against it IMHO, is that it's loud, while Viggo's line delivery is soft and quiet, so the music would probably drown it out (unless they used a different, higher "velocity" take of his dialogue)

 

Fun fact, this bit was used in the TTT hack n slash game for the post level "level up/skill purchase" screen, so I still associate it with that game lol (along with the dissonant Fanfare from the alternate Flight to the Ford on the CR/OST)

[Jay 32,037]

That's a good point, we have no idea if the original cue was composed for a different edit of the picture that could have used different takes

[Richard Penna 2,639]

11 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Personally the only thing it has going against it IMHO, is that it's loud, while Viggo's line delivery is soft and quiet, so the music would probably drown it out (unless they used a different, higher "velocity" take of his dialogue)

 

I think that's a pretty big thing against it, plus the tone of the entire scene is the end of a long day, finding a place to sleep. I find it hard to see a grand, positive fanfare in that moment.

 

I would absolutely go for the idea that the rarities cue could have been written for a different edit, based purely on how strongly it seems to me that it doesn't fit that moment.

[Jay 32,037]

Yea, interesting discussion here!

[Richard Penna 2,639]

Particularly, if you line up the shot of Gandalf wrapping up with when the percussion stops, the fanfare lines up with the shot of Orthanc, and the crescendo ends just before Viggo's line.

 

All it would take would've been shortening the Uruk Hai bits by a few shots to make the difference.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

10 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

I think that's a pretty big thing against it, plus the tone of the entire scene is the end of a long day, finding a place to sleep. I find it hard to see a grand, positive fanfare in that moment.

For it me it works, because it's cutting to our heroes, arriving at an old Gondorian outpost, so its relieving the tension, from the desolation of Isengard, Gandalf's imprisonment, and that long hard day.

 

Pretty much any reveal of a important new place gets a Fanfare in these scores, Isengard, Moria, Rohan, Minas Tirith, and even earlier in the film, there is a big swell when Aragorn tells Sam they are heading to Rivendell.

[Monoverantus 335]

1 hour ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Fun fact, this bit was used in the TTT hack n slash game for the post level "level up/skill purchase" screen, so I still associate it with that game lol (along with the dissonant Fanfare from the alternate Flight to the Ford on the CR/OST)

Hell yes! The first time I heard "Out of Bree" from the Rarities CD was so satisfying, because my mind immediately recognised the material from that game. It was like getting the answer to a question I had never asked.

[Chen G. 3,204]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

All it would take would've been shortening the Uruk Hai bits by a few shots to make the difference.

 

I believe the Uruk Hai composition has a few looped measures (which is all the same, being that its really just percussion) to things synch up.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I believe the Uruk Hai composition has a few looped measures (which is all the same, being that its really just percussion) to things synch up.

Do you mean like how Rozsa (or Goldsmith for the Cloud sequence in ST TMP) would sometimes add in extra bars to his compositions to aid in the editing process?

 

Otherwise, I believe the rarities presents the piece as recorded, so why would the Rarities have a loop?

[Chen G. 3,204]

20 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Otherwise, I believe the rarities presents the piece as recorded, so why would the Rarities have a loop?

 

I don't think the rarities do, but the film sure does, and I believe the CR replicates it.

[Jay 32,037]

Again you're talking about a different piece of music than the person you quoted is.

 

He's talking about the music for the deforesting of Isengard, which is on the OST album and Rarities CD, but wasn't used in the film and isn't on the CR.

 

When he said "Uruk hai bits" he meant their theme (as heard in the unused cue in question), not the music in the CR track by that name

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't think the rarities do, but the film sure does, and I believe the CR replicates it.

The cue was unused in the film..... and is not on the CR.

 

You must be talking about A Knife in the Dark/The Caverns of Isengard, which is also different in the film than on the CR and the OST

[universalscore1 0]

Any of Howard's handwritten sheets available? Everything available is typeset. Would love to get my hands on them if they're out there!

[Jay 32,037]

If the sheets had ever gotten out, we wouldn't have a lot of the questions we have about these scores!

[Edmilson 4,966]

On 17/04/2021 at 12:12 PM, Jim Ware said:

Balin's Tomb (m91) was the first piece recorded. On the CR, it can be heard from 1:13-3:01 in the track of the same name. 

 

Also recorded on this day - Gollum (m88) and Orc Attack (m93, appears immediately after Balin's Tomb in the CR track of the same name). 

 

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere (as it probably has) but does anyone have the cue list for the trilogy and their breakdown on the CRs? 

[Jay 32,037]

8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere (as it probably has) but does anyone have the cue list for the trilogy and their breakdown on the CRs? 

 

See here.

 

Specifically Jim Ware's posts in that thread in 2010, 2015, and 2016 where he indicated he would compile and share the original cue names.  He never did though, to my knowledge, so we still wait

 

Of course, you can always use GEMA to get a list of cues that ended up in the final cut of each film, though I think they are largely different names than what Shore wrote on his original sheet music for whatever reason

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

We do have the L2P titles IIRC.

[enderdrag64 374]

here are all the LTP titles for all 3 films:

 

Fellowship of the Ring

 

Act I

1. Prologue

2. Bag End

3a. Old Friends

3b. Bilbo

4a. The One Ring

4b. Shadow of the Past

4c. Conspiracy Unmasked

5. Conspiracy Unmasked, Part 2

6. Three Is Company

7. Three Is Company, Part 2

8a. Shortcut to Mushrooms

8b. The Old Forest

9. The Old Forest, Part 2

10. Sign of the Prancing Pony

11a. Sign of the Prancing Pony, Part 2

11b. Isengard

12. A Knife in the Dark

13a. A Knife in the Dark, Part 2

13b. A Knife in the Dark, Part 3

13c. Flight to the Ford

14a. Orthanc

14b. Many Meetings

15. Strider

16a. Council of Elrond

16b. Council of Elrond, Part 2

 

Act II

16c. Council of Elrond reprise

17. The Ring Goes South

18a. Caradhras

18b. Sirannon

19a. Moria

19b. Gollum

19c. Dwarrodelf

19d. Balin's Tomb

20. Orc Attack

21a. Cave Troll

21b. Mithril Vest

21c. The Second Hall

22a. Khazad-Dum

22b. Balrog

23a. Lothlorien

23b. Gandalf's Lament

23c. Boromir

23d. Mirror of Galadriel

24a. Farewell to Lothlorien

24b. The River of Anduin

25. Amon Hen

26a. Amon Hen, Part 2

26b. The Great River

26c. Departure of Boromir

27. End Credits

 

 

The Two Towers

 

Act I

1. Glamdring

2a. Elven Rope, part 1

2b. Elven Rope, part 2

2c. Elven Rope, part 3

2d. Elven Rope, part 4

3a. Ugluk's Warriors

3b. The Three Hunters

3c. Driven From Ithilien

3d. Grima, Son of Galmod

3e. Tracking the Uruk-Hai

4. Night Camp

5a. The Plains of Rohan

5b. Hasufel

5c. Fangorn Forest

6a. The Dead Marshes

6b. Wraiths on Wings

7a. Entering Fangorn

7b. Bank of the Entwash

7c. Gandalf the White

7d. Shadowfax

8a. The Black Gate is Closed, part 1

8b. The Black Gate is Closed, part 2

9a. The Court of Meduseld, part 1

9b. The Court of Meduseld, part 2

10a. Theoden King, part 1

10b. Theoden King, part 2

10c. The Fallen

11a. The Stables of Edoras

11b. Shieldmaiden Eowyn

12a. The Forests of Ithilien

12b. Always Ready to Help

12c. Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits

12d. The Existence of Oliphaunts

 

Act II

13a. One of the Dunedain

13b. Evenstar

14. The Wolves of Isengard

15. Warg Battle

16. Refuge at Helm's Deep

17. Voice of Saruman

18a. Breath of Life

18b. Arwen's Fate

19. The Story Foretold

20a. The Forbidden Pool

20b. Faramir's Good Counsel, part 1

20c. Faramir's Good Counsel, part 2

20d. Aragorn's Return, part 1

20e. Aragorn's Return, part 2

21a. War is Upon Us, part 1

21b. War is Upon Us, part 2

22a. "Where is the Horse and the Rider?", part 1

22b. "Where is the Horse and the Rider?", part 2

23a. The Host of the Eldar, part 1

23b. The Host of the Eldar, part 2

24a. The Breach of the Deeping Wall, part 1

24b. The Breach of the Deeping Wall, part 2

24c. The Entmoot Decides

25a. Haldir's Lament

25b. The Fellowship Challenged

25c. Master Peregrin's Plan

26a. The Last March of the Ents, part 1

26b. The Last March of the Ents, part 2

26c. Descent of the Nazgul

27a. One Last Charge

27b. Thangen I Harn

27c. Theoden Rides Forth

28a. The Tales That Really Matter

28b. Gollum's Song

28c. Lady of Rohan

28d. A Na Dhin

28e. Evenstar

28f. The Riddermark

 

Return of the King

 

Act I

1. Roots and Beginnings

2a. Journey to the Cross-Roads

2b. Return to Edoras

2c. The Chalice Passed

2d. The Green Dragon

3. Gollum's Villany

4. The Palantir

5. The Grace of Undomiel

6. The Eyes of the White Tower

7. A Coronal of Silver and Gold, part 1

8. A Coronal of Silver and Gold, part 2

9. The Lighting of the Beacons

10. Minas Tirith

11. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

12a. The Witch King

12b. Allegiance to Denethor

13a. The Parting of Sam and Frodo

13b. The Sacrifice of Faramir

14. Marshalling at Dunharrow

15. Anduril, Flame of the West

16. The Paths of the Dead

17a. Entr'acte

 

Act II

17b. The Siege of Gondor

18. Shelob's Lair

19. Grond

20. Shelob the Great

21a. The Tomb of the Steward

21b. The Battle of Pelennor Fields

21c. The Pyre of Denethor

21d. The Mumakil

22a. Dernhelm in Battle

22b. A Far Green Country

23a. The Shieldmaden of Rohan

23b. The Passing of Theoden

23c. Oaths Fulfilled

24. The Tower of Cirith Ungol

25a. The Last Debate

25b. The Land of Shadow

26. The Mouth of Sauron

27. For Frodo

28. Mount Doom

29. The Crack of Doom

30. The Eagles

31. The Fellowship Reunited

32. The Journey to the Grey Haven

33a. Days of the Ring

33b. Into the West

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

So, I decided to redo my Gondor theme in Shadow of the Past video, this time "recording" in Abbey Road Studio One, instead of AIR Lyndhurst

 

I also threw in a little surprise in the beginning based on a suggestion by Bloodboal.

 

LINK

 

@Monoverantus @Jay @Kühni 

[Chen G. 3,204]

I always thought that if that motive was to be inserted anywhere into The Lord of the Rings, a fine place for it would be into the silence after Frodo comes with his "You're late"...

[Jay 32,037]

Fun!

[Monoverantus 335]

12 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

I also threw in a little surprise in the beginning based on a suggestion by Bloodboal.

Interesting idea, but a bit too bombastic imo. I'd like to see other experiments with Hobbit themes in LotR.

[Chen G. 3,204]

That solo piano rendition from the appendices of the theme associated with Thorin would have been sweet to hear somewhere in The Return of the King: after all these many hours of the orchestra pounding in our ears, to have it subside to a piano solo, and in so doing provide a reminiscence of a motif from way back in the musical storytelling, would have been quite dramatic.

[Monoverantus 335]

Speaking of Gandalf's theme, has anyone else noticed how similar it is to a certain other wizardy theme?

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

15 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I always thought that if that motive was to be inserted anywhere into The Lord of the Rings, a fine place for it would be into the silence after Frodo comes with his "You're late"...

Done, 2 versions, video coming soon.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

Gandalf's Theme in his arrival at Bag End version 1:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18pbDhWFoCwkGkuX9DvZ9Xk3HYuXEwgw-/view?usp=share_link

 

Version 2:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/192Xj79ezGP-OGgrkqeTwwunvGyt4Knfp/view?usp=share_link

 

Version 3, this one came to me with the thought that the first appearance of his theme in LOTR could match it's last appearance in The Hobbit.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tu6FQj3x4yhF5cuWhsPXaJT2RYfa5eDO/view?usp=share_link

[Chen G. 3,204]

11 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

 

No wonder I had difficulty sorting it into any one of the theme families! 

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

Another Gondor related one, this time extending out the fragment of the Gondor theme in "The Tomb of the Steward".

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17rDsRESDf8OyCvUFKPSJX_nQPglSwR8l/view?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OVhmSZH5H9OWAV-yZ4NlXdgbQ9b9Gprw/view?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rOiBxmghAeq4EQGS6f3jqejScjzrQ1el/view?usp=sharing

[Monoverantus 335]

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

[TolkienSS 218]

I've made a sort of alternate Shore-ian Version of a ROP Numenor theme. Maybe I'll post it.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

2 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

Kinda sounds like The Mouth of Sauron

4 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

I've made a sort of alternate Shore-ian Version of a ROP Numenor theme. Maybe I'll post it.

I almost made a version of Isildur and Elendil for the FOTR prologue.

[Chen G. 3,204]

12 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

 

O mercy!

Summit of grace!

O wonder! Holy, splendourous wonder!

 

11 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

alternate Shore-ian Version of a ROP Numenor theme. Maybe I'll post it.

 

Shore has a "Numenore" theme (goddamnit, these theme names are silly!) and I played it once off of the footage of the entrance to Numenore in the show and it works quite well!

 

The theme associated with the forces of nature would have been quite amazing to hear over the deluge of Numenore. Alas...

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

@Chen G. Which theme is that?

[Chen G. 3,204]

4 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Which theme is that?

 

The one in the rarities prologue. I mean, its associated with men of the Last Alliance, who are fresh off of the boat from Numenore, so...

[Jay 32,037]

1 hour ago, Monoverantus said:

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

 

Woah that was cool! 

 

Everytime I hear Bilbo's Theme again, I am reminded how much I love it, and get annoyed all over again that PJ did not 

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

Perhaps someone could rectify that situation.... 😉🤫

[Monoverantus 335]

24 minutes ago, Jay said:

Everytime I hear Bilbo's Theme again, I am reminded how much I love it, and get annoyed all over again that PJ did not 

IIRC it's only used once in the whole trilogy right? Except on the OST.

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

5 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

IIRC it's only used once in the whole trilogy right? Except on the OST.

Pretty much, the Bullroarer scene, and the AUJ credits.

[Holko 8,222]

5 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

I love how you melded Seduction into it!

[Monoverantus 335]

I gotta hand it to you @A Farewell to Kings, this was an incredibly fun project. Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[A Farewell to Kings 3,786]

2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I gotta hand it to you @A Farewell to Kings, this was an incredibly fun project. Thanks for the inspiration!

 

I just noticed something unintentional! (I think?)

 

When Frodo enters into Bag End at night, the clarinet almost sounds like Gandalf's theme, like it's hinting that he is there.

[Jay 32,037]

On 31/03/2023 at 9:37 PM, A Farewell to Kings said:

Gandalf's Theme in his arrival at Bag End version 1:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18pbDhWFoCwkGkuX9DvZ9Xk3HYuXEwgw-/view?usp=share_link

 

Version 2:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/192Xj79ezGP-OGgrkqeTwwunvGyt4Knfp/view?usp=share_link

 

Version 3, this one came to me with the thought that the first appearance of his theme in LOTR could match it's last appearance in The Hobbit.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tu6FQj3x4yhF5cuWhsPXaJT2RYfa5eDO/view?usp=share_link

 

I don't understand what the difference in between the 3 of these.  Can you explain better?

 

 

On 01/04/2023 at 11:31 AM, A Farewell to Kings said:

Another Gondor related one, this time finishing out the theme fragment in "The Tomb of the Steward".

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17rDsRESDf8OyCvUFKPSJX_nQPglSwR8l/view?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OVhmSZH5H9OWAV-yZ4NlXdgbQ9b9Gprw/view?usp=sharing

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rOiBxmghAeq4EQGS6f3jqejScjzrQ1el/view?usp=sharing

 

I don't understand what you're doing here either, or what the difference between each version is

 

 

On 01/04/2023 at 12:14 PM, Monoverantus said:

This was actually a very fun challenge. Bilbo's theme in LotR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11dY70rj8o9mTDoH-OFP_oJ20wrs9NvWR/view?usp=sharing

 

That was fun!  It really works!  And thank you for rendering in high res instead of 360p!

 

6 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I gotta hand it to you @A Farewell to Kings, this was an incredibly fun project. Thanks for the inspiration!

 

 

Interesting ideas here - some work better than others.  Man, you work fast!