Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[TolkienSS 487]

On 21/10/2024 at 3:02 PM, VenomVeVenom said:

Seriously?

 

Yes, of course.

 

Though I'm talking about harmonic concepts, not the actual cues.

The recognizability of a harmonic concept does not depend on the orchestral scale it's applied to.

 

The cue at the Gates of Moria is a short-lived moment, while McCreary's theme is allowed to have grander moments.

 

But the bigger scale it's applied to doesn't make it a more recognizable concept.

The ascending sequence of lydian polychords (C/D) (D/E) (E/F#) as a concept is more unique and identifiable than McCreary's harmonic same-old.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

3 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Yes, of course.

 

Though I'm talking about harmonic concepts, not the actual cues.

The recognizability of a harmonic concept does not depend on the orchestral scale it's applied to.

 

The cue at the Gates of Moria is a short-lived moment, while McCreary's theme is allowed to have grander moments.

 

But the bigger scale it's applied to doesn't make it a more recognizable concept.

The ascending sequence of lydian polychords (C/D) (D/E) (E/F#) as a concept is more unique and identifiable than McCreary's harmonic same-old.

Well, when we talk about harmony, Shore DEFINITELY isn't an example of complicated harmony.

McCreary uses much more unpredictable chord progressions (as opposed to Shore's I-IV-V-I or i-VI-III-VII), and his harmonies are always less diatonic than Shore's.

This is not to diminish Shore or anything, but harmonically wise, McCreary is objectivelly more creative and less "same-old".

But as Monoverantus said in his video about Shore's Rings of Power opening, the simplicity is intentional. It's purposely simple in order to have 90+ simple themes that connect to each other instead of a handful of themes with complicated harmony that have nothing to do with each other.

[Chen G. 5,124]

1 hour ago, VenomVeVenom said:

But as Monoverantus said in his video about Shore's Rings of Power opening, the simplicity is intentional. It's purposely simple in order to have 90+ simple themes that connect to each other instead of a handful of themes with complicated harmony that have nothing to do with each other.

 

It's also part of Shore's concept for this world and its music: obviously not all the Shore score could concievably stand for diegetic music, but he still wanted it to feel OF Middle-earth in some metaphoric sense, and that entailed a lot of triadic harmonies and blocked orchestrations.

 

It also has another reason, which is I believe the reason Jackson found himself picking Shore to score the piece. I'll quote Jackson's superb biography here:

 

Quote

A choice also needed to be made about the music for the film. When creating the Animatic from the storyboard, various pieces of music had been carefully selected in order to enhance the telling of the story. Several of the films from which the temporary music track was constructed had been scored by one composer – Howard Shore.

"Even though films like Silence of the Lambs, Crash, Naked Lunch and The Fly seemed unlikely sources for music to accompany The Lord of the Rings, they worked incredibly well. Some of the more obvious choices, such as James Horner’s score for Braveheart, seemed predictable and clichéd whereas once you added Howard’s music to our pictures, they immediately became atmospheric, dark and evocative."

 

Sir Noel Coward once told David Lean: "If you're going to have a romantic scene, have it play against a bare brick wall. Otherwise, you'll have two layers of romance competing." I feel like having these very lush fantasy landscapes scored in this very lush, late-Romantic style would have done just that: it would have been putting a hat on a hat. And so the fact that Shore's harmonic language and orchestrations were NOT the usual late Romantic farrago, not only made it remarkably fresh in 2001, it also helped keep the overall effect from being too "pretty" for its own good.

[crocodile 9,168]

Yeah, having Shore's earthy and gritty sound against classic imagery definitely helped to achieve a certain sense of verisimilitude. I wasn't as much of a fan of his music from the outset* but it did certainly instantly create a sense of specific vision that wasn't like anything else in big films.

 

*To be honest, my initial skepticism might have simply been a knee-jerk reaction to Filmtracks review that lauded Shore's music in contrast to Williams' "uninspired and derivative" Philosopher's Stone.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 5,124]

3 minutes ago, crocodile said:

*To be honest, my initial skepticism might have simply been a knee-jerk reaction to Filmtracks review that lauded Shore's music in contrast to Williams' "uninspired and derivative" Philosopher's Stone.

 

I used to contrast these with Williams' scores from the period, too, but there's really no point. Yes, Williams had also done long-running series (Namely Star Wars) in a leitmotivic style, but his approach to the technique and Shore's are very different, and never have they been more diferent than in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I used to contrast these with Williams' scores from the period, too, but there's really no point. Yes, Williams had also done long-running series (Namely Star Wars) in a leitmotivic style, but his approach to the technique and Shore's are very different, and never have they been more diferent than in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

I will say, the bit in Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe, after Bilbo disappears feels a bit Pottery.

[Chen G. 5,124]

It does! That's the theme we usually call "Gandalf's Fireworks"! Goes to show what these names are good for...

 

But its less how they sound and more how they work: Shore is trying to essentially introduce you to as many of the themes as early as he can - even you can't really tell that they're there at the time. Whereas Williams in Philosopher's Stone is very careful to introduce his themes - most of which are just "settings" of the main theme in the same way that Shore has several settings of the main Hobbits tune - one by one over about 90 minutes.

 

It's a completely different way of dealing with motivic recall.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It does! That's the theme we usually call "Gandalf's Fireworks"! Goes to show what these names are good for...

 

 

Uh... That's not the bit I am talking about.

 

I am talking about 0:30

 

 

Gandalf's Fireworks that plays alongside... Gandalf's Fireworks, or the discussion thereof.

[crocodile 9,168]

40 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I used to contrast these with Williams' scores from the period, too, but there's really no point. Yes, Williams had also done long-running series (Namely Star Wars) in a leitmotivic style, but his approach to the technique and Shore's are very different, and never have they been more diferent than in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

Yeah, there is no point comparing them at all. It's just that they came out at the same time.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 5,124]

13 minutes ago, Doo_liss said:

Gandalf's Fireworks that plays alongside... Gandalf's Fireworks, or the discussion thereof.

 

They also play 0:38-1:04, and also in a Shortcut to Mushrooms.

 

It's a variant of the outline figure. In other words, yet another figuration that has to do with the playful side of the Hobbits.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

They also play 0:38-1:04, and also in a Shortcut to Mushrooms.

 

It's a variation on the outline figure. In other words, another figuration that has to do with the playful side of the Hobbits.

Where in Shortcut?

[Chen G. 5,124]

It peeks at 0:05 and then alternating with minor scales in 0:53-0:59, and then obviously this music is also reprised over the end-credits...

 

 

That Howard is one sneaky man, you see...

[VenomVeVenom 202]

1 hour ago, Doo_liss said:

Uh... That's not the bit I am talking about.

 

I am talking about 0:30

 

 

Gandalf's Fireworks that plays alongside... Gandalf's Fireworks, or the discussion thereof.

The bass staccato is very Williams' Potter indeed.

[bored 564]

I would never call the bass-line "Gandalf's Fireworks". I agree it resembles it like Monoverantus explained in his video, but I wouldn't say it's the same theme or overall idea. "Gandalf's Fireworks" has a very distinct and lyrical quality to it, whereas the bass-line in "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" is just a climbing Hobbit Outline/Skip-Beat. 

[VenomVeVenom 202]

2 hours ago, bored said:

I would never call the bass-line "Gandalf's Fireworks". I agree it resembles it like Monoverantus explained in his video, but I wouldn't say it's the same theme or overall idea. "Gandalf's Fireworks" has a very distinct and lyrical quality to it, whereas the bass-line in "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" is just a climbing Hobbit Outline/Skip-Beat. 

What?

I said I thought the bass line sounded like something Williams would do for Harry Potter.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

Just now, VenomVeVenom said:

What?

I said I thought the bass line sounded like something Williams would do for Harry Potter.

He is referring to what Chen G said.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

44 minutes ago, Doo_liss said:

He is referring to what Chen G said.

When why did he quote me?

[bored 564]

I didn't...?

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

55 minutes ago, bored said:

I didn't...?

I think he means quote in "referencing something I said" not "replying to my words on a forum" ?

[VenomVeVenom 202]

1 hour ago, bored said:

I didn't...?

Wait. For some reason I thought you did. My bad xD

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,261]

Anyone else like Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS?

[Bilbo 3,998]

4 hours ago, Code 000. Destruct. 0. said:

Anyone else like Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS?

It’s better than everything! 

[Jay 42,358]

TGP is back?

[VenomVeVenom 202]

What's TGP?

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 minute ago, VenomVeVenom said:

What's TGP?

TheGreyPilgrim

[Stark 682]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

TGP is back?

Now he’s the white pilgrim.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

6 minutes ago, Stark said:

Now he’s the white rider.

Fixed.

[Nick1Ø66 6,741]

Who?

[Monoverantus 567]

On 26/10/2024 at 7:35 PM, Chen G. said:

It does! That's the theme we usually call "Gandalf's Fireworks"! Goes to show what these names are good for...

Funny that this might be the first case of Chen giving something a "theme name" that no one else buys...

[Chen G. 5,124]

Hey, I use other people's names, just under quotation marks, like I'd use...oh, I dunno, "the blackness of death itself" (Donnington) or "Notung as Siegfried's fiery phallus" (Heise). 

[VenomVeVenom 202]

 

One of my favorite scenes from TTT! (Had to use muted trumpets for the second statement of Sauron's theme, because Musescore 4 still doesn't have a rhaita.) Warning, it's LOUD.

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 hour ago, VenomVeVenom said:

 

One of my favorite scenes from TTT! (Had to use muted trumpets for the second statement of Sauron's theme, because Musescore 4 still doesn't have a rhaita.) Warning, it's LOUD.

Apparently the rhaita was so loud, they had to record it in a separate room.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

4 minutes ago, Doo_liss said:

Apparently the rhaita was so loud, they had to record it in a separate room.

Yes. I wonder how they play it in the live to projections. 

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

@Jurassic Shark: "with earplugs..."

[Jurassic Shark 14,945]

Musicians often use earplugs.

[Doug Adams 529]

3 hours ago, Doo_liss said:

Apparently the rhaita was so loud, they had to record it in a separate room.

Specialty instruments are often recorded separately. Fiddles and whistles in LOTR commonly had individual sessions as well. Left more room for mixing choices. 

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 minute ago, Doug Adams said:

Specialty instruments are often recorded separately. Fiddles and whistles in LOTR commonly had individual sessions as well. Left more room for mixing choices. 

Such as the reverb on the Shire whistle?

[TolkienSS 487]

On 26/10/2024 at 6:52 PM, crocodile said:

Yeah, having Shore's earthy and gritty sound against classic imagery definitely helped to achieve a certain sense of verisimilitude. I wasn't as much of a fan of his music from the outset* but it did certainly instantly create a sense of specific vision that wasn't like anything else in big films.

 

*To be honest, my initial skepticism might have simply been a knee-jerk reaction to Filmtracks review that lauded Shore's music in contrast to Williams' "uninspired and derivative" Philosopher's Stone.

 

Karol

 

Well .... Philosopher's Stone, aside from the highlight cues, is.

 

LotR is one of the very few all time soundtracks that is not heavily based on classical pieces. It's a remarkable blend of classic and contemporary.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

This one turned out kind of janky (the dynamics are very bad), but I like it

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 hour ago, VenomVeVenom said:

This one turned out kind of janky (the dynamics are very bad), but I like it

Could you do one, cutting from 0:32 of Stairs of Cirith Ungol, to 1:08?

 

 

[VenomVeVenom 202]

36 minutes ago, Doo_liss said:

Could you do one, cutting from 0:32 of Stairs of Cirith Ungol, to 1:08?

 

 

I'll check it out

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 minute ago, VenomVeVenom said:

I'll check it out

Thank you.

 

I am asking, because there is some evidence that this was considered at one point.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

Just now, Doo_liss said:

Thank you.

 

I am asking, because there is some evidence that this was considered at one point.

Just one question, to see if I understand. You're asking me to recreate the section 0:32 to 1:08 of Stairs of Cirith Ungol? And match it to the film?

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

6 minutes ago, VenomVeVenom said:

Just one question, to see if I understand. You're asking me to recreate the section 0:32 to 1:08 of Stairs of Cirith Ungol? And match it to the film?

Nope, 0:00-0:32 of Stairs, into 1:08-end of your video, when it cuts to Pippin and Gandalf ascending up the levels.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

Just now, Doo_liss said:

Nope, 0:00-0:32 of Stairs, into 1:08-end of your video, when it cuts to Pippin and Gandalf ascending up the levels.

Hmm. Interesting. How do you know this was supposed to be in the film?

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

1 minute ago, VenomVeVenom said:

Hmm. Interesting. How do you know this was supposed to be in the film?

Osgiliath Invaded has parts of Grace of Undomiel in it for an earlier cut of Gandalf arriving at the same time as Faramir.

 

The OST track even places the level ascension music right after the final Gondor theme from Invaded.

[VenomVeVenom 202]

Just now, Doo_liss said:

Osgiliath Invaded has parts of Grace of Undomiel in it for an earlier cut of Gandalf arriving at the same time as Faramir.

 

The OST even has this sequence.

Well, I'm glad they changed this. The pacing would be very weird.

 

@Doo_liss
Is this it?

[TolkienSS 487]

I don't think the conversation would have taken place there. If the cut was changed, the arrival through the gates would have led directly into the ascension.

 

[Meredith McKay 7,843]

8 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I don't think the conversation would have taken place there. If the cut was changed, the arrival through the gates would have led directly into the ascension.

 

Probably (that's how it is on the OST track actually), I was just curious to hear this way.

 

Thanks @VenomVeVenom!

[VenomVeVenom 202]

5 hours ago, Doo_liss said:

Probably (that's how it is on the OST track actually), I was just curious to hear this way.

 

Thanks @VenomVeVenom!

No problem