Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

Its probably just coincidental, but I noticed a bit of similarity between Gollum scene music in ROTK:

 

Roots and Beginnings 5:56

 

Gollum's Vilainy 1:25

 

Lighting of the Beacons 0:00

 

[Chen G. 5,754]

That's what we were just talking about: Howard's all-purpose "Impediment" theme (what Doug calls "Weakness and Redemption"). It is in two separable components: (1) an arpeggio consisting of a minor triad with an added flat sixth, and sequenced a flat sixth away; (2) harmony: minor triads a flat sixth apart, sometimes retrograded.

 

This combination is one of the cornerstone of the entire score, and has many variants: There's a Dwarven version (what Doug calls "Dwarvish suffering"), there's a Thranduil version. Three variants are a melodic elaboration of this idea: the "Rivendell" theme, which takes the theme to the major mode; the "Journey" theme, which sequences it up; and Smeagol's theme.

 

Howard clearly treated Gollum's Song as a kind of development and apotheosis for Smeagol's theme, because afterwards in Return of the King he slims it down to a figure closer to the original arpeggio, still with the associated chord progresion. That's what you're hearing in all those places.

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

What I find interesting, is that the unused music for Faramir's dream/vision/memory of Boromir in the boat, sounds vaguely Gollum's Song like.

 

(And the fact that in the credits it (Gollum's Song) segues into Eowyn's theme, there is something that strikes me as "profound" somehow for some reason I can't quite figure out)

[Chen G. 5,754]

1 hour ago, Little Ghost said:

What I find interesting, is that the unused music for Faramir's dream/vision/memory of Boromir in the boat, sounds vaguely Gollum's Song like.

 

Like I said, Howard sometimes likes to reverse the chords so instead of Am-Fm we get Fm-Am. It's still third-related so it has that "dark magic" sound.

 

We get those in Gollum's Song, we get it in Faramir's dream, we get it in the Rings of Power opening titles. In The War of the Rohirrim, Gallagher uses this reversed form for Freca, then the definitive form for Wulf.

 

So it's an idea that runs through the entire "Howard Shore and Co." oeuvre. But it's very much a part of the "Impediment" theme.

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

minor triads a flat sixth apart, sometimes retrograded.

 

This is the motif I have labelled as NF in my ancient document (for "Nameless Fear", since one of its earliest appearances is around the time Galadriel the narrator mentions "whispers of a nameless fear" in the prologue); when the second chord is a major third higher than the first I've denoted it NF *. You often find these two-chord motifs (of which NF seems to be the most common in The Lord of the Rings) concatenated or stacked into longer sequences; when you concatenate NF with NF * the result is a three-chord figure which creates the effect of a corrupted chordal Fellowship nucleus. This is heard, for example, when Aragorn steps into view after Frodo's fall on Amon Hen. (One can also hear a shadow of this corrupted Fellowship nucleus in the NFs which begin Sméagol's theme.)

 

The variant of NF which has the two chords separated by a minor third rather than major I labelled SM (for "Sleepless Malice", though I don't recall it being heard around the time that Legolas uses that phrase; I think I just wanted another poetic-sounding term for something wicked). This one appears less frequently than NF, but still quite a bit. Whereas NF has an abstract and somewhat surreal quality to it, SM sounds (to me, anyway) more raw and vulnerable, suggesting a more immediate peril. There are major SM showcases in the first half of The Fellowship of the Ring as the threats manifest themselves more concretely, first with Saruman's treachery and then with Aragorn's revelation about the nature of the Black Riders.

 

The journey theme which is built from NF chords and the augmented arpeggio melody ("The Quest of Mount Doom" in my document; I take it that's Doug's "The Journey There"), in its final appearance when it has degenerated to repeated "Mount Doom" growls, has one of its NFs (the middle one of the three) SMified, increasing the sense of instability and immediate danger.

 

2:51 - 3:14

 

 

Incidentally, the particular way that the augmented arpeggios combine with the NF/SMs here quite brazenly expose this material as a cousin of the Rivendell theme...

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

2 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

There are major SM showcases in the first half of The Fellowship of the Ring as the threats manifest themselves more concretely, first with Saruman's treachery and then with Aragorn's revelation about the nature of the Black Riders.

 

 

Well, the latter is tracked music from the former and is what was put on the CR. The Rarities has the piece as recorded.

 

Does it also show up in Council of Elrond right when Boromir escalates things? ("What happens when Sauron takes back what is his!!??")

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

4 hours ago, Little Ghost said:

Well, that's because the CR version is tracked music from the first instance. The Rarities has the piece as recorded.

 

I don't quite follow. Which piece do you mean? (And what is "The Rarities"?)

 

My references are to appearances in the actual film (with the possible exception of things in the clips posted...).

 

4 hours ago, Little Ghost said:

Does it also show up in Council of Elrond right when Boromir escalates things?

 

Yeah, there are repeated SM *s there, followed by stacked SM * – NF *s right as everything kicks off.

[VenomVeVenom 224]

23 minutes ago, Little Ghost said:

Does it also show up in Council of Elrond right when Boromir escalates things? ("What happens when Sauron takes back what is his!!??")

Yes, that’s because "SM" is part of a technique Shore used frequently in FotR but mostly abandoned in the later scores: essentially, he’d climb through minor chords spaced by alternating minor and major thirds, something like this:

 

 

He used this a lot for moments of danger in FotR.

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

4 hours ago, VenomVeVenom said:

Yes, that’s because "SM" is part of a technique Shore used frequently in FotR but mostly abandoned in the later scores...

 

I also have quite a few listed for The Two Towers (including, for instance, "SM * thirteen times" building up to the bomber at Helm's Deep), though perhaps not used in as emphatic or exclamatory way as in The Fellowship of the Ring. But in The Return of the King it seems to be very much downgraded.

[VenomVeVenom 224]

3 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

I also have quite a few listed for The Two Towers (including, for instance, "SM * thirteen times" building up to the bomber at Helm's Deep), though perhaps not used in as emphatic or exclamatory way as in The Fellowship of the Ring. But in The Return of the King it seems to be very much downgraded.

I mean the ascending minor chords thing. Yeah, the SM* as chords themselves still appear in TTT, but the ascending minor chords separated by minor-major thirds don't appear much after FotR IIRC

In Helm's deep it's just the same two chords (usually Em-Gm) over and over again with different inversions

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

2 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

I don't quite follow. Which piece do you mean? (And what is "The Rarities"?)

 

 

The Rarities Archive disc that came with Doug's Book

 

CR 1:45-2:15: 

 

You can even faintly hear the choir that was dialed out (which is presented on the OST track The Treason of Isengard)

 

Rarities Archive 0:00-0:40:

 

 

 

One thing that always bothered me, is that Doug claims the music for the Door of Durin opening is the Moria theme, when it just sounds like the regular old ascending Shore cluster of doom to me, sort of like the ending of Dangerous Passes.

[Chen G. 5,754]

8 hours ago, Little Ghost said:

Does it also show up in Council of Elrond right when Boromir escalates things? ("What happens when Sauron takes back what is his!!??")

I don’t want to exaggerate this, but you probably can’t look through three lines of music and not alight upon some manifestation of this chordal device. It’s everywhere.

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

9 hours ago, Little Ghost said:

The Rarities Archive disc that came with Doug's Book

 

Ah yeah. I remember that it was years before I even realised there was a CD there.

 

It would be interesting to hear the scene with the original score, but I like the tracked version. It has such an emphatic quality that it feels like a key structural component of the film, which I find it hard to imagine the original version replicating.

 

9 hours ago, Little Ghost said:

One thing that always bothered me, is that Doug claims the music for the Door of Durin opening is the Moria theme, when it just sounds like the regular old ascending Shore cluster of doom to me, sort of like the ending of Dangerous Passes.

 

The music for the opening of the door is too similar to the Dwarrowdelf theme to be written off as a mere coincidence, I think.

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don’t want to exaggerate this, but you probably can’t look through three lines of music and not alight upon some manifestation of this chordal device. It’s everywhere.

 

Are you talking about the molecular two-chord figure or the extended form where the chords keep ascending/descending? (And by "three lines of music" do you mean The Lord of the Rings music specifically as opposed to music in general?)

[Chen G. 5,754]

11 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

Are you talking about the molecular two-chord figure or the extended form where the chords keep ascending/descending?

 

The idea comes in several forms as we've discussed: minor triads a flat sixth apart (the definitive form, usually on A minor), minor triads a major third apart (so, retrograded), or sequences of ascending minor triads a minor/major third apart.

 

All three are ubiquitous through the Tolkien scores by Howard Shore and Co.

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

45 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

Ah yeah. I remember that it was years before I even realised there was a CD there.

 

It would be interesting to hear the scene with the original score, but I like the tracked version. It has such an emphatic quality that it feels like a key structural component of the film, which I find it hard to imagine the original version replicating.

 

 

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

minor triads a flat sixth apart (the definitive form), minor triads a major third apart

 

Right, so these are what I was denoting NF and NF *, respectively.

 

But then there's also the similar but distinct figure where the two chords are separated by an interval of a minor third (or, in your phrasing, a sixth for the definitive form and a minor third for the retrograde one) which is what I meant by SM and SM *.

 

Both of these types permeate the entire score, the former kind being roughly twice as abundant as the latter, but not uniformly.

 

Then there are various ways in which these (and sometimes other two-chord molecules) are built into larger figures, with the most prominent being the third motif that you mentioned: sequences of chords strictly ascending (or sometimes strictly descending) in thirds. You could say these are near ubiqitous in The Fellowship of the Ring, but not so much after. They can be found in both The Two Towers and The Return of the King, though maybe most often in an incidental/accidental manner.

[Chen G. 5,754]

Don't we hear those ascending minor chords in "My Dear Frodo", as a recollection of the Moria scenes?

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

At the end?

[Chen G. 5,754]

 

The "Moria voices"

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Don't we hear those ascending minor chords in "My Dear Frodo", as a recollection of the Moria scenes?

We hear those (or similar) all over those scores.

 

Underneath that choir

 

Right prior to the Dwarvish Suffering music in MDF

 

Possibly in the opening of An Ancient Enemy?

 

The Trollshaws (sped up, shortened)

 

Warg-scouts

 

Arrival at Rivendell

 

In the film version of Out of the Frying Pan

I believe there is a fragmented hint at one that was edited out of Feast of Starlight:

 

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

40 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The "Moria voices"

 

I hear the allusion to Moria music which, in The Fellowship of the Ring, has stacked minor chords ascending by thirds – but I don't hear it actually doing that here.

 

On the other hand, this final passage is in precisely that form.

 

SM *  —  NF *  —  SM *  —  NF *  :

 

 

[Chen G. 5,754]

1 minute ago, Glóin the Dark said:

On the other hand, this final passage is in precisely that form.

 

Yes, that's the "Dwarven" form of the impediment theme ("Dwarvish suffering").

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

That shows up at the end if Flies and Spiders correct? 8:23 of Flies and Spiders = 7:46 MDF?

[Chen G. 5,754]

10 minutes ago, Little Ghost said:

That shows up at the end if Flies and Spiders correct?

 

I think you're possibly confusing this figure with a Thranduil version?

 

The Dwarven form does crop-up a lot in An Unexpected Journey. Some the appearances are done in a Hobbit-y style so they don't immediately register as anything to do with the Dwarves:

 

Old Friends, 4:36 ff (Gandalf leaves to go get the Dwarves)

 

 

An Unexpected Party, 0:06 ff

 

 

Troll Hoard, 0:45 ff (The implication that the riches of the Troll hoard remind the Dwarves of the hoard of Erebor):

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

There is a melodic similarity (My Dear Frodo 7:46; Flies and Spiders 8:32). I don't know the The Hobbit music so have no idea whether this is a thing. It doesn't seem to have any essential connection to the harmonic motifs we were talking about, since they aren't around in the Flies and Spiders version from what I can tell.

 

Edit: Ah, there's the same type of figure in A Troll-hoard (0:56).

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

20 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

An Unexpected Party, 0:06 ff

 

 

 

 

I was told back in the day, that isn't the Dwarven Suffering. I can't remember who it was... @KK perhaps?

[Chen G. 5,754]

I don't know if we're necessarily talking about the same gesture. An Unexpected Party has a kind of refrain structure. Each refrain consists of:

 

1. An ascending scale concluding on a perfect fifth: This (-0:10) is also repeated when the Dwarves are introduced to Beorn and then incorporated into the "Dwarrowdelf" theme in Fellowship of the Ring.
2. This pizzicato figure (0:10-0:17) , which to my ears sounds like the Dwarven form of the Impediment theme.
3. The bassline of the "Folk" Hobbit setting (The "two-step" figure) "Um-pa-pah" (0:17-0:29).

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

I was referring to the low end stuff, it's sounded to me like a fragmented Dwarven Suffering back in the day.

[Chen G. 5,754]

We need someone with a better ear. Yo @VenomVeVenom!

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

21 minutes ago, Little Ghost said:

I was told back in the day, that isn't the Dwarven Suffering.

 

I suspect you were misinformed. These excerpts are clearly all related.

[VenomVeVenom 224]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

We need someone with a better ear. Yo @VenomVeVenom!

Hey! What's going on? 

[Chen G. 5,754]

My Dear Frodo, 7:21 ff

 

 

Strikes me and Gloin as the same figure as An Unexpected Party, 0:09 ff:

 

 

Almost a "Dwarven" version of "Weakness and Redemption."

 

Yay or nay?

[Monoverantus 572]

On 28/08/2025 at 10:04 AM, Chen G. said:

It's surely not Marrilyn: "A extra weary version [of "The Journey There"], so weary it can't quite complete its phrasing, is heard after Frodo and Sam, now clothed in Orc armor, are contemplating having to go down amongst the troops of Mordor's army. They don't think there's any hope but they have to do it anyhow."

 

It's Eric Rawlins: "Frodo and Sam leave the Cirith Ungol tower and enter Mordor [variant]. It is interesting that we should hear Gollum's theme at this point; my guess is that it is here to remind us that Gollum has not gone away and is still on their trail."

Seems like the discussion has left this topic, but I just wanted to add that these are talking about two different moments, 3:25 and 3:55.

 

[Chen G. 5,754]

Evidentally, we do!

[VenomVeVenom 224]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

My Dear Frodo, 7:21 ff

 

 

Strikes me and Gloin as the same figure as An Unexpected Party, 0:09 ff:

 

 

Almost a "Dwarven" version of "Weakness and Redemption."

 

Yay or nay?

Hmmm...

I think the second one is more of a callback to that mysterious style Shore used in FotR, in the scene when Gandalf visits Bag End (right after "What about very old friends..."). I don’t think the two are directly related, but the first one does feels like a Dwarven Weakness and Redemption idea.

[Chen G. 5,754]

2 minutes ago, VenomVeVenom said:

I think the second one is more of a callback to that mysterious style Shore used in FotR, in the scene when Gandalf visits Bag End (right after "What about very old friends...").

 

Right. I keep on forgetting about that: a kind of augmentation of the bassline of the Hobbits theme (Doug's "Hobbit Outline").

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

Just gonna drop the bit excised from the album here:

 

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,727]

I've just listened to all these excerpts again and broken them down into component molecules, and there's no doubt in my mind that the figure in An Unexpected Party (beginning 0:10) is directly related to that in My Dear Frodo (7:22). Just listen to them side by side; they're even in the same key!

 

When I say "directly related", I don't mean "the same". The one in An Unexpected Party feels gestational as a form of the theme, as well as incorporating other elements.

 

The key differences are that the arpeggiated melodic figure should have a certain rhythmic character in the developed version (whereby the second and third notes of the arpeggio are shorter, for example), whereas An Unexpected Party has the arpeggios played straight (all notes of equal length), as sometimes heard in hobbity music. And the fully developed chord sequence is, in my notation from above,

 

SM *  —  NF *  —  SM *  —  NF *

 

while An Unexpected Party has a more meandering sequence of SM and NF based intervals.

 

What exactly is "Dwarven Weakness and Redemption" again?

 

[TolkienSS 513]

On 28/08/2025 at 9:03 PM, Little Ghost said:

What I find interesting, is that the unused music for Faramir's dream/vision/memory of Boromir in the boat, sounds vaguely Gollum's Song like.

 

(And the fact that in the credits it (Gollum's Song) segues into Eowyn's theme, there is something that strikes me as "profound" somehow for some reason I can't quite figure out)

 

That would be just good composition.

 

Two Towers is the most understated and elegant masterpiece.

The way all settings and colours flow in and out without feeling forced or contrieved is extraordinary.

 

 

[bored 587]

It's interesting because it's not normally my favorite score. I love Return of the King because of the flawless finale and the grand scale that's been built up since Fellowship, but there really is something intimate, intricate, and elegant about Two Towers (minus the reused Shire statement in the beginning with Sam and Frodo and the ending with Merry and Pippin). The use of Gollum's themes especially is so subtle and tragically beautiful. 

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

3 minutes ago, bored said:

 the reused Shire statement in the beginning with Sam and Frodo and the ending with Merry and Pippin)

Interestingly, that statement was in the original version of Tales That Really Matter/Samwise the Brave as well!!

 

and the first appearance was a rewrite of the choral piece that is on the Rarities

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

On 08/01/2025 at 7:09 PM, Monoverantus said:

I listened to that and still don't hear it.

They are definitely there, I just had a go with the updated string models.

 

 

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

@Chen G. @VenomVeVenom @Monoverantus

In the commentaries, Peter Jackson mentions that the Evenstar flashback, was at one point going to be placed earlier in the film, before the scene with Gandalf and Aragorn discussing the Rohan, and Frodo's quest.

The LOTR symphony also has an clean opening of the Rivendell arpeggios from the sequence.

Also interestingly, one of the SFX shot boards seen in the EE Appendices seems to indicated that the scene of Frodo and Sam at the Black Gate was at one point at a later place in the film, approximately in the space it occupies on the OST.

and @Jim Ware has mentioned that the first three reels had a lot of recutting.

Here is a quick video that gives a quick idea of how that may have looked:
 

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

Unused choir from Lighting of the Beacons from Return of the king ripped from the L2P added in after remixing it to stereo with MVsep:
   

 

 

[TolkienSS 513]

The Pelennor version should have choir, I find the Rohan version fine without.

[Jay 44,810]

Was this choir recorded at the film sessions and just not restored on the TCR release, or never recorded at all?

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

20 minutes ago, Jay said:

Was this choir recorded at the film sessions and just not restored on the TCR release, or never recorded at all?

Pretty sure @Jim Ware said it was not recorded.

[Jim Ware 612]

On 10/01/2026 at 9:11 PM, The Score Cleaner said:

Pretty sure @Jim Ware said it was not recorded.

It was written, but I've not found any evidence to suggest that it was recorded.

[The Score Cleaner 9,292]

Using the choir model, I was able to get the unused Parth Galen Nazgul choir without Saruman chanting over it ( by using a different source, the Prologue previs.
   

@Monoverantus @Jim Ware @Chen G. @BloodBoal @Jay @Incanus @Barnald @Bofur01 @enderdrag64

[Jay 44,810]

Very good!