Michael Giacchino's Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016) - 2022 Expanded Edition now available

[KK 3,307]

-

[crocodile 8,000]

And the destruction of the Starkiller base gave us yet another kick ass version. You can never go wrong with this theme.

 

Karol

[Lockdown 238]

1 minute ago, KK said:

 

That's a bit of a directionless cover, isn't it?

What irks me is a lot of the rhythms aren't correct.

[KK 3,307]

I just realized that it was a cover of the actual cue. I wonder why he chose that one instead of any of the actual themes or the suites.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, crocodile said:

And the destruction of the Starkiller base gave us yet another kick ass version. You can never go wrong with this theme.

 

Karol

 

That heraldic trumpet! Breathtaking!

 

However I am far less impressed with JW's use of the theme in ROTS.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Just now, crocodile said:

And the destruction of the Starkiller base gave us yet another kick as version.

 

Karol

That one might actually be my new favorite rendition.  

 

34 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I was actually more fine with Gia using the established themes than doing the so-called "knock off" versions of them. Like the Imperial March that isnt, or the SW theme that isn't stated.

I honestly wish they had gone the Thomas Newman's Skyfall route.  A largely new and sparser take with a few nods sprinkled in (near the end of the film preferably).  Giacchino's pseudo-Williams music only invites negative comparisons.  

[Jay 37,339]

What JW did with the Force Theme in ROTS kind of confused me for the most.

 

Then he turned around and came up with these FANTASTIC new arrangements for TFA, like the Starkiller exploding especially, and I like the one in the end credits too

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Just now, Jay said:

I like the one in the end credits too

I've changed my mind.  That one is my new favorite.

[crocodile 8,000]

Just now, Stefancos said:

 

That heraldic trumpet! Breathtaking!

 

However I am far less impressed with JW's use of the theme in ROTS.

What about those?

 

 

 

Karol

[Jay 37,339]

Just now, Not Mr. Big said:

I've changed my mind.  That one is my new favorite.

 

That track is like the best film music track of all the 2010s

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apples and oranges really. Star Wars does have a leitmotif style. James Bond does not. And again. I didn't mind Gia's use of those themes as much as i minded his imitation versions..

 

The fact that the film features both probably means they weren't completely sure in what direction to go, so they went both ways.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Just now, Jay said:

 

That track is like the best film music track of all the 2010s

It is.  

[Jay 37,339]

It's probably my favorite end credits arrangement of all time, then pairing it with the brilliant The Jedi Steps... amazing.

[Will 2,215]

Haha @crocodile, I was literally about to post those exact bits. 

 

Terrific! I love many of the prequels' Force theme variations!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,339]

Yes @BloodBoal that version is amazing!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

What JW did with the Force Theme in ROTS kind of confused me for the most.

 

He had all these very fanfaric versions with loads of bells and whistles and patina. It kinda robbed the theme of its inate, austere power.

 

Perhaps it was done to show the Jedi as being pompous and blind. Perhaps Williams was just trying to breathe live into a very poor film. I listened to the score yesterday and I'm still not sure about it. It's the one Williams score where the use of the well known SW themes does almost nothing for me. Save the version of the Force Theme in the first track, which I do like.

 

He returned to form with TFA though in that regard.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

5 minutes ago, crocodile said:

What about those?

 

 

 

Karol

Not a big fan of that one.  Too dorky.  

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

1 hour ago, artguy360 said:

Its hard for me to understand why one would think an Imperial March parody is better than March of the Resistance which has its own clear melodic identity and also fits comfortably in the Star Wars musical canon.

 

So because it's written in a similar style, it's a parody? With the discussion of new Star Wars films being made, people are always freaking out about the mere thought of somebody but Williams scoring them because there is the slightest danger of it not sounding like JW. And now suddenly it becomes parody when a good composer like Giacchino emulates the sound?

 

How does his Imperial theme not have a clear melodic identity?

March of the Resistance fits in the canon because it's Williams, not because it's very original or typical Star Wars. And there really is no reason to hate on Giacchino's theme because Giacchino is not John Williams, but emulates his music, which everybody and their grandma wanted and expected from SW composers that are not JW. 

 

I don't want to know How many would have hated on Giacchino had he really just used the Imperial themes of JW. That lazy fuck.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It was too good for Williams to ever release to the public!

[Jay 37,339]

You didn't hear the OST before you saw the film?

[Will 2,215]

How do you guys think Giacchino's score was treated in the film?

 

Anyone notice tracking or other messy stuff? 

 

It's very interesting to consider how Giacchino scoring this so late in many ways could result in a more "old-fashioned" process, where you get a pretty final cut and write one version of the score (as opposed to, say, the TFA process).

 

Of course, though, Edwards still had plenty of time to chop the score to pieces if he wanted to, although I certainly didn't notice this. 

 

But at the very least you'd think Gia's process must have been much "smoother" than, say, JNH's on Fantastic Beasts, where he had to do dozens of rewrites for many cues. Here I assume it was much more of the "traditional" JW style -- although I assume there must have been a temp track, that being one big difference?

[TheUlyssesian 2,477]

I think Johnny doesn't really have absolute control over these things. If the director says... "and Oh by the way, this is a really epic moment, like totally epic, and I want this really cool awesome version of the force theme here, you know like really badass and stuff" what will Johnny do? He can't beat the director over the head with his conduction baton.

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

5 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

So because it's written in a similar style, it's a parody? With the discussion of new Star Wars films being made, people are always freaking out about the mere thought of somebody but Williams scoring them because there is the slightest danger of it not sounding like JW. And now suddenly it becomes parody when a good composer like Giacchino emulates the sound?

 

How does his Imperial theme not have a clear melodic identity?

March of the Resistance fits in the canon because it's Williams, not because it's very original or typical Star Wars. And there really is no reason to hate on Giacchino's theme because Giacchino is not John Williams, but emulates his music, which everybody and their grandma wanted and expected from SW composers that are not JW. 

 

I think you (accidentally) nailed it.

 

The March of The Resistance was written by JW for the use in a Star Wars score. That, by its very definition, makes it more Star Wars than anything any composer could ever contribute to Star Wars, imo.

 

The thing is. Unlike Star Trek, Bond etc which has had many composers over the years. For me Star Wars music has only ever been associated with a single person, a single musical voice. 

 

Star Wars is John Williams, even more then it is George Lucas (again IMO).

I'm not sure a film carrying the SW name but not a score by JW will ever truly be a Star Wars film. Even if it will be better than the Prequels (and it will be hard to make films that are worse)

[Will 2,215]

4 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think Johnny doesn't really have absolute control over these things. If the director says... "and Oh by the way, this is a really epic moment, like totally epic, and I want this really cool awesome version of the force theme here, you know like really badass and stuff" what will Johnny do? He can't beat the director over the head with his conduction baton.

 

 

 

Ah, that's an interesting point. Maybe JW gets "pushed" into doing strange things with themes that initially had very clear cut meanings?

[Lockdown 238]

I feel like the track Rogue One is very similar to the style of The Resistance's theme.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its not the style. Its the quality.

[Jay 37,339]

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I'm not sure a film carrying the SW name but not a score by JW will ever truly be a Star Wars film.

 

 

You mean like Rogue One?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes.

 

You have seen it right? It didnt read a review by you? Did you like it?

 

TFA for all its flaws still felt like a real SW film to me. Mostly because of the score and the person who composed it.

[artguy360 1,843]

14 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

So because it's written in a similar style, it's a parody? With the discussion of new Star Wars films being made, people are always freaking out about the mere thought of somebody but Williams scoring them because there is the slightest danger of it not sounding like JW. And now suddenly it becomes parody when a good composer like Giacchino emulates the sound?

 

How does his Imperial theme not have a clear melodic identity?

March of the Resistance fits in the canon because it's Williams, not because it's very original or typical Star Wars. And there really is no reason to hate on Giacchino's theme because Giacchino is not John Williams, but emulates his music, which everybody and their grandma wanted and expected from SW composers that are not JW. 

 

I don't want to know How many would have hated on Giacchino had he really just used the Imperial themes of JW. That lazy fuck.

Its not just written in a similar style, it uses the same beat, and yet is too busy for its own good and in its concert arrangement the main melody is obscured by too many bells and whistles for the first minute or so. The cue wants to be the Imperial March without quoting it but comes off like a Spaceballs version of Star Wars music, especially towards the end of the suite cue. I think Gia continues to struggle with big cues. Everything is either too over the top, straining, or just not communicating a whole lot. For example, in the suite cue, after the initial rush of brass and percussion the music goes quiet with just strings (almost like the b section of the theme) but the music accomplishes nothing when it goes quiet. I think the form is trying to mirror the Imperial March concert arrangement where the main motif is carried by strings while the rest of the orchestra slowly comes back into play but in that case the strings play to a fast rhythm and act as a fun bridge between big statements of the Imperial March motif.

 

 The New Imperial March is characteristic of Gia's thematic writing where he struggles with clear melodic identification. The theme doesn't have that effortless or inevitable quality that JW often talks about and I think its in the main motif itself and its progression. Its definitely bad guy music but again comes across as corny, particularly in its concert suite cue.

[Jay 37,339]

We saw it Thursday night, I didn't like it, I'll probably write something tomorrow at work

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I cant say i disliked it. It rather left me cold.

[Simon McBride 113]

I watched the film last night, but I haven't listened to the soundtrack by itself yet. In the film, I didn't really like most of the original themes. They were alright as themes, but I feel like they didn't match the tone of the film.

[KK 3,307]

It's fun. Just kind of empty. Like a good weekend flick.

[Will 2,215]

1 hour ago, Will said:

How do you guys think Giacchino's score was treated in the film?

 

Anyone notice tracking or other messy stuff? 

 

It's very interesting to consider how Giacchino scoring this so late in many ways could result in a more "old-fashioned" process, where you get a pretty final cut and write one version of the score (as opposed to, say, the TFA process).

 

Of course, though, Edwards still had plenty of time to chop the score to pieces if he wanted to, although I certainly didn't notice this. 

 

But at the very least you'd think Gia's process must have been much "smoother" than, say, JNH's on Fantastic Beasts, where he had to do dozens of rewrites for many cues. Here I assume it was much more of the "traditional" JW style -- although I assume there must have been a temp track, that being one big difference?

 

I just want to add to this a couple things:

 

J.J. Abrams locked picture for TFA at midnight on Nov. 3 (before a premiere of Dec. 14). The RO premiere was Dec. 10, and according to this June 2016 EW article describing Lucasfilm's plans for the reshoots and restructured schedule, picture lock was scheduled for mid-August, with scoring set to begin in September (strangely, that article says TFA locked in October, but I'll trust the November date for now). This schedule came from back when Desplat was still involved.

 

Williams started composing for TFA around the start of 2015, long before picture locked. The recording sessions started on June 1, with the final one on Nov. 14, a week before the sound mix was finished on the morning of Nov. 21 (http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2015/11/22/j-j-abrams-wraps-final-mix-on-star-wars-the-force-awakens-flies-to-n-j/). 

 

But, if the mid-August date ended up being when RO picture was actually locked, then by the time Giacchino signed on in mid-September and saw the film for the first time, he was seeing a complete locked cut! The only things missing would be some special effects and the complete sound mix! Drastically different than what JW had to do with TFA! Much less time, but also no changing cut. 

 

But, of course, the Desplat schedules, both pre- and post- reshoots craziness, were very different! We know they wanted Desplat to record in September after the reshoots happened, but I wonder what the original plan was. We do know that he started work on the film around spring 2016 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJwvFJmqzwY). 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

2 minutes ago, Hawmy said:

I watched the film last night, but I haven't listened to the soundtrack by itself yet. In the film, I didn't really like most of the original themes. They were alright as themes, but I feel like they didn't match the tone of the film.

That's why I wish we could hear Desplat's score. I bet it was less Star Wars like and probably darker in tone and less over the top in style but man would it be an interesting listen, at least initially. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

On 17.12.2016 at 4:15 PM, crocodile said:

Want to read my honest opinion? No? I will state it anyway. I'm bit tired of The Imperial March. Great theme, yeah. But it's just getting on my nerves sometimes very much in the same way as My Heart Will Go On and Everything I Do I Do It For You. You can't have a single JW concert without it. And it is hardly one of his best compositions, technically.

 

I will never tire of the Imperial March. It's perhaps not one of Williams's best compositions (because it's pretty much straightforward, but it's still brilliantly done, especially the middle section), but it's one of his greatest themes.

 

But as far as film usage goes, ESB introduced it and at the same time all but killed it by using it in every shot related to the Empire (even though they're all different and great variations). For ROTJ, Williams already used much restraint with the theme, and preferred more subdued settings of it. You can't plaster it all all over a film a second time, but I still welcome a handful of obvious statements.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Agreed BB. TFA just has the advantage of new characters (less shallow ones at that) and narrative to explore. 

 

Rogue One is no great film by any means, but it does lay groundwork for more expansive storytelling in the universe.

[Lockdown 238]

Does anyone think Abrams entered the Star Wars world to get Giacchino into the franchise to compose for the rest of the spin-offs?

[Quintus 5,399]

10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Heard the score.

 

The themes are weak as crap, especially for Giacchino. Most of them anyway. But I would easily prefer "Imperial Suite" over "March Of The Resistance" or the material done by Williams for the bad guys in TFA, which feel really like lukewarm copies of the stuff when it was written first by him, which was many many many years ago.

 

March of the Resistance > The Hobbit scores. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

15 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

March of the Resistance > The Hobbit scores. 

 

Agreed! 100%

[karelm 2,912]

4 hours ago, Will said:

 

I didn't remember it either from the film but it turns out it was subtly used there:

 

 

Right at 0:13. 

Ahh, good catch.

3 hours ago, crocodile said:

What about those?

 

 

 

Karol

My favorite version is this:

The ending is so transformative and the emotional range of the ending scenes is so powerful.

[Loert 2,511]

3 hours ago, Lockdown said:

 

 

Yikes, these guys arrange fast! 

 

22 hours ago, Will said:

Love this!

 

 

So hopeful and "epic," for lack of a better word, particularly IMO when you think of the scene it underscores. It's the start of the transition from terror and chillingness to hopeful nostalgia. Very "Star Wars."

 

The opening and the Imperial March statement remind me of Confrontation with Count Dooku and Finale:

 

 

[gkgyver 1,645]

2 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Its not just written in a similar style, it uses the same beat, and yet is too busy for its own good and in its concert arrangement the main melody is obscured by too many bells and whistles for the first minute or so. The cue wants to be the Imperial March without quoting it but comes off like a Spaceballs version of Star Wars music, especially towards the end of the suite cue. I think Gia continues to struggle with big cues. Everything is either too over the top, straining, or just not communicating a whole lot. For example, in the suite cue, after the initial rush of brass and percussion the music goes quiet with just strings (almost like the b section of the theme) but the music accomplishes nothing when it goes quiet. I think the form is trying to mirror the Imperial March concert arrangement where the main motif is carried by strings while the rest of the orchestra slowly comes back into play but in that case the strings play to a fast rhythm and act as a fun bridge between big statements of the Imperial March motif.

 

 The New Imperial March is characteristic of Gia's thematic writing where he struggles with clear melodic identification. The theme doesn't have that effortless or inevitable quality that JW often talks about and I think its in the main motif itself and its progression. Its definitely bad guy music but again comes across as corny, particularly in its concert suite cue.

 

"Same beat"? Both are marches, so of course they use the same beat.

It's a march, it's the same beat, it mirrors Williams writing, and it has a B section. So it's a parody. Right.

 

Ironically, wasn't there a thread recently more or less complaining there are no bridges anymore in themes today? This board is better than live comedy.

[KK 3,307]

Marches are not identitcal in beats! But yes, Giacchino's Imeprial theme shares the Imperial March's characteristic rhythm, an intentional gesture obviously.

 

My problem with is more with it's generic construction. It's boring and uninspired, and when integrated into the underscore, amateurish.

[artguy360 1,843]

5 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

"Same beat"? Both are marches, so of course they use the same beat.

It's a march, it's the same beat, it mirrors Williams writing, and it has a B section. So it's a parody. Right.

 

Ironically, wasn't there a thread recently more or less complaining there are no bridges anymore in themes today? This board is better than live comedy.

It comes down to Giacchino being a less talented, less skilled composer than JW which is hardly an insult considering JW is literally a once in a generation talent. The new Imperial March absolutely reeks of parody it is so close to the Imperial March without being it that it feels like Gia was trying to avoid copyright violation while coming as close as possible. It's a form of imitation that is pedestrian. And I think it's an example of how Giacchino has not grown throughout his past several scores. Maybe he's overworked but he isn't developing his talent, at least as far as his music demonstrates. This theme has a boring b-section, intentional copying of JW in its percussive backing, and a ton of poorly written implementations throughout the actual film. This is all my opinion and you don't have to agree with it, but you shouldn't act like a child or take it personally that Gia's score is not well liked by myself or anyone else on this board. 

[Jay 37,339]

1 hour ago, Lockdown said:

Does anyone think Abrams entered the Star Wars world to get Giacchino into the franchise to compose for the rest of the spin-offs?

 

No.

[mrbellamy 6,277]

2 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

I find it funny to see people who praised TFA say that Rogue One is rather meh, when really, both film are about the same quality. The only things that were better in TFA were the score and the new characters, which were given better development. But other than that, TFA isn't a particularly remarkable film. It's a rather safe, by-the-numbers movie that doesn't offer truly memorable moments, or anything.

Sure, Rogue One may be a bit more flawed and really suffers from not developing its characters enough, but visually it's more interesting, it tries to do a bit more new things with the universe, has more memorable beats, etc.

 

Basically, I'd put it this way: on one side, we have a well-rounded but really safe movie, and on the other, we have a more flawed but also a bit more "daring" film. And between the two, I prefer the latter, if only because I'm convinced that with just 15 to 20 added minutes just focused on the characters (and I'm sure these scenes were shot!), to make us care about them more, you could end up with a really strong film. Add a Desplat score, and you're good to go!

 

Yeah but that's just to say there's something equally kinda silly about the people who thought TFA was meh (or even terrible) now calling this one great.

 

I dunno, I'm not even too sure Rogue One offers all that much more of visual interest, besides a few strong concepts like Whitaker in the sandstorm. Plus to me any sense of real "daring" it might have had (mainly in the last 20 minutes) was diluted by lack of any emotional impact in those developments. I agree that it would be interesting to know how much of that was informed by scenes left on the cutting room floor.....as it is it's pretty by-the-numbers in its own way, whereas I found Force Awakens stronger when it counted. There was nothing in Rogue One that really surprised me like those nearly 10 full seconds of Driver in silent conflict in the "torn apart" scene.