The Final Verdicts: Was This Music in TFA Trailers/TV Spots Williams?

[Will 2,049]

It's been a while now since TFA was released. And even longer still since the marketing was in full swing with trailers and TV spots. With the benefit of now knowing what the actual film score sounded like, and simply time, I'm hoping some here will be willing to revisit some of the trailers and TV spots and decide whether they think they include Williams music. Some may not care but this has been bothering me. 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

First, the terrific second teaser:

 

 

Pieces of evidence, make of them what you will...

 

- A JKMS employee said:

 

Quote

John only wrote the first teaser.....and two options for the second - however, Disney went ahead and had a music house compile something for the second without really consulting him. I'm sure, in his beautifully diplomatic way, he told them to just continue that way and leave him to work on the score. Other than the first teaser, Johns only "involvement" is the use of an actual cue from the film opening one of the TV spots (a beautiful flute solo in G minor).

 

- Orphan, a music house, and composer Felix Erksine contributed music: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1729255957300758&id=1558088014417554. They're the same people who made the much-derided "modern" Force theme version used in some of the late TV spots.

 

- Here's the trailer audio with vocals removed: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9NHlKeHNpZlNodjg/view

 

- Here's an unused version of the trailer music, completely clean (and most of it sounds nothing like JW, although you never know): 

 

 

As a side note, love the timpani at 19:54 (they didn't make it into the final second teaser, but it is in the 60-second spot below). 

 

- John Williams recorded his music for the teaser "just within the last week or so" before its release, according to someone on FSM (can't find the link right now). 

 

- The possibility has been raised by someone here that the actual trailer music could have been based on JW's rejected cue. After all, if JW really only recorded a week before release, then the music house would have had only a few days to get the music ready. They may not have had time to start from scratch. 

 

- There was a Facebook conversation some of you may have seen. It's not publicly available and I've never seen it but Stefancos shared it at one point (Jay took it down). I'm not sure whether that had anything useful. 

 

- This, and all the ones below, don't really sound anything like what was in JW's film score (unlike the first teaser JW music, which sounded very much like the score). Of course, that could just be because JW's sense of drama told him that this trailer music needed to be more "epic" than anything in the actual score.

 

Secondly, the 60-second TV spot (specifically the bit after the Jedi Steps, starting at :40):

 

 

 

- Some have thought that this sounds like JW's teaser cue and the final second teaser music must be an adapted version of JW's teaser cue. 

 

- There's a similarity to the AOTC original finale (such a similarity also exists in the second teaser alternate from the red carpet video; in fact, notice that the figure before Yoda and the Force in both this TV spot and the teaser alternate are much more "intelligent" and less "vanilla" than the one that ended up in the final TV spot):

 

 

Could be evidence that it's JW, or of a temp track for the music house to work with.

 

- So perhaps this TV spot has part of JW's rejected cue, the alternate from the red carpet video was by the music house based at least in part of JW's cue, and then the music house strayed away a little farther from JW's intentions to make the music that was heard in the teaser's final version. 

 

- As far as I know, no music house claimed credit for the TV spot. 

 

While we're at it, this as well: 

 

 

- Orphan and Felix Erksine "helped create the music": https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1813216525571367&id=1558088014417554

 

- "Helped create" is similar wording to what was used on teaser one, which we know was completely JW. Apparently the music house designed synths doubling on various instruments and minor stuff like that on that teaser. So them taking "credit" doesn't necessarily mean they had a large role. It's important to remember that in regards to all these videos. 

 

---------------------------------

 

So, thoughts?

[Roll the Bones 2,967]

Deleted shot at 0:20 of the last video?

For the Teaser: 0:00-0:17 Might be Williams 0:17-0:30 Williams 0:30-end Trailer House

[Skelly 255]

45 minutes ago, Will said:

- John Williams recorded his music for the teaser "just within the last week or so" before its release, according to someone on FSM (can't find the link right now).

 

You mean the very very first teaser, right?

[artguy360 1,473]

Unless I'm mistaken this is the case regarding JW and the music in the trailers:

JW did the music for the very first teaser for TFA.

The tv spot uses a slightly altered Jedi Steps.

 

[King Mark 2,924]

I don't think anything in the second teaser is by Williams himself

[Roll the Bones 2,967]

12 minutes ago, king mark said:

I don't think anything in the second teaser is by Williams himself

Not even the cue taken directly from the ANH album?

[Manakin Skywalker 2,940]

The music from the Red Carpet video isn't an alternate/unused version, it appears to be a demo of the 2nd trailer music, before any orchestration took place.

[crumbs 11,754]

The music at the end of the Jedi Steps TV Spot definitely sounds "fuller" than the equivalent version in the final second teaser trailer. Still hard to tell, but maybe it is an excerpt from Williams' unused teaser 2 music?

[BloodBoal 7,532]

[Will 2,049]

12 hours ago, Skelly said:

 

You mean the very very first teaser, right?

 

No, the second. Williams also recorded music for the second, as evidenced by the Facebook post I mentioned....

 

Quote

John only wrote the first teaser.....and two options for the second - however, Disney went ahead and had a music house compile something for the second without really consulting him. I'm sure, in his beautifully diplomatic way, he told them to just continue that way and leave him to work on the score. Other than the first teaser, Johns only "involvement" is the use of an actual cue from the film opening one of the TV spots (a beautiful flute solo in G minor).

 

... as well as some comments from LA musicians in an old article about playing at recording sessions with JW for both teasers: http://members.afm.org/im/john-williams

12 hours ago, artguy360 said:

The tv spot uses a slightly altered Jedi Steps.

 

 

I'm not talking about the Jedi Steps bit. I'm talking about what comes after. 

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

The music at the end of the Jedi Steps TV Spot definitely sounds "fuller" than the equivalent version in the final second teaser trailer. Still hard to tell, but maybe it is an excerpt from Williams' unused teaser 2 music?

 

Yes, I agree that it sounds fuller. I actually preferred it to the teaser's corresponding bit when I heard it. So, yeah, some here think it could be some of JW's unused cue and that the music house based their teaser music off JW's (hence the similarity). 

10 hours ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

The music from the Red Carpet video isn't an alternate/unused version, it appears to be a demo of the 2nd trailer music, before any orchestration took place.

 

Huh. I was just kind of assuming that the music house's orchestration was pretty sparse (which would actually be smart in this case; it would give the sound effects lots of room). 

[Skelly 255]

Okay, I think I'm finally starting to wrap my head around this.

So JW wrote, and was involved in the recording of, two distinct pieces for the second teaser, intending for one to be used and another discarded/unused, but the trailer editors mashed the two together.

And we think part of the unused bit is a variation of "Jedi Steps" as heard in the 60s TV Spot, since the endings to both teaser 2 and that spot are about the same.

Am I on the right track?

[Will 2,049]

4 hours ago, Skelly said:

Okay, I think I'm finally starting to wrap my head around this.

So JW wrote, and was involved in the recording of, two distinct pieces for the second teaser, intending for one to be used and another discarded/unused, but the trailer editors mashed the two together.

And we think part of the unused bit is a variation of "Jedi Steps" as heard in the 60s TV Spot, since the endings to both teaser 2 and that spot are about the same.

Am I on the right track?

 

You're on the right track but you're assuming something that I don't think we should assume.

 

John Williams composed two options (pieces) specifically for the second teaser. These were recorded with an LA studio orchestra, reportedly about a week or so before the teaser's release. These two options could have been very similar or very different. We don't know. In any case, Williams probably was expecting the trailer creators to take one of the options and place it onto the teaser.

 

Instead, a music house (Orphan and Felix Erksine) was hired to "compile something without really consulting" JW. What they compiled for the final version of the teaser could have included:

 

a) Bits of JW's two options.

b) Music the music house composed themselves. It could be based on JW's two options. 

c) Music lifted directly from JW's past SW scores (possibly with pitch shifting and other edits). 

 

You assumed that the compilation only included bits from JW's options but that may not be the case. 

 

In the case of the 60 second TV spot, no music house has claimed credit, suggesting that the trailer creators did a simple cut-and-paste job using music from the Lucasfilm archives. The music they used was Williams' Jedi Steps cue from the film (that's the music heard in the spot before Han says "You might need this") and some of what's probably unused music for the end of the second teaser (that's what we hear after "You might need this" in the spot). The music after "You might need this" was either composed by Orphan/Erksine (possibly based on JW's options) or is actually part of one of JW's options. There are some people here that think it was part of one of JW's two pieces. 

 

We probably won't know exactly how this all worked out until when/if the sheet music and/or recording sessions for JW's two options leak. Until then it's mostly just guesswork.

 

As a side note, I'm not sure exactly how this fits into everything but some sheet music for teaser 2 recording sessions is online (it's probably been posted before, but I'll post it anyway):

 

http://www.thebeardedtrio.com/2015/04/heres-sheet-music-from-force-awakens.html

 

This sheet music may be for JW's two options. But it's possible that the music house recorded the final music with orchestra later and that's what this sheet music is from. 

 

I'll go through what we have page by page.

 

 

Above is the opening page. The top says, "Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer Music." We can see the two celesta clusters that we hear at the beginning of the final version of the teaser. Interestingly the vibraphone is used. I'm not sure if that's common, but if not it could be evidence that we're looking at JW orchestration. 

 

It's hard to see much on this one above, but this page covers the lines from "The Force is strong in my family" to "You have that power too" (the narration is at the top of the page). 

 

 

Above is a better look at the top of that page. 

 

I could do a breakdown of what staff each instrument can be found on and such but that would take a while so I'm going to skip that. But with some of your own deductive reasoning between pages you can start to piece some things together. 

 

Moving on, below we have a different page (only part of the top of the page, unfortunately).

 

 

I'm not sure where the above page fits but it's definitely not one of the ones I've shown already.

 

Lastly, here's some part of some page, below. It's not the "Force is strong in my family" one, but beyond that I cannot say which it might be. 

 

 

@Jilal and @loert and @Sharkus Malarkus, what can you make of this sheet music? Does it seem like Williams or a music house? Does it match up with what we hear in the second teaser (below)?

 

 

(Version with music isolated: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9NHlKeHNpZlNodjg/view)

 

Some parts seem to match up but I'm not sure if it all does. 

 

And if anyone here knows something about JW's involvement in trailers/TV spots they don't what to share publicly, you can always PM me! 

 

My God, so many incredibly musically knowledgeable people (including Frank Lehman, Jilal, and Sharkus) have praised Williams's teaser 2 composition. It almost seems like, "How could it not be mostly Williams, given what they've said?"

[Skelly 255]

I shot an email off to Erksine asking if he might elaborate on his and Orphan's involvement in molding the music of Teaser 2. Hopefully he'll be able to add a little clarity to the situation.

[Will 2,049]

11 minutes ago, Skelly said:

I shot an email off to Erksine asking if he might elaborate on his and Orphan's involvement in molding the music of Teaser 2. Hopefully he'll be able to add a little clarity to the situation.

 

Cool, thanks!

 

EDIT: Woah, that's my 1,000th post!

[crumbs 11,754]

Wow, didn't realise we had sheet music. Does that line up with the trailer music? I can't read much sheet music...

[Will 2,049]

19 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Wow, didn't realise we had sheet music. Does that match line up with the trailer music? I can't read much sheet music...

 

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. I can't really read it either. I mentioned Jilal, Sharkus, and loert, who can, so hopefully they'll respond. 

[karelm 2,355]

My opinion is the "terrific second teaser" is a sweetened version of the original LSO trilogy.  They are using old recordings that are heavily modified and sweetened with synths.  For example, the opening "force theme" is from A new Hope but was digitally transposed with extra pads underneath. I believe this because I transposed the original with the trailer and could see they blended 100% in pitch, duration, phrasing, etc.  Even a retake couldn't match so closely.  I believe JW wrote a series of trailer cues that were cut and used by production houses as needed.  None are 100% JW but they might all have some of it.

 

The sheet music of the trailer is fan made.

[Will 2,049]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

 

The sheet music of the trailer is fan made.

 

Really? I'm surprised a fan would go to so much effort, using such detailed and coloristic instrumentation that is probably not entirely evident just by listening, even to the best -- and to make it look extremely realistic -- both in page layout and the fact that it is neatly bound and has a nice cover.

 

That would be quite a fan project. Do you know for sure it's fan made?

1 hour ago, karelm said:

My opinion is the "terrific second teaser" is a sweetened version of the original LSO trilogy.  They are using old recordings that are heavily modified and sweetened with synths.  For example, the opening "force theme" is from A new Hope but was digitally transposed with extra pads underneath. I believe this because I transposed the original with the trailer and could see they blended 100% in pitch, duration, phrasing, etc.  Even a retake couldn't match so closely.  

 

Well, OK, since @Fennel Ka also thinks that Force theme statement is from ANH, I guess that's probably the case. And I'd guess you think Yoda and the Force and the ending blast with timpani are tracked from TESB. But what about the celesta opening, the religioso music over Vader's helmet, and the triumphant Force theme and brass hits before Yoda and the Force?

[Tom 2,726]

Fortunately, the film itself was 100% Williams, though I recall some jackass around here who was convinced Bill Ross and others composed huge chunks of the film score itself. 

 

I doubt Williams does any original trailer music going forward.  Unless the trailer is all Daisy. 

[Will 2,049]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I believe JW wrote a series of trailer cues that were cut and used by production houses as needed.  None are 100% JW but they might all have some of it.

 

Do you have any inside info or are you just presuming based on the info we all have? 

 

As far as I know, JW recorded music at a three hour session for the first teaser shortly before its release, and two options for the second in a three hour session shortly before its release. Is that what you mean by "series of trailer cues"? 

[Roll the Bones 2,967]

The Celesta opening reminds me of The clash of Lightsabers.

[karelm 2,355]

7 hours ago, Will said:

 

Really? I'm surprised a fan would go to so much effort, using such detailed and coloristic instrumentation that is probably not entirely evident just by listening, even to the best -- and to make it look extremely realistic -- both in page layout and the fact that it is neatly bound and has a nice cover.

 

That would be quite a fan project. Do you know for sure it's fan made?

 

Well, OK, since @Fennel Ka also thinks that Force theme statement is from ANH, I guess that's probably the case. And I'd guess you think Yoda and the Force and the ending blast with timpani are tracked from TESB. But what about the celesta opening, the religioso music over Vader's helmet, and the triumphant Force theme and brass hits before Yoda and the Force?

 

Die hard fans could certainly spend the time to create a tangible copy of something they do not have.  If this were the product of JKMS, JW would never hire them again.  There are basic errors. There are two second trumpets.   There would be very seasoned professionals working on this but here is a very junior editing mistake.  There are four note chords played by three trombones.  The solo horn phrasing of the very iconic theme is incorrect and in a fundamental way.   The title font does not fit the professional template.   The coil binding looks like its from Kinko's.  This is a transcription.  We also know that the trailer sessions pre-dated the trailers. So JW did not write to pre-existing material. That means he wrote a series of extracts, moods, or risers (almost like library) cues that could be later tailored and embellished for the trailers by a trailer production company.

[Jay 27,216]

Will that sheet music is absolutely fan made. And yes, fans do stuff like that all the time. 

[Manakin Skywalker 2,940]

As someone who has put a ton of effort into hoaxes before, I'm inclined to believe this is fake. With the right person, and the right material, this could have been done easily by a fan.

 

(Not to mention that cover looks atrocious)

[crumbs 11,754]

I wonder if any musicians would spill the beans about the trailer cues recorded?

 

Either way, the unused trailer cues seem ripe for an iTunes Deluxe Edition release of TFA... one day...

[Jay 27,216]

iTunes?

ITUNES?

What do you have against physical media, or even letting other digital vendors sell an expanded TFA set?

[Skelly 255]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Either way, the unused trailer cues seem ripe for an iTunes Deluxe Edition release of TFA... one day...

 

You're kidding!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Apple Music surely? Streaming only!

[Will 2,049]

19 hours ago, karelm said:

 

The title font does not fit the professional template.  

 

I did notice that one, at least, with made me skeptical. But I gave the benefit of the doubt...

 

Oh well, thanks for clearing that up. 

 

19 hours ago, karelm said:

 

We also know that the trailer sessions pre-dated the trailers. So JW did not write to pre-existing material. That means he wrote a series of extracts, moods, or risers (almost like library) cues that could be later tailored and embellished for the trailers by a trailer production company.

 

Woah. I always assumed that, at least for JW, he wrote full cues to actual footage (even though it wasn't necessarily locked and he might write multiple options). 

 

What does it mean when the JKMS employee says he wrote "two options" for the second teaser, though? Then makes it sound like he wrote two full cues, not a series of "library" bits. 

[Skelly 255]

I think Williams was not unfamiliar with that concept. I recall reading somewhere that, when Phantom Menace went through a meat grinder in the editing room, he had to write a few brief overdubs to help mask harsh music edits. Not exactly the same situation here, of course, but he's written "library" cues like that before.

[Will 2,049]

@Skelly

 

Nothing back from Erksine?

 

So... The "final verdict" seems to be that we still have no idea about any of this.

 

They may include some JW music or they may not.

 

Some think JW wrote "library cues" and some think he wrote full cues. 

 

I guess we just have to wait and hope for a sessions leak... Fingers crossed. 

[Skelly 255]

Nope, nothing. Either he hasn't had the time to sit down and write a thorough reply, or he only deals with business-related messages.

If he ever does write me back, I'll try to remember to let you all know.

[BloodBoal 7,532]

[Disco Stu 14,067]

Oh man. Spader's mustache in Lincoln gives my favorite performance of the movie. Might switch avatar back to him...

[BloodBoal 7,532]

[Will 2,049]

On 10/1/2016 at 10:14 PM, Fennel Ka said:

For the Teaser: 0:00-0:17 Might be Williams 0:17-0:30 Williams 0:30-end Trailer House

 

I was just thinking about this and am now almost 100% certain you are correct (although Yoda and the Force could be tracked from TESB). 

 

Now, of course, the question is whether :30-end is based on JW's two options. Which is impossible to know at this time. 

 

Would you agree that the TV spot with the "I see your eyes" line is probably by a trailer house and/or tracked from TESB?

 

That would leave the second half of the 60-second spot. Of course, that JKMS employee didn't mention it in his Facebook post:

 

Quote

Other than the first teaser, Johns only "involvement" is the use of an actual cue from the film opening one of the TV spots (a beautiful flute solo in G minor).

 

So that's certainly evidence it's not JW. But on the other hand, my gut tells me it might be.