The John Williams Jurassic Park Collection from La-La Land MUSIC Discussion

[Josh500 1,616]

14 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I was talking about Williams fans dude. I generally don't give a fuck that the "general public" thinks of these things. I'm a snob that way.

 

OK, fair enough. 

 

But, in the case of JP, it's got a massive fanbase (not as large as Star Wars or Harry Potter, sure, but still large enough), so they are not to be underestimated. They are the ones that bought the bulk of the OS album of JP, after all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

25 million people bought the Titanic score. I would consider very very few of them as genuine soundtrack fans.

 

Again, I'm actually a bit of a snob that way.

 

"Oh, you are a film music fan because you back the More Music From Gladiator album? That's great!"

[Josh500 1,616]

17 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

25 million people bought the Titanic score. I would consider very very few of them as genuine soundtrack fans.

 

No, but I'm thinking many many people became soundtrack fans after they bought Titanic.

 

I wasn't a soundtrack fan either in 1993. Then I bought Jurassic Park on CD... and the rest is history.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

Oh true. The Titanic score is one of those seminal 1990's one that got a lot of people interested in film music. But it's still slightly suspect. Simply because of the numbers it's sold.

[Josh500 1,616]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Oh true. The Titanic score is one of those seminal 1990's one that got a lot of people interested in film music. But it's still slightly suspect. Simply because of the numbers it's sold.

 

 

Well, the massive success of this album can be explained with 2 words: Celine and Dion.

 

Most people bought the album for the song, of course, not the actual score. The score was just a nice bonus.

 

Still, kudos to James Horner for writing the excellent score... and the Celine Dion song, as well. 

[publicist 4,647]

Even the score is far from excellent - though it probably helped Titanic's giant success that it wasn't more sophisticated.

 

This fan prefers TLW in any way, shape or form - it's not high art but really much more fun and intense. And less kids (though still too much).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

1 hour ago, publicist said:

though it probably helped Titanic's giant success that it wasn't more sophisticated.

 

The cheesy synth aspect actually greatly works in it's favour. And the score would be less without them.

[publicist 4,647]

It's not even (just) the 80's synth and their elevator charm, the whole underscore often feels so untextured and surface-level (haha) that together with 'Avatar' i always wondered if Horner worked backwards one year, going from gripping and intricate to limp and simplistic. I blame Cameron for both but of course it must have been the happiest accident of his career to have Cameron breathing down his neck.

[John Dutton 7,503]

Try listening to the Titanic SACD with the electronics minimized. It's so weird.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

There's a part of Horner's musical sensibility that has always gravitated towards kitsch. Cameron seems to have encouraged that aspect of him.

It certainly works.

[John Dutton 7,503]

Some of the synths are in no way corny, like the eerie ghostly sounds towards the end of "Death of Titanic". That was perfect scoring.

[publicist 4,647]

The only way i ever listen to that score is Horner's idealized version on 'Back to Titanic' and even that seems like being culled from better scores. 

 

Kitsch and all is great, but not done in an idiom the composer not truly understands/embraces. I can listen to Yanni to get that but Horner putting simple syncopated voices and meager orchestrations front and center...it's just not right. He was a symphonic composer who did pop reluctantly. It wasn't his strong suit and 'Titanic' is, imho, testament to that. 

 

I give you that it suited the movie (perfectly realized but depressingly daft) but my final verdict remains that 'The Perfect Storm' remains Horner's best song of the sea.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

The pennywhistle with the synth piano though....

[publicist 4,647]

It melted the hearts of teenage girls everywhere. Yes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

1 minute ago, publicist said:

I give you that it suited the movie (perfectly realized but depressingly daft) but my final verdict remains that 'The Perfect Storm' remains Horner's best song of the sea.

 

The Perfect Storm is a score I listened to a lot during the summer last year. It's great, evocative music. But it convinced me to never ever watch the film. I'm actually convinced it has to be overbearing in the movie unless Wolfgang turned the volume way down.

[publicist 4,647]

Wolfgang didn't and it didn't go down too well. But it is a score - warts and all - that features Horner unabashed and with the right amount of broad symphonic thought behind it that it actually resembles an opera (i refrain from the term 'symphony'). Al lot of the scores he did in between 'Deep Impact' and 'The Missing' have this huge sweep to them. None of them ever tries to re-create 'Titanic' aesthetics....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

The Perfect Storm sounds more like Braveheart plus Apollo 13 to me, with the obligatory dash of Sneakers. There's very little Titanic in it.

[publicist 4,647]

That's what i mean. If he really would have 'felt' Titanic it sure would have cropped up more in his later scores. As far as i can tell only the wordless synth background chorus ever was repurposed. And it's fucking Horner we are talking about.

[John Dutton 7,503]

Listening to Titanic right now. I could never hate on this score. I love 80s and early 90s Horner too, yet I still loved this score right from the start.

[publicist 4,647]

Why should you hate it? Compromised as they may be, i dearly love a lot of later Horner scores, more so than much better classic scores by better composers. So there.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

Oh Titanic is wonderful. Horner is brilliant at this kind of long-form musical storytelling. I'll happy deal with some of the cheese.

[Lyon1631 0]

I'm sure someone already pointed it out (read through a bit, but not all), but there are still at least two pieces I've noticed that are still missing from TLW: (1) The Hunt film version insert where Carter gets blasted through the vehicle by the Pachycephalosaurus, and (2) the Ripples film version. If it's already been pointed out, just disregard haha. I've made my own edits, as close to the film versions as I could get from what's most similar, just for my own personal enjoyment.

absolutely love these, especially The Lost World. Jurassic Park was one of the first movies I saw and the scores to that and Hook have been something I've been looking forward to since I was in kindergarten. I remember rewinding and re-rewinding the VHS tapes just to specifically try and listen to the music under everything else (i.e. the croc-clock scene lol) and making my family let the entire ending credit sequences play to the end so I could listen to the music.

[John Dutton 7,503]

Ripples film version is basically the original version. What did you edit differently?

The other music was tracked.

[Brundlefly 2,395]

12 minutes ago, Sandyford1633 said:

(1) The Hunt film version insert where Carter gets blasted through the vehicle by the Pachycephalosaurus

One of the instances where parts of "Ludlow's Demise" occured in the movie.

[Lyon1631 0]

1 minute ago, Rose Dawson said:

Ripples film version is basically the original version. What did you edit differently?

The other music was tracked.

In the film, Ripples begins with the low drum beating, then there's a synth brought in when Sarah turns the lamp off (a similar synth in the original version, but different), then strings come in playing with the drum beat, then the horn splats come in until Carter wakes up; it builds more simply and methodically, not the fits and starts in the original. To my ear it's not attainable from the original version.

If The Hunt percussion piece is tracked I haven't run across it, just the little percussion piece in Ripples (when Roland is loading the dart) which is similar sounding but the bass hits are too close.

6 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

One of the instances where parts of "Ludlow's Demise" occured in the movie.

Oh, I know that one, I mean the percussion piece before that comes in, when the Paleontologist is explaining how the Pachy neck lines up with its head for impact...

[Brundlefly 2,395]

That's from Visitor in San Diego.

6 minutes ago, Sandyford1633 said:

To my ear it's not attainable from the original version.

That's why I'm wondering why everyone claims it's just looped.

[Lyon1631 0]

15 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

That's from Visitor in San Diego.

That's why I'm wondering why everyone claims it's just looped.

Which part is from "Visitor in San Diego"? I think you're talking about the percussion when Ludlow's chasing them up the ship? If so, I mean after that, there's a short little percussion piece in between the part from "Visitor..." and "Ludlow's Demise" used for the scene.

[Jay 39,762]

 

23 minutes ago, Sandyford1633 said:

the percussion piece before that comes in, when the Paleontologist is explaining how the Pachy neck lines up with its head for impact...

 

[Incanus 5,818]

While I understand peoples' attachment to the film versions as that is the version of the music they usually first experience, unless the film version is either a complete alternate or perhaps contains an insert I usually don't bother with recreating film edits of Williams' music. And in my opinion The Lost World works brilliantly the way Williams originally composed and recorded it.

[crumbs 14,904]

It's probable Matessino couldn't get the exact film edit without going to the film stems anyway. It would've been nice to have from a curiosity standpoint (ala the film edit of the finale & end credits) but the cue is brilliant in its original form. It's a mildly different situation anyway; I believe Williams oversaw the revised finale edit when it wasn't what Spielberg wanted, but probably had no input creating the film version of Ripples.

 

I guess it's disappointing the film version can't be recreated editorially using the expanded set (the music editor clearly had access to takes without synth overlays, and used sweeteners to hide the edits, etc).

 

Who knows, maybe MM tried to get it on there as a bonus and Williams asked to remove it?

[Jay 39,762]

The box set contains everything Williams wrote and recorded for the film.  If the music editors cobbled together some curiosities using bits of what he recorded for the final film during the end of post production, those edits are not recreated for these kinds of sets typically.

[crumbs 14,904]

From what I can deduce, the film version of the Rex tent scene is Ripples:

1:15 - 1:35 looped twice

2:54 - 3:12 minus synth overlays quietly brought forward in mix

The synth when the Rex shadow appears over the tent is probably SFX

2:54 - 3:12 again minus synth

3:04 - 3:08 the looped tense strings here comprise the majority of the film edit

 

Then they've taken some of the brass punches from 3:12-3:24, isolated them from the percussion (alternate take?) and used these to hide the loop points of the tense strings (leading up to Carter screaming). In the original track, the brass is underscored with percussion leading up to Carter screaming; this is replaced with these repeating strings in the film edit.

 

The music is mixed very quietly throughout and the Rex noises are kept loud to mask the edits. It's brilliant for what it is, but presumably at full volume and isolated from the sound effects, the editing would be obvious.

 

The seeming slow build of the orchestra volume is probably just clever mixing. They created a 2 minute 'bed' of those strings and the lighter percussion, then just gradually increased the volume to give the illusion of a live orchestra building louder (while adding extra elements like the brass).

[Jay 39,762]

Nice work!

[John Dutton 7,503]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

The box set contains everything Williams wrote and recorded for the film.  If the music editors cobbled together some curiosities using bits of what he recorded for the final film during the end of post production, those edits are not recreated for these kinds of sets typically.

 

True, but there are weird exceptions in various releases ie film versions I would never want to listen to and seemingly have no place on a complete score release. Even this set includes the film edit of the finale.

[Jay 39,762]

It's a new edit, it does not match the film edit (despite what they labeled it as)

[John Dutton 7,503]

It's still an edit.

[Jay 39,762]

The composer requested that each score end with a "finale" instead of a bonus track.

[Lyon1631 0]

On 3/20/2017 at 6:40 AM, crumbs said:

From what I can deduce, the film version of the Rex tent scene is Ripples...

You're probably right Crumbs.

[crumbs 14,904]

3 hours ago, Sandyford1633 said:

You're probably right Crumbs.

 

Is that an attempt at humour?

[Richard P 4,269]

On 3/20/2017 at 1:13 PM, Jay said:

The box set contains everything Williams wrote and recorded for the film.  If the music editors cobbled together some curiosities using bits of what he recorded for the final film during the end of post production, those edits are not recreated for these kinds of sets typically.

 

Doesn't change the fact that A) it's what we heard in the film, and B) it can't be recreated using what we have.

 

I would think that sufficient reason to at least try to include it. To me, the film edit is wonderfully subtle and haunting, with its gradual build. The original version doesn't have the same effect. I may be a minority, but I prefer the film version.

 

Thing is, you buy a soundtrack to relive what you heard in the film. If an entire release were comprised of 'early' versions that didn't sound anything like what ended up in the final film, then you wouldn't really be buying the 'soundtrack'. Hence, if a film version is drastically different, then the composer's original intention should be the bonus - I want to hear what I loved from the film. Whether it was an edit is irrelevant to the purchaser.

[John Dutton 7,503]

I was disappointed this set didn't have the film version of "T-Rex Rescue & Finale" with the fanfare theme at the end instead of that weird alternate album version with the predator motif.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,445]

Sigh...

[Richard P 4,269]

I prefer the film version of that too. In fact, my edit has the island theme spliced in.

 

I also made a version of Ceiling Tiles with the TLW piece edited in. As logically questionable as they are, I love how they work musically.

[Lyon1631 0]

15 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Is that an attempt at humour?

Lol, no, I was being serious, you are probably right that it's not an actual existing piece.

8 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I want to hear what I loved from the film. Whether it was an edit is irrelevant to the purchaser.

 

I agree Richard. Though I want all the music, the piece I originally loved and that had my particular attention was what I heard when I saw the film, such as the Ripples sequence. I think the film edit did actually work more appropriately with the scene rather than the other version, because it was more subtle and tense, not as incidental and explicit almost as the original idea. That's how I hear it, though it could just be because I'm so used to having heard the film version a thousand times that any other version sounds awkward.
Ultimately I couldn't be much happier having this 4cd release, so it's really not a big deal. I just had my tastebuds primed for the film version and my expectations were somewhat disappointed.
So, I just have to settle for the (almost) film version I made for fun

 

[John Dutton 7,503]

8 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I prefer the film version of that too. In fact, my edit has the island theme spliced in.

 

I also made a version of Ceiling Tiles with the TLW piece edited in. As logically questionable as they are, I love how they work musically.

 

Well, it works fine in the film, but I was kidding about that one.

 

There are some film edits that were pointlessly included on expanded releases. Some good examples are Charge of the Batmobile from Batman and Prisoner Exchange from Star Trek: Generations. Why those were included, we'll never know.

[Muad'Dib 1,876]

I've been meaning to ask: what's that instrument that does a sort of PLANK! at 2:17 in The Hunt? Is it a harp? An electric guitar? It plays for only that moment never to be heard again.

 

What is it?! It's been driving me nuts.

[Incanus 5,818]

I think it is just a fast piano stab. The cue calls for "metallic piano" synth sound for part of the composition so that could well be it. Someone who is more fluent in "music" could probably help us out.

[RedBard 71]

On 3/26/2017 at 1:30 PM, Selina Kyle said:

I was disappointed this set didn't have the film version of "T-Rex Rescue & Finale" with the fanfare theme at the end instead of that weird alternate album version with the predator motif.

 

It's a real shame, to say the least.

 

If only there were somebody who could do a realistic MIDI mockup of the cue as it was supposed to sound.

[Brundlefly 2,395]

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

I've been meaning to ask: what's that instrument that does a sort of PLANK! at 2:17 in The Hunt? Is it a harp? An electric guitar? It plays for only that moment never to be heard again.

 

What is it?! It's been driving me nuts.

Piano stab, at least I never doubted that.

 

But I've often thought about the pianist who had to sit there three and a half minutes just for that moment.

[RedBard 71]

2 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

I've been meaning to ask: what's that instrument that does a sort of PLANK! at 2:17 in The Hunt? Is it a harp? An electric guitar? It plays for only that moment never to be heard again.

 

What is it?! It's been driving me nuts.

 

Processed waterphone.

 

But yeah, it's a piano cluster in the higher registers.