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The John Williams Jurassic Park Collection from La-La Land MUSIC Discussion


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48 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Sadly, no.  The sheet music leak only has versions with the re-used passages photocopied in in place of whatever was originally there.  In fact, it's possible the original passages were never orchestrated and only exist on JW's original sketches.

 

 

Orchestrated cues must exist if the story is true: If musicians were struggling trying to play the cues...the photocopies must have been made during the recording sessions... wouldn't them?

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So...I visited the official Jurassic world exhibition yesterday...and look what I found in the tyrannosaur panel ... Anyone see something familiar? LOL

There's a clear throughline of brilliant thematic development in the complete chronological score (The Island's Voice motif) that is simply absent on the OST. JW re-ordered his score into a haphazard

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Here's a suggestion, in no way meant to be condescending: why not spend a bit of time to learn to read music notation? You're a musical person and will learn it in no time. The best way to learn it is through learning to play an instrument. May I suggest the piano, since that's a one-man orchestra in itself.

Early this year I just picked up Doug's LotR book and a free online virtual piano (with no real musical education basis) and started trying to play motifs, looking up symbols like keys and semitones and stuff when it didn't sound right. I was quite proud of some of them but the virtual piano's limitations were hard to work around - semitones were only accessible when holding shift+the key, so more complex chords were just impossible unless I recorded them in multiple passes one note at a time, etc.. Even so, I picked up basic stuff in no time.

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3 minutes ago, ChrisAfonso said:

 

Doesn't this motif even open the first track of JP3? This is such a signature sound for JP (also featured strongly in the moments leading up to the "theme" part in Journey to the Island) that for me it's as evocative of dinosaurs as the low e-f ostinato is of sharks...

To me it represents also the breathing purr of the raptors.

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13 minutes ago, ChrisAfonso said:

 

Doesn't this motif even open the first track of JP3? This is such a signature sound for JP (also featured strongly in the moments leading up to the "theme" part in Journey to the Island) that for me it's as evocative of dinosaurs as the low e-f ostinato is of sharks...

 

It absolutely does! 

 

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Thi

14 minutes ago, ChrisAfonso said:

 

Doesn't this motif even open the first track of JP3? This is such a signature sound for JP (also featured strongly in the moments leading up to the "theme" part in Journey to the Island) that for me it's as evocative of dinosaurs as the low e-f ostinato is of sharks...

This motif appears in a few places in JP. There are a few statements before the big grandiose theme for the Brachiosaurs in "Journey to the Island". 

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27 minutes ago, Holko said:

Early this year I just picked up Doug's LotR book and a free online virtual piano (with no real musical education basis) and started trying to play motifs, looking up symbols like keys and semitones and stuff when it didn't sound right. I was quite proud of some of them but the virtual piano's limitations were hard to work around - semitones were only accessible when holding shift+the key, so more complex chords were just impossible unless I recorded them in multiple passes one note at a time, etc.. Even so, I picked up basic stuff in no time.

 

That's great! You could also purchase a cheap, small midi keyboard and connect to the PC if you want to have keys to play on.

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8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That's great! You could also purchase a cheap, small midi keyboard and connect to the PC if you want to have keys to play on.

Yep, I might do that.

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57 minutes ago, Jay said:

OK here are the spots in The Lost World score where they re-used passages they knew the musicians could play instead of whatever JW originally intended

  1. 3-09 Spilling Petrol and Horning In [5M3/6M1 Part II Horning In] 3:52-4:01 ≈ 3-13 Rescuing Sarah [8M2 Truck Stop] 1:15-1:21
    • This was originally written for 8M2, in bars 110-122.  You can see in the 5M3/6M1 Part II sheet music that:
      • page 1 (bars 1-4) is fine
      • page 2 (should be bars 5-8) actually only has bars 5-7, then the original bar 8 is scribbled out
      • page 3 (should be bars 9-12), the original bar 9 is scribbled out and then you can see the obvious photocopying in of bars 110-112 of 8M2, though the percussion part of bar 8 is different (and the bar numbers are changed to now be bars 8-10)
      • [...]
  2. 3-13 Rescuing Sarah [8M2 Truck Stop] 3:18-3:29 ≈ 4-01 Ripples [10M1 Rialto Ripples] 3:34-3:44
    • This was clearly written for 8M2 and later repurposed into into 10M1

 

These passages get stranger the longer you look at them. What you describe is actually the same passage from "Rescuing Sarah" (3:18), up to 3:42 (3:52-4:15 in "Horning In"), respectively 3:54 (3:34-4:08 in "Ripples") in the sheet music, but only "Horning in" contains bars 110-112 as written - the other two have an extra prominent line in the horns that doesn't show up anywhere in the written score. "Ripples" b114-115 (3:44-3:46) has the horn rips omitted that are heard in the other two places.

(Rescuing Sarah 1:15-1:21 is a similar, but different passage)

 

I'm curious where the "Passages copied due to performance problems" story comes from? - I'd guess it takes less time to rehearse a passage and do a few more takes than to change the score around, copy and distribute the parts again. Also the "scribbled out" bars before and after the copypasted segment look like they didn't contain anything beforehand and were already laid out that way to line up with the page breaks of the inserted bars. Without any additional inside knowledge, this looks like a planned repetition to me, e.g. to adapt to a re-cut film scene.

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18 hours ago, ChrisAfonso said:

 

These passages get stranger the longer you look at them. What you describe is actually the same passage from "Rescuing Sarah" (3:18), up to 3:42 (3:52-4:15 in "Horning In"), respectively 3:54 (3:34-4:08 in "Ripples") in the sheet music, but only "Horning in" contains bars 110-112 as written - the other two have an extra prominent line in the horns that doesn't show up anywhere in the written score. "Ripples" b114-115 (3:44-3:46) has the horn rips omitted that are heard in the other two places.

(Rescuing Sarah 1:15-1:21 is a similar, but different passage)

 

You're right, I fixed up my post

 

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I'm curious where the "Passages copied due to performance problems" story comes from?

 

Great question!  I honestly don't remember, and I don't think it would have been mentioned in the LLL booklet that JW & co would have approved.  I'll have to do some googling to see where I first read about that.  Maybe it's a rumor that isn't actually true - I dunno!

 

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- I'd guess it takes less time to rehearse a passage and do a few more takes than to change the score around, copy and distribute the parts again.

 

20 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Orchestrated cues must exist if the story is true: If musicians were struggling trying to play the cues...the photocopies must have been made during the recording sessions... wouldn't them?

 

Sorry, I realize I wasn't clear.  The story I read (or at least, the way I remember it) was that the orchestra struggled with some of the earliest cues recorded - but they did get through it, it just took a while.  So then ahead of subsequent recording days, JW changed some tricky passages before they ever got a chance to even attempt them.  And he changed them to passages from cues they had already laid down that he knew they could do again, rather than writing something new.

 

Quote

Also the "scribbled out" bars before and after the copypasted segment look like they didn't contain anything beforehand and were already laid out that way to line up with the page breaks of the inserted bars. Without any additional inside knowledge, this looks like a planned repetition to me, e.g. to adapt to a re-cut film scene.

 

What I'm speculating is that in JW's original sketch for 5M3/6M1 Part II, there would have been an actual original passage we've never heard from bars 8-20.  But that during the orchestration process, the orchestrators were instructed to not orchestrate those bars, but to instead photocopy the pages containing bars 110-122 of 8M2 (which were already orchestrated from a prior day's recording session) instead.  So yea, I guess my little bit about page 7 becoming page 6 wouldn't be accurate in this case, and I'll word that better

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23 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I thought these kind of session musicians could sight read anything? 

 

Reading is just the start, being physically able to play it (well) might not be so easy, depending on what's written. 

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@Jay definitely let us know if you remember the source for that rumor. I admit it seems unlikely to me - LA studio musicians are truly cream of the crop, and Williams has a very extensive understanding of what's playable on each instrument. I don't deny that the bars in question were photocopied, but that's very common. It typically just results from C.S. (come sopra) indications in the sketch, where the composer calls for existing material to be reused.

 

But then again, stranger things have happened!

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Yea, I really can't remember where or how I read it.  I tried doing some brief googling last night but it's kind of hard to google for something like that.

 

I think I most likely read it here on JWFan, though I doubt whoever posted it provided a source or anything, so who knows, it could all be untrue.  I dunno

 

I'll see if I can find anything

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Presumably JW's original manuscripts would have the original passages, right?

 

I wonder how he handles revisions and so forth in those leather-bound books? Maybe they just get stuffed at the end.

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As @Datameister just mentioned, they would have original passages if they exist, but would have indications of what to copy from other cues if they were planned to be that way all along

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23 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I wonder how he handles revisions and so forth in those leather-bound books? Maybe they just get stuffed at the end.

 

What we need to do is make sure that a JWFan has access to them at Juilliard after the inevitable happens.   I'd bet that @Falstaft would be able to manage it!  I'm not suggesting any illegal distribution of materials, just a report of what's in there!

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OK, finally found one reference to what I'm talking about!

 

On 11/26/2016 at 2:40 PM, Sharkissimo said:

Allegedly the orchestra and the Latin drum ensemble found Truck Stop/Rescuing Sarah extremely challenging, and John got a little frustrated on the podium, so maybe they had to resort to multiple takes on other cues.

 

On 11/26/2016 at 2:43 PM, Incanus said:

So does that mean that Williams repurposed/reused some of the action material from the Truck Stop for the Rialto Ripples with just minor changes then?

 

On 11/26/2016 at 2:46 PM, Josh500 said:

Yeah, I've read it too somewhere. 

 

The orchestra reportedly had a really tough time getting some of the cues, especially the percussion heavy cues, right. The orchestra had to play some of pieces over and over and over again....

 

I'm thinking "Sarah's Rescue" and "Ripples" were just two of these.

 

I'll keep digging for more!

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21 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Sorry, I realize I wasn't clear.  The story I read (or at least, the way I remember it) was that the orchestra struggled with some of the earliest cues recorded - but they did get through it, it just took a while.  So then ahead of subsequent recording days, JW changed some tricky passages before they ever got a chance to even attempt them.  And he changed them to passages from cues they had already laid down that he knew they could do again, rather than writing something new.

Oh, I see. Shame we may never see the original work...

 

BTW... He kind of pulled a "Star Wars Prequels treatment of the music" there :P

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

OK, finally found one reference to what I'm talking about!

 

 

 

 

I'll keep digging for more!

 

Very interesting. The percussion parts aren't hard enough to require any insane technical chops (other than simple endurance)...if that rumor is true, I feel like it would probably be one or both of the following:

 

  • The percussionists weren't grooving the way Williams wanted, and they had to try different variations
  • The balance/mix was tough to get right

 

I have a much easier time imagining the orchestra or conductor getting lost in something like "Rolling With Grievous" - you've got the time signature changing at almost every measure. TLW's drum grooves are pretty repetitive and easy by comparison (but super effective!).

 

Again, though, I could be wrong here.

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That's really interesting - I wonder whether there was a transition from 'laser-focused' Williams getting more and more frustrated that the orchestra was having trouble, to a possible realisation that he'd written something too tricky.

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Fascinating!!!

 

If you can find your copy and post pictures of that japanese booklet, that'd be great!  We should be able to automatically translate it with OCR

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3 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Well shit! I hope it's the same edition!

 

Same here. LOL. It sure looks the same as the other listing which says

 

Quote

Comes housed in a unique 'dinorama' cardboarddigipak with fold-out 3D artwork, information on four of the dinosaur species featured in the film & a promo stickered wraparound tracklist obi MVCE-24011

 

We'll see.

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1 minute ago, Josh500 said:

Pretty sure the most interesting info in that booklet is the one I already mentioned... Otherwise I'd still remember it mself. :D

 

Still is cool to have and would be nice to have the whole booklet translated

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38 minutes ago, Jay said:

Fascinating!!!

 

If you can find your copy and post pictures of that japanese booklet, that'd be great!  We should be able to automatically translate it with OCR

 

Nah, I definitely don't have it anymore. I actually had to rebuy most of my earliest JW CDs because they were so badly scratched (I didn't know how to take care of my stuff back then!).... And TLW was one of them. The replacement was most definitely not the Japanese version. 

 

Just now, TSMefford said:

 

Still is cool to have and would be nice to have the whole booklet translated

 

That's for sure! 

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Weren't all the percussion elements recorded separately on TLW anyway?

 

I thought someone recorded the percussion-only tracks off a speaker at Universal Studios. That would've been a cool bonus feature on the LLL! I assume Mike tried and JW nixed it.

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1 minute ago, Smeltington said:

 

You better not find it now. That would be a terrible way to repay TSMefford for his sacrifice!

 

I hope it's not like, just one really vague sentence about the scoring sessions that comes out weirdly translated.

 

TSMefford's Noble End  :nopity:

 

Like I said, I doubt there's much more than that. If there was something else noteworthy, I'm pretty certain I'd remember it! It was just a little booklet that was added to the Japanese edition, probably because it was felt there that the original version was a bit too meager and lacking.... 

 

But there's another issue. I'm not even sure this little booklet is still included today. That's what they did in 1997, back when it was just released.

 

But I don't wanna be negative, I guess anything is possible! 

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39 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I've got a Japanese edition, but it's a reprint and with a black obi instead of a yellow one. And there's no Japanese booklet.

 

Seriously? 

 

Well, that's what I suspected. If one really wants that old booklet, one has to go on these auction sites and actually buy the old release from 1997 or thereabouts.... It'd definitely be not an easy undertaking. Like hunting down the First Edition of a classic novel or something. 

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