The Official Don Davis Thread

[mstrox 7,342]

I like that Kernis piece a lot, thanks for sharing!

[Jurassic Shark 16,376]

It reminds me of the Matrix!

[Marian Schedenig 11,616]

10 hours ago, mstrox said:

I like that Kernis piece a lot, thanks for sharing!

 

His other symphony that I know, titled Second Symphony (I think there's a third one, too?) is also cool.

 

I first encountered Kernis the very first time I got to hear film music in a concert setting, at an early 2000s concert by the RSO Vienna (who people here know from the Hollywood in Vienna concerts), conducted by Karen Kamensek. I bought a ticket so I could hear the Empire Strikes Back suite and was rewarded by also discovering Adams's Short Ride in a Fast Machine, Corigliano's Chaconne for a Red Violine, and Kernis's New Era Dance.

[Richard P 5,261]

Is it true that Davis took time out of film to compose Rio De Sangre and it took him ages and by the time he was done he couldn't get film work?

 

It feels like one of those popular myths for why someone doesn't work in Hollywood any more. I find it hard to believe that someone who's done some big movies and has the tech wouldn't be able to find assignments.

[karelm 3,271]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Is it true that Davis took time out of film to compose Rio De Sangre and it took him ages and by the time he was done he couldn't get film work?

 

It feels like one of those popular myths for why someone doesn't work in Hollywood any more. I find it hard to believe that someone who's done some big movies and has the tech wouldn't be able to find assignments.

 

I doubt it.  I think he just didn't like scoring films where you have to take your orders from someone who might not care that much about music or end up asking you to follow the temp and maybe just replace much of it with a DJ.  It's a business and not that pleasant if you aren't given substantial creative liberties with directors who adore you and your contributions like JW.  So more like Goldenthal who seems to only compose his personal projects or Julie Taymor projects.  

[Thor 9,349]

Just now, karelm said:

 

I doubt it.  I think he just didn't like scoring films where you have to take your orders from someone who might not care that much about music or end up asking you to follow the temp and maybe just replace much of it with a DJ.  It's a business and not that pleasant if you aren't given substantial creative liberties with directors who adore you and your contributions like JW.  

 

Well, I don't know how, exactly, the collaboration between Juno Reactor and Davis worked on the MATRIX films, but the result is amazing. So something good came from it.

[thestat 497]

Never really got this. Davis disappeared after Matrix Revolutions to do his opera, resurfaced to do a dodgy Renny Harlin - John Cena film (way before Cena was cool) and disappeared again.

 

My reckoning, based on absolute guess work, is that he got black listed for not playing the Hollywood game and following the Matrix trilogy with a set of similar films (still don't know WHY he did not do this - he'd been doing much worse films with awesome music for decades (Seaquest; Warriors of Virtue) so it does not make much sense to pull out right at the total peak of success).

 

And he'd been ghosting for everyone in Hollywood for decades as well, composing some of the best music coming out of the factory.....

 

Why let go when you are finally at the peak? Weird.

[karelm 3,271]

35 minutes ago, thestat said:

Never really got this. Davis disappeared after Matrix Revolutions to do his opera, resurfaced to do a dodgy Renny Harlin - John Cena film (way before Cena was cool) and disappeared again.

 

My reckoning, based on absolute guess work, is that he got black listed for not playing the Hollywood game and following the Matrix trilogy with a set of similar films (still don't know WHY he did not do this - he'd been doing much worse films with awesome music for decades (Seaquest; Warriors of Virtue) so it does not make much sense to pull out right at the total peak of success).

 

And he'd been ghosting for everyone in Hollywood for decades as well, composing some of the best music coming out of the factory.....

 

Why let go when you are finally at the peak? Weird.

 

I don't think he got black listed, I think he just doesn't enjoy film scoring.  Except for a handful, maybe just one person, it's really a business and that scene is not for everyone.  

[thestat 497]

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

 

And to do what? Goldenthal had the same response but he is a recognised classical legend....Davis is not

[karelm 3,271]

Just now, thestat said:

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

That's a major difference though, ghosting and orchestrating, your client is a composer.  The composer is the one handling the business.

[thestat 497]

Karelm - I'm trying to get your perspective here. So, from a business perspective, if I was to contact a certain JH, I might get work done by a certain DD. Fine. What's the point?

Oh, Karelm you are trying to say that it does not matter who composes, as long as you deliver the package. Fair enough. I am still interested in WHO composes as we fans hear that stuff. Look at Horner and Davis on Clear and Present Danger Karelm .....

 

Karelm - do come back to us with some wisdow as we need to know how the industry works - your comments make as much sense as Bakshi's Cool World.

 

[Kirkinson 4]

7 hours ago, thestat said:

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

Depending on how much money he made from the Matrix trilogy, the difference could be that he decided he didn't really need to do work he didn't enjoy anymore. Or at least not as much of it.

[karelm 3,271]

14 hours ago, thestat said:

Karelm - I'm trying to get your perspective here. So, from a business perspective, if I was to contact a certain JH, I might get work done by a certain DD. Fine. What's the point?

Oh, karelm, you are trying to say that it does not matter who composes, as long as you deliver the package. Fair enough. I am still interested in WHO composes as we fans hear that stuff. Look at Horner and Davis on Clear and Present Danger.....

 

Karelm - do come back to us with some wisdow as we need to know how the industry works - your comments make as much sense as Bakshi's Cool World.

 

I'll explain this scenario that soured me.  I was hired a year ago to score an animated film and given a relatively nice package.  The music would be challenging and I got to work on it right away not yet having seen any of the film because it was CGI animated/semi animated so what I would see were just green screens and concept art.  I composed very good music (if I can say so) that I was proud of and saw a rough cut of the film (maybe 25% of the cgi/animation were in place.  I then got word that the team had fallen in love with royalty free temp score that they edited to but wanted to retain me but now adapt the royalty free music.  I said, but wait, I would charge you the contractually agreed fee regardless if they use my music or not because I created it even though they went the free route.  I was now competing with generic free music and told I had to compose exactly like that music because it was approved already.  So in what scenario would they pick my full price music that was already composed just for them but not like the generic royalty free music if they got what they needed for free music and any original music would have to follow the exact same rhythm, beat, style, of the temp?  I did it for one cue and said screw this - it was zero joy just to write music exactly like what they were getting for free but mine would be the full price we agreed to.  They would just say for each cue, we'll take the free one instead because mine would be just like the free one but cost alot more.  I told them, I'll let them off the contract and let's go separate ways and the original music I composed is fully mine to do whatever I want with but this issue of having to compete with very generic royalty free music is becoming more and more common and far less creative or interesting for the composer.  Something very similar happened to Davis on Matrix where DJ music was brought in replacing some of his music and he was told to merge his style to blend with them.  At the very least, it was insulting, and he didn't take it well, plus very uninteresting to the composer.  This sort of approach is more and more common now.  There are some composers through various methods (maybe they have a music production team or are improvisors), but for those of us who want to sit at a desk and craft a well-conceived score that helps tell the story, it's frustrating and very unnerving that at any moment, even if they haven't heard the score, they might say the direction has changed and they're going with the generic free music.  For some people who are fine with this being a business and they produce a product, it's probably not that big a deal but others actually love music and prefer working in settings that are more collaborative and supportive of that goal.  I spent the rest of last year working on personal projects and very specific collaborations that were far more rewarding than doing the grind of writing music directly for directors then having it tossed for something easy to edit to or someone else had just gotten used to.  I hope that explains the scenario better.

[Muad'Dib 2,039]

15 minutes ago, karelm said:

I'll explain this scenario that soured me.  I was hired a year ago to score an animated film and given a relatively nice package.  The music would be challenging and I got to work on it right away not yet having seen any of the film because it was CGI animated/semi animated so what I would see were just green screens and concept art.  I composed very good music (if I can say so) that I was proud of and saw a rough cut of the film (maybe 25% of the cgi/animation were in place.  I then got word that the team had fallen in love with royalty free temp score that they edited to but wanted to retain me but now adapt the royalty free music.  I said, but wait, I would charge you the contractually agreed fee regardless if they use my music or not because I created it even though they went the free route.  I was now competing with generic free music and told I had to compose exactly like that music because it was approved already.  So in what scenario would they pick my full price music that was already composed just for them but not like the generic royalty free music if they got what they needed for free music and any original music would have to follow the exact same rhythm, beat, style, of the temp?  I did it for one cue and said screw this - it was zero joy just to write music exactly like what they were getting for free but mine would be the full price we agreed to.  They would just say for each cue, we'll take the free one instead because mine would be just like the free one but cost alot more.  I told them, I'll let them off the contract and let's go separate ways and the original music I composed is fully mine to do whatever I want with but this issue of having to compete with very generic royalty free music is becoming more and more common and far less creative or interesting for the composer.  Something very similar happened to Davis on Matrix where DJ music was brought in replacing some of his music and he was told to merge his style to blend with them.  At the very least, it was insulting, and he didn't take it well, plus very uninteresting to the composer.  This sort of approach is more and more common now.  There are some composers through various methods (maybe they have a music production team or are improvisors), but for those of us who want to sit at a desk and craft a well-conceived score that helps tell the story, it's frustrating and very unnerving that at any moment, even if they haven't heard the score, they might say the direction has changed and they're going with the generic free music.  For some people who are fine with this being a business and they produce a product, it's probably not that big a deal but others actually love music and prefer working in settings that are more collaborative and supportive of that goal.  I spent the rest of last year working on personal projects and very specific collaborations that were far more rewarding than doing the grind of writing music directly for directors then having it tossed for something easy to edit to or someone else had just gotten used to.  I hope that explains the scenario better.

 

Very interesting, I've experienced something similar in my very small carreer as a short-film composer, particularly on a series project that I backed down from.

 

Karelm, are you allowed to tell us the name of the animated film? I'm curious about it.

[karelm 3,271]

23 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

Very interesting, I've experienced something similar in my very small carreer as a short-film composer, particularly on a series project that I backed down from.

 

Karelm, are you allowed to tell us the name of the animated film? I'm curious about it.

 

I won't name the project even if I'm allowed to.  I have no idea what future projects might exist.  

[Muad'Dib 2,039]

You're right, my apologies.

[mstrox 7,342]

Was it shrek 

[GerateWohl 6,475]

Thanks @karelm for that insight.

It makes sense to me that Davis in the meantime might only work in the movie business for money l, but basically rather burns for his non-movie projects. 

 

As it seems that - at least in Hollywood - the movie business is less and less a place for passionate lovers of classic movie scores. 

When I look at the past years and this years Oscar nominees, except Williams, If I was 10 years old today I would not become a film music fan anymore. (I am not even sure, if I would become a pop music fan today, but that is a different Story).

[Jurassic Shark 16,376]

9 hours ago, karelm said:

 

Of course I won't name the project even if I'm allowed to.  I have no idea what future projects might exist.  It's also irrelevant and unprofessional.  You are kind of asking for specifics of who you had bad sex with because "I'm curious about it" - it's rude to talk specifics.  Take this as a general example.  

 

You know, you could have declined to answer in a polite manner. There's nothing wrong with being a bit curious. And no, nobody wants to know who you're having sex with.

[mstrox 7,342]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

And no, nobody wants to know who you're having sex with.

Was it shrek 

[Richard P 5,261]

The issue karelm raises is interesting because I think there are some projects for which original music is essential because the music is so front and centre, but there are some where the music takes more of a back seat and the music just seems to be... there. In those cases, it has always struck me as easier to use production music.

 

In theory it means less work for composers generally, but would it be better to simply acknoweledge upfront that you're going to use production/royalty free music instead of putting a composer through what you did?

[Disco Stu 15,517]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Was it shrek 

 

[Jurassic Shark 16,376]

46 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

In theory it means less work for composers generally, but would it be better to simply acknoweledge upfront that you're going to use production/royalty free music instead of putting a composer through what you did?

 

I guess things can change during the production. 

[karelm 3,271]

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Thanks @karelm for that insight.

It makes sense to me that Davis in the meantime might only work in the movie business for money l, but basically rather burns for his non-movie projects. 

 

As it seems that - at least in Hollywood - the movie business is less and less a place for passionate lovers of classic movie scores. 

When I look at the past years and this years Oscar nominees, except Williams, If I was 10 years old today I would not become a film music fan anymore. (I am not even sure, if I would become a pop music fan today, but that is a different Story).

John Williams told my class, I really have no advice for how to make it now, things have changed so much since when I started, I doubt I would make it today.  

2 hours ago, mstrox said:

Was it shrek 

Yes.

[Jurassic Shark 16,376]

This pre-Matrix track gives me The Matrix vibes. Perhaps it was used as a temp track?

 

 

[GerateWohl 6,475]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

This pre-Matrix track gives me The Matrix vibes. Perhaps it was used as a temp track?

 

 

It is like The Matrix run through a tonal harmonization and decelleration clarity filter.

[29944 32]

100 years of METROPOLIS (1927) – new music by Don Davis

[Marian Schedenig 11,616]

Ah yes, I was going to mention that… I'm not sure what I think of the general concept of re-scoring Metropolis over and over again now that the original Huppertz score is readily available. But Davis is of course a perfect fit. I hope I'll get to hear a live performance of this one day.

[Thor 9,349]

I've also grown tired of the endless METROPOLIS re-scores. I love the original Huppertz, and I love the Moroder (and a few others), but there's a saturation point. There are so many other, less famous silent films out there that composers could attempt.

[crocodile 9,640]

I don't care for another score for Metropolis. But I will take a new Don Davis epic.

 

Karol

[Davis 3,957]

22 minutes ago, Thor said:

There are so many other, less famous silent films out there

But none of them are so famous and influential, especially in the sci-fi genre as METROPOLIS. 

With that said, I'm bored with all the rescores, too. Don't these composers have anything better to do than to write a score to a silent film that was released almost a 100 years ago, and already has at least 5 different scores?

[Edmilson 12,261]

I know a sci-fi movie that already has a score but could really benefit from a Don Davis re-score.

 

It's this one:

 

[Van_Etten 118]

Curious if there will be a live recording of this for everyone to hear or even new bluray home release. Abel Korzeniowski's score didn't make it so far.

[Marian Schedenig 11,616]

Since Metropolis is a "respected" film, there's also a chance that it might be performed live to projection in concert halls. The Wiener Konzerthaus has a film cycle every year that mostly consists of re-scored silent films, so maybe that'll end up there someday. It wouldn't be the first time they showed Metropolis (but the one I saw & heard had a lousy score).

[crocodile 9,640]

11 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I know a sci-fi movie that already has a score but could really benefit from a Don Davis re-score.

 

It's this one:

 

I don't think this film would benefit from anything really. Nor would Don Davis from watching it.

 

Karol

[Richard P 5,261]

13 hours ago, JTN said:

Don't these composers have anything better to do than to write a score to a silent film that was released almost a 100 years ago, and already has at least 5 different scores?

 

Given Davis hasn't done anything major, film-wise (certainly not in Hollywood) for what, two decades now? I'd be thankful for any music we get from him at all. Clearly either Hollywood doesn't want him or he doesn't want Hollywood.

 

Although if he could take a moment from whatever he is doing right now to approve an expanded JP///, that would be great 

[Naïve Old Fart 12,923]

Well, what score is on my METROPOLIS DVD (free, this week with the Sunday Times) - and, no, it's not all those poncey songs, either?!

[tomsmoviemadness 4,785]

 

[Holko 12,023]

Awesome! I wonder which Hollywood reject they'll get for Caligari's 110th...

[crocodile 9,640]

Another Kickstarter? 😀

 

Karol

[Holko 12,023]

Same orchestra so hopefully the same deal!

[Thor 9,349]

Good on Davis, keeping busy. Of course, there have been a hundred scores for METROPOLIS over the years, beyond the original Huppertz. Moroder's remains a favourite, and I hope we get a proper, commercial release of Korzeniowski's wonderful effort as well.

 

Expecting loads of dense tone clusters for this.

[Marian Schedenig 11,616]

Generally, I'm doubtful about endlessly rescoring silent film classics when they have a perfectly find original score available. For Metropolis, the Huppertz score wasn't exactly available (certainly not as a recording) when most of the previous rescorings were made, but we have it now.

 

On the other hand - Don Davis, hell yes!

 

49 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Another Kickstarter? 😀

 

Only if they don't record the organ properly.

[Thor 9,349]

39 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Generally, I'm doubtful about endlessly rescoring silent film classics when they have a perfectly find original score available

 

I like the idea of rescoring silents, but I wish composers chose something other than METROPOLIS, NOSFERATU and CALIGARI all the time. So many silent, less-known gems that could be interesting to explore.

 

14 years ago, I was really impressed by the new score that Bugge Wesseltoft wrote for the Brazilian arthouse silent LIMITE (1931), which I saw live in the then-relatively-new Oslo opera house (my Google Translated review here). Stuff like that, I'd like to see more of.

[crocodile 9,640]

True. It would be much better for them to rescore modern films. 😆

 

Karol

[Edmilson 12,261]

34 minutes ago, crocodile said:

True. It would be much better for them to rescore modern films. 😆

 

Like the fourth Matrix movie 

[Davis 3,957]

29 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Like the fourth Matrix movie 

There is no fourth Matrix movie. 

[crocodile 9,640]

31 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Like the fourth Matrix movie 

Why did you have to remind me there was one? 😭

 

Karol

[Dr. Know 487]

 

I don't think this curious concert work has been mentioned in this thread. It was commissioned by the LA Pops and premiered in 1990.  Parts of it seem clearly inspired by "The Rocketeer" which was released in 1991.  I always wondered how that could be -- a mere coincidence, or was Davis involved in orchestrating Horner's score?  In any case, I really enjoy this rousing piece.

[Edmilson 12,261]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Know said:

I don't think this curious concert work has been mentioned in this thread. It was commissioned by the LA Pops and premiered in 1990.  Parts of it seem clearly inspired by "The Rocketeer" which was released in 1991.  I always wondered how that could be -- a mere coincidence, or was Davis involved in orchestrating Horner's score?  In any case, I really enjoy this rousing piece.

IMDB doesn't list Davis specifically in The Rocketeer, but he did work quite a lot with James Horner during the 90s. Some say he did more than just orchestrating...